2014 engines: inline-fours out, turbo-charged V6 engines in

From Wiki:

Mansour Akram Ojjeh is a French Saudi Arabia-born entrepreneur who owns part of TAG, a Luxembourg-based holding company with interests worldwide. Ojjeh is the CEO of TAG which owns 21% of the McLaren Group, the most important asset of which is the McLaren Formula One team.

Yep seems like it :)

So if i got this right, TAG owns 21% of Mclaren Group while he himself owns a 15% stake in Mclaren Racing.
My source was just an article from Mars, 2010 so maybe things have changed since then?

Just read on mclarens wiki that MP4 initially stood for Marlboro Project :) With the change of sponsor it´s now Mclaren Project 4.
 
The MP4 have also meant "McLaren Project Four". Project Four was Ron Dennis's original team that merged with McLaren at the early 80's.
 
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And yet... the possibilities. Like you said... only the Marlboro sponsorship is missing from this picture.

I still remember the days. Couldn't stand the smell of cigarettes (my Dad was an avid smoker of Marlboro reds), but even though I knew little about driving (being in grade school at the time) and even less about F1, I knew these four words: Honda, McLaren, Marlboro, Prost.

Alain_Prost_1988_Canada.jpg


Watching and hearing those things go around a race track on our old Sony Trinitron? Absolute epic.
Forget the V10s and V12s... those were the real golden days of modern F1.
 
This used to be true, Mercedes had a significant percentage ownership in Mclaren. This alliance is not quite what it used to be now that Mclaren has started its own production car program, and builds its own engines.

+1

The alliance took a big hit when Mecedes bought Brawn, created the factory team and sold back 40% of their share. I can't remember exactly why (maybe it was from reading commentaries or quotes at the time), but I remember thinking at the time McLaren were looking to lessen the co-operation even more, so Honda engines could very well be on the horizon.

I do hope the Honda McLaren partnership returns, even if Marlborough cannot. They were the first F1 cars I remember when I first started watching in 89/90, and the reason I've been a McLaren fan since.

Edit:

According to this article, "Mercedes will continue to supply the Formula One team with engines until at least 2015."

But interstingly, Martin Whitmarsh also states in the article the following:

"I think it is about 11% that is still owned by Mercedes but it's not an important or significant number,"
 
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Marlboro is locked in with Ferrari and they still keep the Marlboro advertisement on the cars.

they are just very smart with it :)

2011-Ferrari-F150-Testing-1-1024x652.jpg


Just goes to show how the brain works. Even when they had the bar code only you knew instantly it was Marlboro. And now this "design" instantly reminds you it´s a cigarette pack
 
It's quite odd that everyone thinks of McLaren when Marlboro sponsorship is mentioned. They've been Ferrari's primary sponsor since '93 and have recently extended the deal until 2015.

*tree'd*
 
That could be because most remember the hay days of Senna and Prost running two advertisement boards which clearly said Marlboro.

Ferrari did that in the beginning but now it´s more intergrated and has an effect more unconsciously.
 
Turbo V6 shouts "Next Gen BMW M3" to me, since their M5 is now a V8, you can expect the next M3 to have a V6, which would tie nicely with "Win-Sunday-Sell-Monday" if they decided to come back to F1, even as an engine manufacturer
 
While a turbo-V6 M3 (or I6, which is more likely but not as F1-related) would be nice... I think I'd miss the manic nature of the current V8, which is probably one of the most wonderful engines BMW has ever built.
 
While a turbo-V6 M3 (or I6, which is more likely but not as F1-related) would be nice... I think I'd miss the manic nature of the current V8, which is probably one of the most wonderful engines BMW has ever built.

I agree. I absolutely love the current engine in the M3, but keeping that engine when the M5 has a V8 also would be a bit silly.

And I don't see how Cosworth(Ford, More or less) and Mercedes have grounds to complain. Merc could have easily done a Turbo I4 or even the V6 in a SLK or a C-coupe. Cosworth, they build those engines. Look at all of the Turbo V6's and I4's they've built in the past. Wouldn't these be in their best interests?
 
Likely, money. Changing engine regulations means that those wonderfully expensive V8s that they've spent years perfecting (especially on Mercedes' part) or actually getting to work well (Cosworth) now go out the window and they'll have to spend a ton of money on new engines. Even if they're of similar layout and displacement to engines they currently build elsewhere, the F1 engine will definitely be totally different and will require a huge amount of investment to develop to front-runner status.
 
Marlboro is locked in with Ferrari and they still keep the Marlboro advertisement on the cars.

they are just very smart with it :)

http://images.automodifiedesign.com/2011/02/2011-Ferrari-F150-Testing-1-1024x652.jpg

Just goes to show how the brain works. Even when they had the bar code only you knew instantly it was Marlboro. And now this "design" instantly reminds you it´s a cigarette pack
Not forgetting that until July the official name of the team was Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro. I think the full name was often if not always mentioned for example in the post qual/race press conferences, despite the tobacco advertising ban. Clearly Marlboro is not paying only for the creative logo design.
 
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Subliminal Marlboro package design on the side of the Ferrari... the white shape on the side of the engine cover evokes Marlboro packaging.
 
I'd be suprised if you showed that picture to a non Formula 1 fan and they knew what it was for. I think that because most of us have been watching F1 since xxxx year and know that the Marlboro logo has always been there. And the newer fans would know because they've likely looked at the history of the sport, including the old liveries.
 
Since I have never seen a Marlboro smokes pack I don't know what to look for but are you saying that white triangle box thing that has the work Ferrari in it is the Marlboro packing design?.
 
It's quite odd that everyone thinks of McLaren when Marlboro sponsorship is mentioned. They've been Ferrari's primary sponsor since '93 and have recently extended the deal until 2015.

*tree'd*

Thats because the McLaren was blatantly a rolling cigarette packet whereas the Ferrari's have only ever featured logos but remained predominantly red - a red that is associated with Ferrari and Italy and not Marlboro. Pretty simple really and not odd at all.
If the Ferrari's were covered in Marlboro colours like the McLarens (and Penske's in CART/Indycar) then they would also be associated with it.

It goes to show that its not always such good publicity to sponsor a top team like Ferrari as you won't necessarily be remembered. If Marlboro had sponsored say Williams, McLaren or Renault during 2000-2004 with the same colour scheme of the 80s and 90s, then people would remember Marlboro much more clearly. Its hard to really make an impression on a Ferrari because it will forever be scarlet red.
 
So I've been a bit slow with these regs; I assumed they would be twin turbo V6s, like they were in the 80s. I wonder what the thinking behind the single turbo is (I guess it's harder to get flexible power band and high peak power; variable geometry and the like needed? And such solutions having potential application in road cars?)

Anyway, I was initially excited about this new revelation, because the last time we had six cylinders feeding one pipe at 15000 rpm, we had this:



But then I read that the regulations call for a 90 degree V angle, which is, in a way, disappointing. Ferrari used a 120° V6 in the turbo era (before switching to 90° in '87), Cosworth's was also 120°, whilst Renault, TAG and Honda settled on or near 90°. The 120° engines were even firing, whilst the others were uneven firing. So by the very end of the previous turbo era, we had 14000 rpm V6s that sounded like this:



Of course, we only have three cylinders feeding each pipe there, because of the twin turbos. However, we have the single turbo Renaults as a reference, but their uneven firing engine made them also sound closer to a three cylinder than a six:



Compare with these race-spec Triumph Triples which rev to 14000 - 15000 rpm (skip to about 1:00):



Also, the Aston Martin AMR-One is a good approximation of what an even firing, single turbo six can sound like (although I don't think it revs quite to 15000...)



Now, the 90° V angle doesn't preclude from using an even firing interval, but that would require split crankpins of 30 degrees' separation, which is large enough to require a substantial amount of material between them. Bearing in mind this would increase the length of the crankshaft and increase the bank offset, which, given the bore is fixed at 80 mm, will basically make for a much longer engine, I suspect no-one will go for it. Especially when you factor in the reliability concerns: there's a reason the 18° split crank pins in the Gallardo's 90° V10 were discontinued around the time the R8 V10 appeared. That is, unless, vibration becomes a major issue.

I think I'd prefer the sound of an even-firing single-turbo V6 engine in F1, but I'm by no means against the sound of a three-pot, either. But, the ear drum tearing scream of an F1 car has become iconic, and the danger is an uneven V6's low-pitched growl and snarl will not excite people in the same way. (This also means the X2010 / X2011 in GT5 have inaccurate sounds, given they're basically V8 screamers like the other F1 cars in the game.)

Still, we shall see what happens. :dopey:

Apologies for the monster post!
 
Monster post? It's better than reading FIA technical regs. :lol:

Personally, I'm a fan of growl and sputter rather than screaming. That would allow me to watch F1 at home in full glorious surround sound audio without waking up all the cats in the neighborhood and pissing off my wife. :lol:
 
Monster post? It's better than reading FIA technical regs. :lol:

Personally, I'm a fan of growl and sputter rather than screaming. That would allow me to watch F1 at home in full glorious surround sound audio without waking up all the cats in the neighborhood and pissing off my wife. :lol:

Yeah, the regs are worse than patents! Well, almost.

I don't mind the growl at all; I'll certainly get used to it. I expect there will be lot of disappointment. Then again, I suppose it doesn't do MotoGP any harm, given they're all uneven firing engines of some kind now, and have been for some time (Ducati's new one is practically going to sound like a single, given it's a V-four with a "twingled" firing order.)

Kawasaki did attempt to buck that trend, though:



Sounds familiar, doesn't it? :P
 
jcm
Seriously! I thought I heard that they were going to be included!
Rory Byrne and Patrick Head proposed them in December 2010 for inclusion with the next set of engine regulations (which at the time were going to come into effect in 2013), but when the proposal was formally put to the teams, they rejected it. I believe they felt that the engine and powertrain regulations were already very complex and would provide significant challenges, so they felt that trying to work ground effects into the cars would be too much. After all, the last time there were significant revisions to the technical regulations - in 2009 - the running order was completely turned on its head. Where McLaren, Ferrari, BMW and Renault placed in the top four in 2008, by the end of 2009 they were third, fourth, sixth and eighth. The teams will keen to avoid a repeat of such an episode.
 
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