Besides the eSports, What's the Point?

[dr_slump]

nm

EDIT: Sorry, confused the topic.

 

[7HO]

We are discussing the meaning of the words in the original post. You can believe them to mean whatever you want and I can disagree with them.

What you or I believe they mean is irrelevant. The meaning is defined by the dictionary and that is the basis of which people can understand each other. The problem is you do not want to accept the meaning of those words and your argument is based on your own definitions.

All of the guff you wrote after that is meaningless.

Guff meaning foolish talk or ideas. Since they were neither again you are talking rubbish. They are not my ideas and it isn't foolish to consult a dictionary to understand the meaning of words. It is however foolish to imagine words mean something that is not in the dictionary.

The comment was made to denigrate those who enjoy single player and so defend the none inclusion of a decent single player mode in the game.

According to your imaginations not based on the dictionary meanings of the words used.

Its not virtual?

The competition between people is the only 'real' element to it, the cars are virtual, the curcuits are virtual, the physics and force feedback are virtual, the environment is virtual.

But its not virtual?

Seriously, you're in a position of authority here and you can't understand this? All those virtual elements you just mentioned have no bearing on if you are really racing by the definition. Only the elements you accept as real are factors in whether it is a real race. The race is real. Hopefully repition will help.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/racer A person who competes in races
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/race Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective.

A virtual environment or car does not disqualify the act of racing as the type of race and environment is not defined or relative. The only thing that matters is that to be a racer you must be competing against others to see who is fastest.

So risk of injury or death is a factor that differentiates them. Can you tell me the ratio of real world racing to sim racing injuries and deaths?

You don't like that analogy however, so lets try some others. Does on-line FIFA and PES make you a footballer? What about on-line cricket, baseball, basketball?

hopefully by now you should already understand the error of your argument. But

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/soldier A person who serves in an army.
Playing CoD does not meet the requirements of the definition.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/footballer
A person who plays soccer; a soccer player.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/soccer
A form of football played by two teams of eleven players with a round ball which may not be handled during play except by the goalkeepers.
Also called football and Association football
Again playing PES you do not meet the requirements, you not actually playing football you are playing virtual football.

The same can be said about the rest.

Online Racing is real racing using virtual cars in a virtual environment because it meets the definition of racing. You are not actually driving a car but driving a car is not a requirement of racing. In the same way that you are not really driving a car, when you play PES you are not really playing soccer. but if you were playing against a real person you may be involved in a real competition because like racing, competition is not dependant on the use of a real ball in the real world.

Now if you asked me about online poker championships I would say you are really playing poker.

You are competing against another person yes, however the crux is if that is more or less racing that against AI.

I can tell you hands down that I've had situations in which racing against AI has been more challenging than racing against people, I've also had the reverse situations.

They are both a form of competition, they are both a race, they are both a form of racing.

You have the oxford definitions above, it is your choice if you choose to accept them or make up your own definitions. but if we make up our own definitions people end up in silly fights because understanding people would become impossible.

 

[PzR Slim]

What you or I believe they mean is irrelevant. The meaning is defined by the dictionary and that is the basis of which people can understand each other. The problem is you do not want to accept the meaning of those words and your argument is based on your own definitions.


Guff meaning foolish talk or ideas. Since they were neither again you are talking rubbish. They are not my ideas and it isn't foolish to consult a dictionary to understand the meaning of words. It is however foolish to imagine words mean something that is not in the dictionary.


According to your imaginations not based on the dictionary meanings of the words used.


Seriously, you're in a position of authority here and you can't understand this? All those virtual elements you just mentioned have no bearing on if you are really racing by the definition. Only the elements you accept as real are factors in whether it is a real race. The race is real. Hopefully repition will help.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/racer A person who competes in races
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/race Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective.

A virtual environment or car does not disqualify the act of racing as the type of race and environment is not defined or relative. The only thing that matters is that to be a racer you must be competing against others to see who is fastest.



hopefully by now you should already understand the error of your argument. But

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/soldier A person who serves in an army.
Playing CoD does not meet the requirements of the definition.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/footballer
A person who plays soccer; a soccer player.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/soccer
A form of football played by two teams of eleven players with a round ball which may not be handled during play except by the goalkeepers.
Also called football and Association football
Again playing PES you do not meet the requirements, you not actually playing football you are playing virtual football.

The same can be said about the rest.

Online Racing is real racing using virtual cars in a virtual environment because it meets the definition of racing. You are not actually driving a car but driving a car is not a requirement of racing. In the same way that you are not really driving a car when you play PES you are not really playing soccer. but if you were playing against a real person you may be involved in a real competition because like racing, competition is not dependant on the use of a real ball in the real world.

Now if you asked me about online poker championships I would say you are really playing poker.


You have the oxford definitions above, it is your choice if you choose to accept them or make up your own definitions. but if we make up our own definitions people end up in silly fights because understanding people would become impossible.

It's pretty surprising that you would waste so much of your time writing that diatribe over a throw away comment which is defending a pretend car racing game

 

[Scaff]

What you or I believe they mean is irrelevant. The meaning is defined by the dictionary and that is the basis of which people can understand each other. The problem is you do not want to accept the meaning of those words and your argument is based on your own definitions.


Guff meaning foolish talk or ideas. Since they were neither again you are talking rubbish. They are not my ideas and it isn't foolish to consult a dictionary to understand the meaning of words. It is however foolish to imagine words mean something that is not in the dictionary.


According to your imaginations not based on the dictionary meanings of the words used.


Seriously, you're in a position of authority here and you can't understand this? All those virtual elements you just mentioned have no bearing on if you are really racing by the definition. Only the elements you accept as real are factors in whether it is a real race. The race is real. Hopefully repition will help.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/racer A person who competes in races
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/race Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective.

A virtual environment or car does not disqualify the act of racing as the type of race and environment is not defined or relative. The only thing that matters is that to be a racer you must be competing against others to see who is fastest.



hopefully by now you should already understand the error of your argument. But

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/soldier A person who serves in an army.
Playing CoD does not meet the requirements of the definition.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/footballer
A person who plays soccer; a soccer player.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/soccer
A form of football played by two teams of eleven players with a round ball which may not be handled during play except by the goalkeepers.
Also called football and Association football
Again playing PES you do not meet the requirements, you not actually playing football you are playing virtual football.

The same can be said about the rest.

Online Racing is real racing using virtual cars in a virtual environment because it meets the definition of racing. You are not actually driving a car but driving a car is not a requirement of racing. In the same way that you are not really driving a car, when you play PES you are not really playing soccer. but if you were playing against a real person you may be involved in a real competition because like racing, competition is not dependant on the use of a real ball in the real world.

Now if you asked me about online poker championships I would say you are really playing poker.


You have the oxford definitions above, it is your choice if you choose to accept them or make up your own definitions. but if we make up our own definitions people end up in silly fights because understanding people would become impossible.

So a virtual car, track, environment and physics engine are all acceptable to you, but a virtual opponent isn't?

Despite none of those definitions precluding one.

I know of one (very dangerous) race each year in which people race not against each other, but against a wheel of cheese! Are they not racing!

And if they are why not a virtual opponent if cheese is a valid one?

Oh and my position as a member of staff has no bearing on who I agree with or not, its about ensuring that the AUP is followed, as such please don't attempt a plead to authority.

 

[freedom1104]

so now somebody has claimed that holding a dualshock4 and racing in virtual environment ,with virtual car, virtual physics and virtual tracks is a comparable Real Racer to max verstappen inside a f1 car at a f1 gp ?ohhh my wordss. how twisted is this world.

and how somebody claim pd will fix every problems on gts whereas sms wont fix a bloodything on pcars2. so hilarous does he know how many files last pcars2 patch update replace ? it needed 48gb of hdd free space just to unpack and repack the files. how is it sms wont fix anything?

 

[Skiddy]

There is no reason they could not do a GT6 style single player and the Sport Mode, with Sony's resources and 4 year dev cycle. Apart from laziness and saving $ to give less for more.

I think the reason is that they did not want to split the player base. They are obviously betting on the eSport aspect of the game. If they give us massive single player to mess with, who would be left to play the online part? This way you're kind of stuck with online, so you might aswell give it a go.

 

[Johnnypenso]

so now somebody has claimed that holding a dualshock4 and racing in virtual environment ,with virtual car, virtual physics and virtual tracks is a comparable Real Racer to max verstappen inside a f1 car at a f1 gp ?ohhh my wordss. how twisted is this world.

Watching people defend their beloved game like this is like watching a virtual game of Twister, which, to some, is as good as a real game of Twister.

 

[freedom1104]

Watching people defend their beloved game like this is like watching a virtual game of Twister, which, to some, is as good as a real game of Twister.

oh yea. im just gonna grab that real soldier vr simulator so i can be comparable as a real soldier in battlefield

 

[Johnnypenso]

I think the reason is that they did not want to split the player base. They are obviously betting on the eSport aspect of the game. If they give us massive single player to mess with, who would be left to play the online part? This way you're kind of stuck with online, so you might aswell give it a go.

So what you're suggesting is that all the players would really prefer to play offline so GTSport leaves out the offline campaign to force us into doing something we'd never or would rarely do by choice? That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the attractiveness of Sport Mode.

 

[Scaff]

I think the reason is that they did not want to split the player base. They are obviously betting on the eSport aspect of the game. If they give us massive single player to mess with, who would be left to play the online part? This way you're kind of stuck with online, so you might aswell give it a go.

Or not buy the title in the first place.

The single most popular esports sim racing title for the last two years (across all platforms) has a massive single player element to it.

I personally don't buy that as a logical argument at all.

 

[freedom1104]

i would say there are no conflict of interest in between sport mode and normal single player campaign. sport mode is just a revamped online mode with race calendar of coming events with rules and penalty and Sr. single player campaign and sport mode should be able to live with each other very well.

 

[JacksHerer]

Besides the eSports, What's the Point?

The point is to have a driving game that can't be hijacked by little kids bouncing off walls or other cars. That's what I found in all prior racing games.

I would still be playing GT Sport now, but i'm aching from my death grip driving style.
I spent the morning trying to tune 2 seconds off my nurb GP lap times so I could win a sport mode race. I still can't qualify higher than 4th at the moment, but I've been having the best races I've ever had on a game. Fairly holding on to that hard earned qualifying position keeps getting harder. Making gains from others mistakes is soooo rewarding.
I'm looking forward to trying to find another 8 tenths tomorrow. No other driving game has given me motivation to improve as someone else always ruins the race.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Watching people defend their beloved game like this is like watching a virtual game of Twister, which, to some, is as good as a real game of Twister.

That is what makes me laugh so much.

As much as I got popped for this before, I have to say it: this is textbook fanboyism. The arguments have gotten ludicrous, and it's obvious that some people here are willing to throw up nonsensical arguments so that GT is on just a bit more level of a playing field when it comes to arguing about it on a internet forum.

 

[7HO]

It's pretty sad and pathetic that you would waste so much of your time writing that diatribe over a throw away comment which is defending a pretend car racing game

I think the way you have commented in this discussion repeatedly and finishing this way is sad and pathetic.

Despite none of those definitions precluding one.

Seriously, do you just invent the meaning of every word?
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/another Used to refer to an additional person or thing of the same type as one already mentioned or known about; one more; a further.

So yes the definition precludes racing against a AI.

Oh and my position as a member of staff has no bearing on who I agree with or not, its about ensuring that the AUP is followed, as such please don;t attempt a plead to authority.

Plead what? You pointed out I couldn't write what i did. I apologised and edited my post. I realised the flat Earth comment could be seen as a breach and was not thinking when I wrote it because I was just trying to draw attention to the fact he refused to accept the reality of what the dictionary defines those words as meaning. You did your job and I understand that and that is why I apologised and corrected my mistake.

so now somebody has claimed that holding a dualshock4 and racing in virtual environment ,with virtual car, virtual physics and virtual tracks is a comparable Real Racer to max verstappen inside a f1 car at a f1 gp ?ohhh my wordss. how twisted is this world.

So twisted that people like you make up stuff that wasn't said. Yes you can really race with a DS4, no one said it is comparable to the experience of racing a real F1 car, the only thing that is comparable is racing online, in little athletics or in a real F1 car are all racing. If you play pong you are playing a video game, it might not be comparable to PUBG or Warframe but they are both video games. You might build a small bridge in your yard, it might not be comparable to the Golden gate but they are both bridges.

and how somebody claim pd will fix every problems on gts whereas sms wont fix a bloodything on pcars2. so hilarous does he know how many files last pcars2 patch update replace ? it needed 48gb of hdd free space just to unpack and repack the files. how is it sms wont fix anything?

First off rubbish. I have PC2, the 2.0 patch was not that big. Second of all, I said it was crazy to think SMS will fix things that SMS have said they don't think are bugs or wrong. They will fix things, they will only fix the things they have acknowledged as being a bug or wrong but there are many complaints that have been made where they have argued the people making those claims are wrong.

oh yea. im just gonna grab that real soldier vr simulator so i can be comparable as a real soldier in battlefield

Perhaps you should read the replies before you comment as this has been addressed.

The single most popular esports sim racing title for the last two years (across all platforms) has a massive single player element to it.

Have you got numbers? Link please.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

*sees literal pages of someone laughably trying to defend the "real racers" bit*

Ah, the No True Scotsman approach to arguing. Checks out.

 

[7HO]

*sees literal pages of someone laughably trying to defend the "real racers" bit*

Ah, the No True Scotsman approach to arguing. Checks out.

Clearly you have not read the page you linked.

 

[Deadheadbill]

It's pretty sad and pathetic that you would waste so much of your time writing that diatribe over a throw away comment which is defending a pretend car racing game

So is it ok to call someone sad and pathetic on this forum or not? I'm confused?

 

[PzR Slim]

So is it ok to call someone sad and pathetic on this forum or not? I'm confused?

Report the post and and a moderator will decide if I have overstepped the mark.

However, so as not to offend your sensibilities I have edited my post.

 

[Deadheadbill]

Report the post and and a moderator will decide if I have overstepped the mark.

Nah, I don't play that way. Mama taught me not to be a snitch.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Clearly you have not read the page you linked.

Maybe he has.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Clearly you have not read the page you linked.

On the contrary, I'm quite familiar with it, because people have used this infallacy repeatedly to argue their point. You're just the latest to do it.

Nobody speaks on behalf of all "real racers", regardless of whatever convenient description they want to attach to the term. It's just as ridiculous as someone stating "all GT fans like X" or "all Chevy drivers enjoy Y".

 

[Scaff]

Seriously, do you just invent the meaning of every word?

Cut the attitude.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/another Used to refer to an additional person or thing of the same type as one already mentioned or known about; one more; a further.

So yes the definition precludes racing against a AI.

So the cheese runs not a race then, got it.

The world we live in is a rapidly changing one and as such the very definition of words and meaning change and evolve.

Plead what? You pointed out I couldn't write what i did. I apologised and edited my post. I realised the flat Earth comment could be seen as a breach and was not thinking when I wrote it because I was just trying to draw attention to the fact he refused to accept the reality of what the dictionary defines those words as meaning. You did your job and I understand that and that is why I apologised and corrected my mistake.

You questions why I would not support you based on me being a member of staff.

"Seriously, you're in a position of authority here and you can't understand this?"

So my position has nothing to do with me disagreeing with you.

Have you got numbers? Link please.

If you disagree I suggest you take issue with ESL.

https://www.eslgaming.com/article/announcing-project-cars-sms-r-championship-series-esl-3527

Project Cars has been the largest eSport racing platform for the last two years in terms of number of events run, total prize money and competitors.

Th

Nah, I don't play that way. Mama taught me not to be a snitch.

Then don't complain publicly.

Either use the report button or don't, but don't bang on about not being a snitch while doing the equivalent of standing on a roof shouting look what they did!

 

[Deadheadbill]

Cut the attitude.


Then don't complain publicly.

Either use the report button or don't, but don't bang on about not being a snitch while doing the equivalent of standing on a roof shouting look what they did!

Did I break a rule by doing that? Serious question because it seems like this is the only thread where I get into trouble.

 

[7HO]

Maybe he has.

Well if he has and he can understand English then he would see how that page doesn't describe my actions but does describe the actions of those who are arguing against me. I'm pretty sure it was directed at me though.

On the contrary, I'm quite familiar with it, because people have used this infallacy repeatedly to argue their point. You're just the latest to do it.

Nobody speaks on behalf of all "real racers", regardless of whatever convenient description they want to attach to the term. It's just as ridiculous as someone stating "all GT fans like X" or "all Chevy drivers enjoy Y".

Now you are guilty of it also.

No true Scotsman is a kind of informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hocfashion to exclude the counterexample.[1][2] Rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing"; i.e., those who perform that action are not part of our group and thus criticism of that action is not criticism of the group).[3]

You're too hung up on the similarity of a word to actually read that definition and understand those arguing against me are all guilty according to that definition. And just now you did the same thing the other guy did, you made a claim the original post did not make. He did not claim to speak on behalf of all true racers, you simply imagine he did but without him confirming it you have no evidence to back your claim and instead what you should be doing is reading the words he actually wrote.

I have backed everything I have said with evidence and all of you are ignoring the evidence and using the No True Scot approach on me, how about you read that definition above.

Do you deny the definitions provided by the Oxford dictionary and deny the possibility the words can mean what I have said? keep in mind I'm sticking to facts, I'm providing evidence from the English dictionary. It is everyone else who is choosing to change the definition and ignore the dictionary meaning and no one has backed their claim with any type of factual evidence. Instead they have resorted to ridiculous arguments.

So either you have not really read it or you actually don't understand it and are simply fixated on the similarity between "real" and "true".

 

[Scaff]

Did I break a rule by doing that? Serious question because it seems like this is the only thread where I get into trouble.

Yes.

If you want to raise another members posting habits as a potential AUP violation you do it via the report tool, as you have already been informed in a conversation with me.

You say you can't because that would be snitching (and honestly this isn't school), yet you are happy to 'snitch' in about the most public way possible on a forum.

So as I have said, use the report button.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

words

Again, here's the original quote:

"It does online multiplayer racing well. And that’s all real racers care about"

Structurally, that's no different from someone saying "This car does X well, and that's all Chevy fans care about". It suggests anybody that does not agree with the first clause is not a "real racer"/Chevy fan.

If my post falls foul of the NTS fallacy, feel free to point it out.

 

[Joey D]

Besides the eSports, What's the Point?

The point is to have a driving game that can't be hijacked by little kids bouncing off walls or other cars. That's what I found in all prior racing games.

Except, there are still numerous bad drivers bouncing off other cars and walls in the game. GTS has the same issues all racing games have online and a rating system isn't going to really change that.

 

[Deadheadbill]

Yes.

If you want to raise another members posting habits as a potential AUP violation you do it via the report tool, as you have already been informed in a conversation with me.

You say you can't because that would be snitching (and honestly this isn't school), yet you are happy to 'snitch' in about the most public way possible on a forum.

So as I have said, use the report button.

I had no intention of reporting anyone. My original post was just a little friendly jab at PZR Slim. He elevated it to "report me" status. All good.

Except, there are still numerous bad drivers bouncing off other cars and walls in the game. GTS has the same issues all racing games have online and a rating system isn't going to really change that.

Not sure what your SR rating is but at S level it seems to be as clean of racing as you are going to get in a online racing game with no physical consequences of bad action.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Except, there are still numerous bad drivers bouncing off other cars and walls in the game. GTS has the same issues all racing games have online and a rating system isn't going to really change that.

I'll admit, on average, the number of bad drivers in my GT Sport races has been lower than my FM7 and PCARS2 ones. So, that's good!

But yeah, that's about all GT Sport is offering me right now: clean, semi-close online races. Which can be good fun — especially when people actually interact pre/post-race. I've already had a few friend requests after close races. So if you're big into competition, Sport certainly helps.

Outside of that though? The livery editor is too limiting in its current form, so I'm holding off until either we can group layers (and save them for other projects), or the import feature is live. Campaign provides zero incentive to return, for me anyway: there's the challenge of beating friends' times, but that's it. I'm not really that driven to buy more cars, either: given the game's focus, buying and testing cars is less satisfying than making sure I have a competitive model for the three races.

Scapes/Photo Mode is admittedly something I've spent a lot of time with in the past, and will be getting properly buried in it soon, for, uh, reasons.

 

[Scaff]

I'll admit, on average, the number of bad drivers in my GT Sport races has been lower than my FM7 and PCARS2 ones. So, that's good!

But yeah, that's about all GT Sport is offering me right now: clean, semi-close online races. Which can be good fun — especially when people actually interact pre/post-race. I've already had a few friend requests after close races. So if you're big into competition, Sport certainly helps.

Outside of that though? The livery editor is too limiting in its current form, so I'm holding off until either we can group layers (and save them for other projects), or the import feature is live. Campaign provides zero incentive to return, for me anyway: there's the challenge of beating friends' times, but that's it. I'm not really that driven to buy more cars, either: given the game's focus, buying and testing cars is less satisfying than making sure I have a competitive model for the three races.

Scapes/Photo Mode is admittedly something I've spent a lot of time with in the past, and will be getting properly buried in it soon, for, uh, reasons.

I'm the other way around.

I've had more problem drivers in GTS than PC2.