2014 United Sports Car Championship

[cnd01]

They have not disclosed which teams have purchased these cars, and therefore we don't know how many people will be running them. According to 8Star and Starworks, they both bought/own LMP2 cars and they've both stated they'll run whichever one is deemed more efficient (i.e. either their DP or LMP2).

8STAR owned Starworks LMP2 chassis then rented it out to ESM. 8star is the only team I know of for sure that's going with 1 DP and 1 LMP2. Starworks owns 3 DP chassis and a prototype challenge chassis as far as I know, but that doesn't mean they haven't bought a LMP2 chassis. Last I heard, Starworks was racing 2 DP chassis and a pc chassis next season

 

[Sam48]

8STAR owned Starworks LMP2 chassis then rented it out to ESM. 8star is the only team I know of for sure that's going with 1 DP and 1 LMP2. Starworks owns 3 DP chassis and a prototype challenge chassis as far as I know, but that doesn't mean they haven't bought a LMP2 chassis. Last I heard, Starworks was racing 2 DP chassis and a pc chassis next season

I was simply using them as an example because we know they aren't the only team considering a dual LMP2/DP effort (At least 8Star). Couple this with the fact that we know more LMP2 cars were sold to undisclosed teams as of right now.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

And you guys only prove me right as the argument further goes. Also does anyone know if PC teams are going to just go up to P2, I know it's not known but hypothetically speaking. Since the PC cars aren't that far off from P2.

 

[hawkeye122]

LMP2s are a spec class too mate... And although I prefer them to DPs, a top class with only 4 cars just isn't a good idea.

Errrr, since when are LMP2's a spec car?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Errrr, since when are LMP2's a spec car?

That's right they aren't, I also said the P2 were spec but I confused them with the actual spec PC cars, which are all the same chassis and engine. PC is much closer to DP, P2 is actual prototypes.

 

[Snaeper]

And you guys only prove me right as the argument further goes. Also does anyone know if PC teams are going to just go up to P2, I know it's not known but hypothetically speaking. Since the PC cars aren't that far off from P2.

I don't think many would bump up. The biggest reason the PC class is getting so much interest is the Pro-Am lineup and the controlled cost. Not to mention the close competition from the spec cars. People who like those factors are not going to be happy to go up and race against Pro drivers with developed cars and varying budgets.

Errrr, since when are LMP2's a spec car?

It isn't, but if you look at ALMS current field, it basically is. Everyone is using the HPD ARX, and that may have been the point he was thinking of.

Ultimately, both P2 and DP need to be replaced. DP's due to their low-tech approach, and P2's due to their aging chassis designs as a result of the cost-capping restrictions for manufacturer's budgets.

 

[Mac K]

Is an LMP2 really a prototype though? Sure, it technically is, but is it really? It introduces no new technology, it's cost capped, and is created with a Pro-Am environment in mind.

 

[phil bell]

Ultimately, both P2 and DP need to be replaced. DP's due to their low-tech approach, and P2's due to their aging chassis designs as a result of the cost-capping restrictions for manufacturer's budgets.

I thought the cost capping referred to the car purchase price and not development costs though?

Unless youre saying the cost cap affects how much profit they make and consequently how much goes into development.

Not sure if either are true though.

Also with respect to P2 being a Spec class, I think the 14' rules with shake things up. New coupe chassis, engines, etc.

Unless everybody buys the Adess of course...

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Is an LMP2 really a prototype though? Sure, it technically is, but is it really? It introduces no new technology, it's cost capped, and is created with a Pro-Am environment in mind.

I wouldn't say it brought or brings nothing, it will probably never bring the technology P1 brings. But GTE-Pro is suppose to be it's own peak and it doesn't bring much to sport cars on the road. However, there is actual variety to the racing and what goes into a P2 unlike a DP.

 

[RACECAR]

Is an LMP2 really a prototype though? Sure, it technically is, but is it really? It introduces no new technology, it's cost capped, and is created with a Pro-Am environment in mind.

So basically in purpose, its exactly what the DPs are.

 

[cnd01]

So basically in purpose, its exactly what the DPs are.

Exactly. LMP2 is the ACO's version of the DP

 

[Jav]

Except for the fact that the engine on a P2 car is required to use a production block, which makes it 1,000 times more relevant than a generic tube frame monster...

 

[cnd01]

Except for the fact that the engine on a P2 car is required to use a production block, which makes it 1,000 times more relevant than a generic tube frame monster...

Take that production block and add the rest of the production engine parts, put it in a Honda civic which has the production chassis, drivetrain, etc. , and you have a continental tire sports car challenge Honda civic which is 1,000 times more relevant to what you and I see on the road every day than a chassis that was baked in a fancy oven

Point being: arguing which protoype is more relevant is counterproductive because by definition protoype isn't supposed to be like anything we drive

 

[Mac K]

I wouldn't say it brought or brings nothing, it will probably never bring the technology P1 brings. But GTE-Pro is suppose to be it's own peak and it doesn't bring much to sport cars on the road. However, there is actual variety to the racing and what goes into a P2 unlike a DP.

So it really isn't a "prototype" then.

So basically in purpose, its exactly what the DPs are.

It seems that way.

Except for the fact that the engine on a P2 car is required to use a production block, which makes it 1,000 times more relevant than a generic tube frame monster...

So outside of that, it really isn't a true prototype. The only true prototype in my opinion is the WEC P1 cars.

 

[cnd01]

So it really isn't a "prototype" then.

It seems that way.

So outside of that, it really isn't a true prototype. The only true prototype in my opinion is the WEC P1 cars.

I totally agree and add the delta wing and the zeod or whatever it's called that Nissan is racing garage 56 this year

 

[phil bell]

I think LMP2 are more relevant to sports car racing in general. It's accepted worldwide in ELMS and the WEC and is a class that is homologated for Lemans, giving teams the chance to compete there with this formula which has already been proven successful overseas.

In addition, it brings the potential for more variety as well with different constructors hopefully soon to arrive.

If Im not wrong a P2 car is faster around most tracks as well but I could be wrong there.

Neither DPs or P2s can be considered prototypes by definition but Im in support of P2.

 

[Mac K]

I think LMP2 are more relevant to sports car racing in general. It's accepted worldwide in ELMS and the WEC and is a class that is homologated for Lemans, giving teams the chance to compete there with this formula which has already been proven successful overseas.

I agree, I just hope the USCC doesn't alienate LMP2..

 

[MrWednesday]

In addition, [P2] brings the potential for more variety as well with different constructors hopefully soon to arrive.

That's a questionable assertion; at present, there are two constructors in ALMS P2 vs. four chassis and three engines in DP (with an asterisk on the chassis count as Lola is only listed as participating in the COTA round in the Wikipedia article).

 

[phil bell]

That's a questionable assertion; at present, there are two constructors in ALMS P2 vs. four chassis and three engines in DP (with an asterisk on the chassis count as Lola is only listed as participating in the COTA round in the Wikipedia article).

Thats why I said POTENTIAL and HOPEFULLY.

 

[Jav]

So outside of that, it really isn't a true prototype. The only true prototype in my opinion is the WEC P1 cars.

If it's not a production car it is a prototype, it is that simple. No matter what type of chasis, no matter what type of racing, if the car didn't start its lite as a production car it is a prototype and yes that includes Formula cars... Only thing we don't call them prototypes...

 

[cnd01]

That's a questionable assertion; at present, there are two constructors in ALMS P2 vs. four chassis and three engines in DP (with an asterisk on the chassis count as Lola is only listed as participating in the COTA round in the Wikipedia article).

Technically 5 chassis because the number 77 Doran racing entry chassis was built in 2004 when it was called the Doran chassis, but in either 07 or 08, Doran sold his constructors license to dallara which is what the 10 car is. Sorry I'm a grand am nerd

 

[Mac K]

If it's not a production car it is a prototype, it is that simple. No matter what type of chasis, no matter what type of racing, if the car didn't start its lite as a production car it is a prototype and yes that includes Formula cars... Only thing we don't call them prototypes...

So by that logic this is a prototype...

and this..

and this..

Come on Jav

 

[cnd01]

so by that logic this is a prototype...

And this..

And this..

Come on jav

+1

 

[Müle]

Except for the fact that the engine on a P2 car is required to use a production block, which makes it 1,000 times more relevant than a generic tube frame monster...

Once again, relevant to what exactly?

Nobody answered me the first time.

 

[cnd01]

Take that production block and add the rest of the production engine parts, put it in a Honda civic which has the production chassis, drivetrain, etc. , and you have a continental tire sports car challenge Honda civic which is 1,000 times more relevant to what you and I see on the road every day than a chassis that was baked in a fancy oven

Point being: arguing which protoype is more relevant is counterproductive because by definition protoype isn't supposed to be like anything we drive

Once again, relevant to what exactly?

Nobody answered me the first time.

There's the answer lol

 

[Jav]

So by that logic this is a prototype...

and this..

and this..

Come on Jav

Yup! That's right 👍
Seriously, some people actually call the Z4 GT-3 a prototype just because it uses a non-production V8...

Once again, relevant to what exactly?

Nobody answered me the first time.

By having a production block the manufacturer has a chance to directly apply what they learned on the track to the next gen of that road going engine.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Wow this is getting out of hand this will take me a while to quote out...

Not sure how those are prototypes...I guess V8 Supercars hell many touring cars are prototypes as well.

Take that production block and add the rest of the production engine parts, put it in a Honda civic which has the production chassis, drivetrain, etc. , and you have a continental tire sports car challenge Honda civic which is 1,000 times more relevant to what you and I see on the road every day than a chassis that was baked in a fancy oven

Point being: arguing which protoype is more relevant is counterproductive because by definition protoype isn't supposed to be like anything we drive

Go read the homologation for P2 and you'll realize that there is variety that can actually be put back to real world. DP technology is as relevant to today's road cars as running historic GTP or Can-AM cars. You are losing the meaning of what he says by quickly jumping. The point is not to run a production GTE-Am car or a glorified one as you want to put it.

The point in reality is that you can be much more economical and still run a prototype car for much less then it takes to run a P1 which cost as much as an F1 team just more variety. It is about also finding new ways to be quick and run production material and prices that don't reach into the figures you see with P1. There was a time that P2 had large numbers but then ALMS broke it down due to the teams who were racing and winning in it. P2 is interesting, but the U.S. seems to have difficulty trying to manage it. When Diesel, Gas N/A, or Turbo/Supercharger runs in a DP with the advanced aero packages then tell me but the lack of that ability brings into question for me.

 

[Snaeper]

I thought the cost capping referred to the car purchase price and not development costs though?

Unless youre saying the cost cap affects how much profit they make and consequently how much goes into development.

Not sure if either are true though.

Also with respect to P2 being a Spec class, I think the 14' rules with shake things up. New coupe chassis, engines, etc.

Unless everybody buys the Adess of course...

It effects the profits, of course. You have to spend money investing in the car, then constructing the car, and hope you can squeeze out enough profit to get by, all while competing against other manufacturers who are using old chassis, selling them for less because they covered their development costs back when the prices were fair game.

I cannot find the article about Dallara wanting to get into constructing a chassis and mentioning this, but they said the biggest hurdle was not getting their money back very quickly due to the capped costs of the cars.

It's partially why we haven't seen the ADESS outside of rendered form yet.

 

[Wardez]

They aren't just called "Prototypes" outside of context. That's why, outside of context, they're referred to as "Le Mans Prototypes."

Prototype is a really really broad term, Jav's right on this one.

In the purest sense, for motorsport, F1 cars are fit into the term prototype more than any other type of race car. Every single race is almost a new prototype for the top teams.

I apologize for the light derailment. Interesting conversation is all

 

[Hun200kmh]

I think you guys confuse the word prototype as defined in common language to the word prototype as used in MOTORSPORTS.

If you go about prototypes in MOTORSPORTS then you are talking "Sports Cars" racing by definition. And if you want a common way of referring to prototypes (whatever the series) then you'll be discussing SPORTS PROTOTYPES (that's how I heard them being called when I was a kid).

Oh and open wheel single seaters are called FORMULAS. Doesn't matter why or even if it makes sense. Accept it and deal with it.


On a different note. Atherton's text about the end of ALMS is very interesting. Due credit to Don Panoz, and very interesting litle stories about the "highest high" moment he had, and also the memory of an epic ALMS moment, courtesy of Allan McNish.

Here: http://www.alms.com/articles/final-chapter-american-le-mans-series