2012 Malaysian Grand Prix

[Blaze_409]

Because that's how the racing line works.

Vettel had just come out of a right-handed corner. The racing line eases to the outside of the track - where he contacted with Karthikeyan (and Karthikeyan moved slightly right on Vettel too - I agree with Famine here, 50:50). After that, the drivers drift back over to the right of the circuit for the left-hander.

It's not rocket science. Drivers don't exit a corner and immediately get in position for the next corner - they take the line of least resistance. It was just unfortunate for Vettel that another car was in that spot a little longer than he expected.

You miss the point.Vettel had already "eased the resistance" by taking a very late apex in order to get on the inside of Karthikeyan.He already did the work...He was going in a straight line at that point...He was not moving to the left.because there was no need..


Drivers dont just follow the racing line like a bunch of drones....They're not attracted to it like opposites.The racing line is the line the car naturally takes to get most exit speed.Vettel had aready exited the corner and was going straight.

 

[Alex p.]

KT was following the racing line, he didn't turn to the right any more than he failed to turn away.

He simply did the same has he had done time-after-time lap-after-lap previous. Againt, doesn't clear him of fault, be he didn't turn into SV.

*facepalm*

PLEASE, just watch the video again.

 

[homeforsummer]

You miss the point.Vettel had already "eased the resistance" by taking a very late apex in order to get on the inside of Karthikeyan.He already did the work...He was going in a straight line at that point...He was not moving to the left.because there was no need..

Drivers dont just follow the racing line like a bunch of drones....They're not attracted to it like opposites.The racing line is the line the car naturally takes to get most exit speed.Vettel had aready exited the corner and was going straight.

Vettel was still exiting the corner. His on-board makes that pretty clear. If he had already exited the corner, why wouldn't he already be over on the right hand side ready for the next one, miles away from Karthikeyan? Oh yeah, because that isn't how the racing line works.

 

[Blaze_409]

Skip to 46 seconds. Watch Narains left rear tire move away from the curb. That shows that he moved not Vettel. Dont look at the car..Look at the tires.

 

[Famine]

Meh I dont see it. Watching it from the front makes it even more obvious...The next corner was a left hander so why would the racing line be on the left at that point. they both where drifting right. Vettel sort of went straight even though the track was changing direction. Karthikeyan just went right. and instant slashing. I just watched one of vettel tires and its distance from the side of the track and not much really changes. even though the curb/white lines are curving he appears to just follow that.

When i look at the cars i cant tell whats going on because rightly so I shouldnt be able to without and reference points. When you watch the tires and distance to the curb you should see who moves.

You have multiple reference points in the image, including, but not limited to, the other cars.

Pause at 46s and notice the Marussia ahead. He is effectively uninvolved and on the racing line - the track goes slightly to the right for the next left-hander and the racing line moves from the left side of the track (where Karthikeyan actually is) all the way across it, sharply, to the right side of it. Notice that Karthikeyan is effectively on the far left on the racing line (though some distance shy of the kerb and line) while Vettel is a car width and three feet away from it, alongside Karthikeyan.

Resume and pause at 48s. Karthikeyan has effectively moved forwards to a position just shy of that the Marussia occupied at 48s. He has moved slightly to the right too, by about 3 feet with respect to the white line. Vettel has now reached the exact position of the Marussia - beating the HRT by a full car length. He has also moved roughly 4 feet to the left with respect to the white line so that he now occupies the racing line.

Move to 51s and pause. Note where the McLaren is to the left of frame, pointing slightly to the left of centre - with respect to rear view he's on the right hand side of the track moving slightly right and he's on the racing line. Note where the Marussia is, centre top of the frame, on the kerb and pointing significantly left - with respect to rear view he's on the left hand side of the track moving grossly right and he's on the racing line. Look behind and left of the HRT is obscured but the Red Bull is some distance away from the side of the track and there is no obvious orientation of the car - the Red Bull is in the centre(ish) of the track and because the track moves to the right but he is not moving to the right, he will close with the left side of the track.

Play through to 53s and pause. The camera has moved slightly but the Marussia is now where the McLaren was (roughly). The Marussia is important - the HRT has followed in its tracks on the racing line and moved left with respect to camera (right with resepct to the rear view) and has gone from being close to the kerb to being about 3 feet away from it - but the Red Bull has not. Notice where the Red Bull was at 51s (to the left of the Marussia) compared to every other car (Marussia to the right of McLaren, HRT to the right of Marussia) and where it was heading (straight at the camera) compared to every other car (from right of frame to left of frame). The only way the positions and movements can be explained is if three of the cars were following the racing line while the fourth - the Red Bull - was moving with relation to it.


Both cars moved laterally. It is, however, still a racing incident. Karthikeyan should not (under F1 rules) have moved with the line until the lapping car was clear, but Vettel had no need to move back to the racing line as it was crossing his path anyway!

Are you kidding yourself there? KT had plenty of space to move to the left or stay where he was (in a straight line) but no, he has to turn to the right, where another car is, so what are you talking about?

Even if Vettel moved, there was NO need whatsoever for KT to move to the right, he HAD the space to avoid it=fact.

It should be easier for him to judge the distance than for Vettel, obviously.

Read all, then comment. Quoting one line you want to disagree with as an excuse to be vitriolic does not make for sane discussion. I quite clearly said that Karthikeyan shouldn't have moved, so what are you talking about?

 

[F1 fan]

Yes, what's your point?

My point is pretty clear. You said how he was quite ridiculous when not in the best car. He was running fourth. Precisely one place behind the guy who was in the best car.

Hardly ridiculous in my books.

 

[Blaze_409]

You have multiple reference points in the image, including, but not limited to, the other cars.



It is, however, still a racing incident. Karthikeyan should not (under F1 rules) have moved with the line until the lapping car was clear, but Vettel had no need to move back to the racing line as it was crossing his path anyway![/color][/b]

To the first part....In trying to understand who does the moving why would you reference other moving cars :? You reference stationary objects.Things you know are not moving(the side of the track has no velocity)...

To the second part you said it but then you undid it lol. The racing line was crossing his path anyway...So he wouldnt be moving in the opposite diagonal direction right?(so hard to describe). And he doesnt based on the replay.

 

[Alex p.]

Skip to 46 seconds. Watch Narains left rear tire move away from the curb. That shows that he moved not Vettel. Dont look at the car..Look at the tires.

At second 51 it gets BLATENTLY obvious that KT turned in on him, so I agree with you. How can people not see it? Vettel is pretty much going in a straight line.

 

[Alex p.]

Read all, then comment. Quoting one line you want to disagree with as an excuse to be vitriolic does not make for sane discussion. I quite clearly said that Karthikeyan shouldn't have moved, so what are you talking about?

I'm talking about the 50:50 part, that's just nonsense.

And a wall of text won't change that, sorry.

 

[homeforsummer]

Skip to 46 seconds. Watch Narains left rear tire move away from the curb. That shows that he moved not Vettel. Dont look at the car..Look at the tires.

Look at both cars. The front-on image is easiest to see - Vettel moves to the right of the frame (/left of the track) as much as Karthikeyan moves to the left (/right of the track) - only after they contact does Vettel start moving to the left of the frame (/right of the track).

I'm not defending Karthikeyan's move here but it was very obviously a move that Vettel could have avoided simply by not cutting right back to the line he wanted far too soon.

And a wall of text won't change that, sorry.

It certainly won't change a stubborn opinion over your favourite driver, that's for sure.

 

[Alex p.]

It certainly won't change a stubborn opinion over your favourite driver, that's for sure.

Thx for proving you have no idea what you're talking about. First off, I don't even know who my favourite driver is.

Also, after seeing the incident live and Vettel's interview afterward, I wasn't really convinced that KT was at fault, but after seeing the footage in slow motion from different angles, there can only be one right conclusion.

 

[Famine]

To the first part....In trying to understand who does the moving why would you reference other moving cars :? You reference stationary objects.Things you know are not moving(the side of the track has no velocity)...

Not necessarily.

Moving things are their own frames of reference. These things include cars and cameras. Non-moving things are their own frames of reference. These things include painted lines, kerbs and the racing line.

To the second part you said it but then you undid it lol. The racing line was crossing his path anyway...So he wouldnt be moving in the opposite diagonal direction right?(so hard to describe). And he doesnt based on the replay.

He had no need to be, but he did. Take screenshots at the times I said and superimpose them over each other.

I'm talking about the 50:50 part, that's just nonsense.

Except the part where it isn't.

And a wall of text won't change that, sorry.

Nothing will change the mind of someone who just wants to spit bile over something they've already made their mind up about. Especially if they don't even bother to read it.

 

[homeforsummer]

Thx for proving you have no idea what you're talking about. First off, I don't even know who my favourite driver is.

It's a fair guess, given how stubborn you're being about it.

And it's "thanks", not "thx".

Also, after seeing the incident live and Vettel's interview afterward, I wasn't really convinced that KT was at fault, but after seeing the footage in slow motion from different angles, there can only be one right conclusion.

Obviously not, because if you actually watch the footage impartially rather than coming to a conclusion and deciding that what you're seeing supports that conclusion, then you'd see that it's a 50:50 incident. Not entirely Vettel's fault, but not entirely Karthikeyan's either.

 

[Blaze_409]

At second 51 it gets BLATENTLY obvious that KT turned in on him, so I agree with you. How can people not see it? Vettel is pretty much going in a straight line.

good question. I dont know what we are seeing that some people arent. They seem to think there is some mysteriously racing line that vettel was chasing that was going in the opposite direction of the the actual racing line. Its even more clear at 51secs that Karthikeyan just turned into vettels rear thinking

Its probably a consequence of the fact that none of the drivers can even see there front wings...So its mix of KT and the regulations fault. but i dont see how vettel is to blame.

 

[Centura]

My point is pretty clear. You said how he was quite ridiculous when not in the best car. He was running fourth. Precisely one place behind the guy who was in the best car.

Hardly ridiculous in my books.

Irrelevant. I was talking about his current emotions.

 

[Blaze_409]

The guy says he would prefer a world without internet and that h thinks of himself as a jackalope..I wouldnt put it beyond him to call someone a cucumber haha. That made my day!

 

[tribolik]

Both cars moved laterally. It is, however, still a racing incident. Karthikeyan should not (under F1 rules) have moved with the line until the lapping car was clear, but Vettel had no need to move back to the racing line as it was crossing his path anyway!

When I saw the Button move I thought to myself cmon Jenson (my favority driver) what an idiot you are not lapping the guy but on the Vettel move things where a lot different. Vettel had allready passed him with 95% of the car, Karthikeyan could not move into the racing line until he was sure Vettel had completed the move because he was under a blue flag (being lapped) so on this one I have to agree with Vettel - what an idiot even if he wasnt being lapped he would have been given a penalty. I dont see the point of defending him on this one. And Vettel didnt go left he went straight and the right to prepare for the next corner. (unless my eyes are deceiving me)

The guy says he would prefer a world without internet and that h thinks of himself as a jackalope..I wouldnt put it beyond him to call someone a cucumber haha. That made my day!

I dont like him very much but I kind of understand him. He didnt say he would like a world without internet he said that if he could he would like to keep it off his life «I think we all use the internet more than we think. I am aware that the internet can do a lot of positive things, but there are also negative aspects and that’s why I believe in a healthy dose of ‘self-limitation’, as of course banishing it is not an option.»
As I said I kind of agree with him after loosing alot of time arguing on racing games forums to no avail

 

[Adam41]

Best view is from 52 seconds. NK definitely turns right, away from the kerb. Vettel doesn't actually turn left towards NK and the racing line. Pause it at 52 seconds, and play/pause it a few times until 54 seconds. At 52 seconds he exits the corner and wobbles a bit with wheel spin. He then stays in a straight line until he is on the racing line. It only looks like he turns left into NK because the track actually veers to the right. NK shouldn't have turned right, Vettel should have aimed for where the other cars (Hamilton) at the bottom of the screen are @ 54 seconds and 'took the shortest route to the next corner' better, rather than keeping straight and being so eager to get back on to the racing line.

My view ^.

 

[homeforsummer]

My view ^.

This man gets it 👍

 

[Centura]

For those in the UK, there's on-board footage of the incident between Vettel and Karthikeyan: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01f02wl/Formula_1_2012_The_Malaysian_Grand_Prix_Highlights/

Jump to 1:42.35.

Vettel, I understand you are frustrated, but there's no point in talking like that in a post-race interview (Look what happened to Hamilton in Monaco '11.). I still love you, though!

 

[F1 fan]

Irrelevant. I was talking about his current emotions.

Well that wasn't clear. They're all guilty of it though. Just watch Lewis' face on the podium in Australia. This is sport. And a particularly dangerous one at that. Emotions run high.

 

[UK-Gamer]

After seeing the footage, I've changed my views on the incident.
KT was gonna go into the wet pain that would've surely spun him out and cause more incidents than one. So he decided to get back onto the racing line.

Vettel, just off passing KT wanted to get back onto the racing line and maybe might've come back too soon.

How could the incident have been avoided? Either KT backs out of the throttle momentarily or Vettel continues off-line for another meter or two. It's those fine measurements that can compromise ones race.

 

[Alex p.]

Nothing will change the mind of someone who just wants to spit bile over something they've already made their mind up about. Especially if they don't even bother to read it.

Sorry to destroy your "argument" here, but as I said, I ALSO first thought that it was the fault of both of them, BEFORE watching the slow motion replay, anyway, you're the "indigo one", with whom most people simply agree because he is who he is...

After seeing the footage, I've changed my views on the incident.
KT was gonna go into the wet pain that would've surely spun him out and cause more incidents than one. So he decided to get back onto the racing line.

Vettel, just off passing KT wanted to get back onto the racing line and maybe might've come back too soon.

How could the incident have been avoided? Either KT backs out of the throttle momentarily or Vettel continues off-line for another meter or two. It's those fine measurements that can compromise ones race.

How would KT spin by going in a straight line, again, there was NO need for him to turn right/case closed, I give up.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Button, bellow perfect as last race. Missed the chance to make changes to the front as Hamilton did. Ruined front on an unnecessary attack...

Hamilton, guess it couldn't go faster.

Grosjean made a brilliant start, and a mess of everything else until putting himself out of the race, finding the time to spin Schumacher.

Perez, clever boy. Fast and clever boy...👍👍

Red bulls, still struggling...👎

Mercs, despite Schumi being spun, they just faded away all race long 👎

Kobayashi again a pleasure to see, sliding it round:tup:👍

Alonzo, that's how he likes to roll! 👍👍👍

Now I do not believe that it's a bad chassis on the Ferrari. A bad chassis would shred tires in these conditions. Not win the race.

As for the Vettel puncture... Get on with it. None of them them thought they'd touch, and they both moved.

 

[Centura]

Well that wasn't clear. They're all guilty of it though. Just watch Lewis' face on the podium in Australia. This is sport. And a particularly dangerous one at that. Emotions run high.

Yeah, I'm sorry, but you're right. It's probably just because it's unusual to see him angry and frustrated after the year he had in 2011.

 

[Famine]

Sorry to destroy your "argument" here, but as I said, I ALSO first thought that it was the fault of both of them, BEFORE watching the slow motion replay

Which in no way affects anything.

anyway, you're the "indigo one", with whom most people simply agree because he is who he is...

Which in no way is relevant to anything, except the parts where I said you just wanted to spew forth bile and vitriol.

 

[UK-Gamer]

How would KT spin by going in a straight line, again, there was NO need for him to turn right/case closed, I give up.

He is on slicks, in a rather botched car, he would've needed to move right anyway on some paint that has loads of standing water, he would've spun or had the back end completely kick out.

 

[Tom]

Myself and Mazda were chatting about Perez and how he made a mistake and went wide, we both came to an agreement that Perez went wide "accidentally-on-purpose" and obviously had the speed but didn't want to upset the Factory team as they supply the engines.

 

[Alex p.]

Which in no way is relevant to anything, except the parts where I said you just wanted to spew forth bile and vitriol.

Thank you for throwing allegations at me, despite tha fact, that I had arguments, backed up by video footage. Indeed, you are who you are.

 

[Lizard]

Myself and Mazda were chatting about Perez and how he made a mistake and went wide, we both came to an agreement that Perez went wide "accidentally-on-purpose" and obviously had the speed but didn't want to upset the Factory team as they supply the engines.

Nah that wouldnt happen otherwise you would have McLaren behind Mercedes.