FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Saidur_Ali]

Is that a promise. Lol.

Thanks Saidur for your birthday wishes.

You're welcome, have a good one 👍.

 

[omgitsbees]

Is that a promise. Lol.

We can only hope.

 

[zr1chris]

Do you like it? I considered getting a GT2 but decided to get the GT3. Getting it shipped to Japan is a pain and I didn't want my wallet to take that big of a hit

I absolutely love it. If you want to know exactly though from what I have heard the only difference the GT2 and TurboS have from the GT3 is the added xbox360 compatibility and some appearance changes. Functionality they are all the same from what I have heard.

Maybe someone else can chime in to confirm that.

 

[shintastic48]

I absolutely love it. If you want to know exactly though from what I have heard the only difference the GT2 and TurboS have from the GT3 is the added xbox360 compatibility and some appearance changes. Functionality they are all the same from what I have heard.

Maybe someone else can chime in to confirm that.

If that is true, then that's a pretty hefty 70 extra dollars for the GT2

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I absolutely love it. If you want to know exactly though from what I have heard the only difference the GT2 and TurboS have from the GT3 is the added xbox360 compatibility and some appearance changes. Functionality they are all the same from what I have heard.

Maybe someone else can chime in to confirm that.

I believe that is true even though I don't even own a Fanatec wheel. There are extra motors in the Xbox compatibles ones due to XID.

 

[zr1chris]

If that is true, then that's a pretty hefty 70 extra dollars for the GT2

Yeah but it's the only wheel currently being produced (besides the new CSR and CSRE) that is compatible with both the Xbox360 and PS3. Your not going to get a good xbox wheel for $70 so it's actually a really good deal if you plan on using a wheel on both consoles.

 

[Kryz11]

I play the FM4 demo. Physics are pretty decent but I play with pad, GT5 I play with Wheel.
Seems like GT5 does some things right, FM4 does some things right.
The graphics, its so weird to look at, FM4 photomode looks so good, but gameplay so hard to look at, seems like I cant tell from distance what is next corner going to be in GT5 its so clear to see. FM4 graphics are not that impressive to me but still looks nice, I think its using too much those fake BLOOM effects... In real life I never witnessed BLOOM in my entire life!

Can someone take some photoes (gameplay of Subaru and Ferrari compare it to GT5s? Both cockpit and outside view.

 

[zr1chris]

^ your not going to get an accurate comparison from the FM4 demo since GT5 doesn't have an environment like the Alps. The contrast and lighting wont be an even match. Wait for the full version to come out unless someone can get some shots from the green disk owners.

 

[ChadSpeed]

On launch with high power cars you get torque steer.

Try the Fanatec settings from Raudi.
Take off from launch without holding the wheel. Bang initially it turns right then the Torque alignment straightens out the wheel. I was surprised. Very good.

One other thing is that Forzas clutch is analogue. GT is digital. When doing the license tests I found that max throttle gave the best launch. A bit disappointed in that.

F1 2011 and other games use max throttle for best launch. Wish developers would look into this side of the game.
Add a bit of skill to the starts.

I think FM3 and now FM4 does take skill to launch a car, I was often the fastest off the line in same make cars in FM3. Its not really hard to launch properly, but once you figure out the rpm to launch at and when you can apply wot with little or no wheelspin, your set. Its different for every car and tune, but just takes a bit of experience.

The thing I have always and still hate about GTs throttle is the non linearity of it. Using stick, trigger or pedals doesn't seem to matter. You apply 50% throttle on the pedal and you get 80% in the on screen indicator. Your at 100% in the on screen indicator when you only have applied 80% pedal. Then all of the sudden your bouncing off the rev limiter without applying full throttle. Also the last 25% of stick, trigger, pedal movement seems to have about 40% of the throttle on game. Just makes it feel unrealistic to launch to me, FM gets it right imo.👍

 

[Kryz11]

Eiger Nordwand could be closest but also GT5 has winter maps. And I know snow does not look like a flash light shining in your eyes on those maps.

 

[Zer0]

You wanted it to feel like your idea of a simulator... these are games we are talking about, all have many flaws as simulators..

Again, you've stated in black and white you prefer GT5 and go to that as its a better simulator (for you), yet as much as it does some things better then FM4, it also does many things wrong. (Or missing)....

All I'm saying is its just personal reference, you insist that its all absolute..

Anyhoo.. I'm OK that your opinion is you don't like it.. We all like different things, but arguing its anything other then preference will just run and run..

I guess he simply want realistic as advertised.

FM3 was artificially tuned down for accessibility, not because flaws or glitches, just part of the intended core driving. Confirmed months back by T10 and used as an excuse to promote the new FM4 sim handling.

In Forza 3, we refined a steering assist to the controller (and to a lesser extent for the wheel) that helped the player countersteer, drift and recover. It slightly modified the player’s steering angle input as well as the rate of steering wheel rotation based on the yaw of the car and the player’s recent inputs. I loved the system for drifting, as it made me feel like a driving god without actually sacrificing our physics accuracy. It made the game easier to drift and recover by just interpreting the player’s input. link

At the time many fans were not accepting this and denied the issue with many excuses and bizarre theories. Now they are proved wrong, I remember you were one of them. link

Also 'Car & Driver' pointed some of the consequences of the FM3 assisted handling in their review.

Now FM4 is having some of the issues that T10 were advertising as gone and others that all people no longer expected(call it assisted steering or hidden aids to ease the driving) and again there are people ignoring the facts and trying to find excuses.

Grip aside the cars without aids feel core assisted in many ways. Even more unforgiving than FM3 are still too easy to recover and keep on track when are driven with no finesse, are easy to keep on large drifts and slides with not much effort, etc.. without a doubt the handling is less demanding than most of the serious sims out there and not what you would expect to be a wild high powered non assisted car reacting and solving critical mistakes.

 

[430_Riviera]

Bright sunlight + snow is extreme glare. That is why skiers wear extremely expensive sunglasses.

I like Forza's launch feel. GT5 you can just mash the throttle and go, the car will hook up like it's got superglue on the tires.

Now FM4 is having some of the issues that T10 were advertising as gone and others that all people no longer expected(call it assisted steering or hidden aids to ease the driving) and again there are people ignoring the facts and trying to find excuses.

Grip aside the cars without aids feel core assisted in many ways. Even more unforgiving than FM3 are still too easy to recover and keep on track when are driven with no finesse, are easy to keep on large drifts and slides with not much effort, etc.. without a doubt the handling is less demanding than most of the serious sims out there and not what you would expect to be a wild high powered non assisted car reacting and solving critical mistakes.

Forza has a more complete driving model than GT5, and always has done. This is my opinion. Regardless of what you might think, or if there is fudging going on in FM4's physics, to me it feels better than GT5, hands down. If GT5 was so damn good, then why has it been updated for spec 2.0? Maybe because they wanted to get it right perhaps? My definition of realistic is obviously far, far different to yours, or maybe the abstract concept of feel that you are basing your opinion on is different for you than me. Making this whole discussion utterly pointless, and the constant hammering home of the point that Forza 'Just doesn't feel right' by GT players a totally wasted exercise. Just think about that for a minute.

I'm still of the opinion that the steering 'aid' is A) A 900 degree wheel issue and B) A symptom of the speed sensitive steering being converted back to 1-1 for opposite lock moments. The physics are sound, nothing is being messed with, and the game isn't driving for you. To say anything otherwise you need PROOF, so far all that has been posted are videos showing issues with 900 degree wheels and speed sensitive steering being swapped for 1-1 during opposite lock useage. Neither of which has anything to do with the basic physics of Forza. Dan openly admits (indeed if you read the info on the steering selection in the assists selection screen in the FM4 demo) that FM3s physics were made more arcade purely for enjoyment purposes with certain elements (weight transfer being one of them) toned down to allow big powerslides and HELL YEAH cornering.

Having played the demo, forza 4 does not have these 'dumbed down' physics, indeed it's really quite brutal if you get into a fishtail or mistime your corrective lock. Every game has a particular feel, every game has nuances you have to get used to to play. Utterly pursuing the real will only leave you disappointed and down. The steering may be a little whack in Forza 4, but the game looks like it's going to be dynamite, and I can't wait to see how the new physics are going to react when cars start getting modified.

 

[shirakawaa]

By the way, GT5 has similar hidden (and untoggable) steering assists when using a DS3 joypad or a 200/360 degrees wheel (although in the case of those wheel it can be toned down a bit in the options screen).

 

[Zer0]

By the way, GT5 has similar hidden (and untoggable) steering assists when using a DS3 joypad or a 200/360 degrees wheel (although in the case of those wheel it can be toned down a bit in the options screen).

And still not as much assisted because driving with a pad in GT5 does have a clearly disadvantage over 900º wheel people.

Does not seem the case with FM4.

 

[shirakawaa]

And still not as much assisted because driving with a pad in GT5 does have a clearly disadvantage over 900º wheel people.

That depends. Countersteer recovery is very easy with a pad thanks to those assists, while it takes much more effort and skill with a 900º wheel. That's the main reason why drifting leaderboards are dominated by pad users in GT5. Of course, wheels win for precisions and feedback. However, hidden assists make playing GT5 with a pad almost a completely different experience than with a wheel, in terms of ease of control.

 

[430_Riviera]

Does not seem the case with FM4.

Flat. Out. Wrong.

I can assure you, that those who are topping the leaderboards in FM4 will have very decent wheels.

I also trucked through most of GT5 fairly easily on a pad. Infact not fairly easily, very easily. Even with no assists.

 

[ocalot2k5]

Flat. Out. Wrong.

I can assure you, that those who are topping the leaderboards in FM4 will have very decent wheels.

I also trucked through most of GT5 fairly easily on a pad. Infact not fairly easily, very easily. Even with no assists.

Your a pro.

 

[BryCivicSi]

I say spec 2.0 is too little too late.

Hey, I loved GT5. I bought it on day one and played every minute I could for 8-9 months. But even the seasonals got boring.
- I use bumper cam so simple interiors in standard cars does me no good. And someone hit the nail on the head using cardboard cutouts to tape to your TV. It is that cheesy.
- 11 New Nascar vehicles. I'd rather have 11 more GT-Rs and Miatas. Seriously.
- New opening movie. Whoo! I disable that the first day.
- Rest of the stuff ain't worth mentioning.

New DLC? Premium muscle cars would be awesome. Or more classic premium Japanese cars. Or a premium Ruf pack. That would totally stop me in my tracks. New tracks would be nice. But DLC? I will have to see how much it costs.

Will this stop me from playing Forza 4? Not in the slightest.

I do like the UI improvement of CPU racers. They are already superior to F3 racers but any little bit helps. But not really worth popping it in to try.

Your a pro.

I ran ABS 1 and rest of the assists off. I didn't have any problems in the game other than the x1 challenges and FGT tournament. And I hate those types of cars so I am happy to skip them. And by any problems at all, I mean, the game is pretty easy even when I picked far slower cars. And I am no where near good. I usually come in the middle of online play and only golded about half of the license tests.

The only difficult races were the 6 seasonal challenges and those have been the best parts of the game.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Flat. Out. Wrong.

I can assure you, that those who are topping the leaderboards in FM4 will have very decent wheels.

I also trucked through most of GT5 fairly easily on a pad. Infact not fairly easily, very easily. Even with no assists.

LOL I'm still using a d-pad and trucking though it easily, online is a bit harder but most don't even think I'm using a d-pad

 

[Zer0]

Flat. Out. Wrong.

I can assure you, that those who are topping the leaderboards in FM4 will have very decent wheels.

I also trucked through most of GT5 fairly easily on a pad. Infact not fairly easily, very easily. Even with no assists.

Time will tell, I'm sure that it will make little difference, to me FM is a game mainly tuned for pad and adapted for wheel.



About GT5 you only need to see the GT Academy leaderboards, some cars with realistic configurations are almost impossible to control with pad or require extreme skills and even with that most of the top wheel times are not possible.

 

[430_Riviera]

Your a pro.

Not really, it's just that GT5 is very easy on a pad. On the FM4 demo, i'm a good 2-3 seconds off the wheel guys with a pad, and pretty darn on it with the wheel. 👍

 

[TT3AZ]

Yes, of course the "feeling" of cars will get more real like when modified, thats no lie. How many cars in gt5 didnt have to be tuned just to get that authentic feeling to it? Ask yourselfs that. Beside, how manny will still race with 100% untuned cars? You need to tweak, thats the whole point.

 

[430_Riviera]

Time will tell, I'm sure that it will make little difference, to me FM is a game mainly tuned for pad and adapted for wheel.

About GT5 you only need to see the GT Academy leaderboards, some cars with realistic configurations are almost impossible to control with pad or require extreme skills and even with that most of the top wheel times are not possible.

Except of course, those realistic settings will have to be backwards and the tire pressures unknown, because GT5s tuning is fubared, eh? I refer you to the Top Gear challenge with the Lotus Elise, the particular model used was known for it's immense understeer, yet in the game it handles like 99% of the weight of the car is suspended roughly 10ft behind the rear axle. It handles like an early 911 with greased tires. That is not particularly realistic is it? Are you yet another 'It's unrealistically difficult to drive, so therefore it's realistic' people?

I'm confused that such cars are nearly impossible to drive and require extreme skill in a game. Because if I thought my father's 500rwhp Corvette C3 was that dangerous I wouldn't let him drive it. Poor bloke would be all over the shop on his sports mediums/comfort softs or whatever the hell Goodyear F1s work out to be.

 

[BryCivicSi]

Yes, of course the "feeling" of cars will get more real like when modified, thats no lie. How many cars in gt5 didnt have to be tuned just to get that authentic feeling to it? Ask yourselfs that. Beside, how manny will still race with 100% untuned cars? You need to tweak, thats the whole point.

How does one find an authentic feeling? I for one haven't driven IRL all 1030+ cars in the game. Maybe like a handful. So, how am I supposed to tune to get an authentic feeling?
I tend to drive 100% stock cars during career mode. Why tune and spend money if I could run stock? I spent my money collecting them all not tuning a few dozen.

 

[430_Riviera]

Yes, of course the "feeling" of cars will get more real like when modified, thats no lie. How many cars in gt5 didnt have to be tuned just to get that authentic feeling to it? Ask yourselfs that. Beside, how manny will still race with 100% untuned cars? You need to tweak, thats the whole point.

Ah yes, because you walk into a garage in real life and browse the tire rack thinking 'Now how real do I want my Mini to feel today? I think I want it to have the same level of lateral grip as a Corvette ZR1 so I'll go for the same compound of tires that has as stock, I'm sure weight and weight distribution, downforce, tire footprint, drivetrain configuration and CoG won't have any effect'

Noice.

 

[shintastic48]

Ah yes, because you walk into a garage in real life and browse the tire rack thinking 'Now how real do I want my Mini to feel today? I think I want it to have the same level of lateral grip as a Corvette ZR1 so I'll go for the same compound of tires that has as stock, I'm sure weight and weight distribution, downforce, tire footprint, drivetrain configuration and CoG won't have any effect'

Noice.

I lol'd.

 

[Zer0]

Except of course, those realistic settings will have to be backwards and the tire pressures unknown, because GT5s tuning is fubared, eh? I refer you to the Top Gear challenge with the Lotus Elise, the particular model used was known for it's immense understeer, yet in the game it handles like 99% of the weight of the car is suspended roughly 10ft behind the rear axle. It handles like an early 911 with greased tires. That is not particularly realistic is it? Are you yet another 'It's unrealistically difficult to drive, so therefore it's realistic' people?

I'm confused that such cars are nearly impossible to drive and require extreme skill in a game. Because if I thought my father's 500rwhp Corvette C3 was that dangerous I wouldn't let him drive it. Poor bloke would be all over the shop on his sports mediums/comfort softs or whatever the hell Goodyear F1s work out to be.

The lotus event used the worst possible tyres in the game(3 grades below the stocks). Buy a new Elise and notice the differences. In real life the car mount very gripy tyres for a reason.

About your dad vette try to drive in a track like you do in the game and take care.

 

[430_Riviera]

The lotus event used the worst possible tyres in the game(3 grades below the stocks). Buy a new Elise and notice the differences. In real life the car mount very gripy tyres for a reason.

About your dad vette try to drive in a track like you do in the game and take care.

Due to an unexpected number of S1s finding ditches and hedges Lotus designed the S2 to be more road user friendly with an under steer bias (e.g. 175 section tyres) which can be addressed in the following cost focussed steps;

http://wiki.seloc.org/a/S2_Understeer

Regardless, all things being the same, the car should just suffer from even more rampant understeer. There are several cars in GT5 where the handling is utterly broken. If the game has a consistent and fluid physics model, then every car should sort of act like it does in real life, in GT5 some do, some don't. For me, in Forza although maybe there have been elements missing from the physics model overall, every car has driven like it's stats and relative design would suggest.

And it's ok, I don't really worry about my Dad driving his Corvette, because I know cars in real life are no where near as (supposedly) difficult to drive as they are in GT5, and that is because GT5 is not realistic, in my opinion.

I think he worries far more about me going around Donington on my modified Street Triple

 

[Vaxxtx]

Ah yes, because you walk into a garage in real life and browse the tire rack thinking 'Now how real do I want my Mini to feel today? I think I want it to have the same level of lateral grip as a Corvette ZR1 so I'll go for the same compound of tires that has as stock, I'm sure weight and weight distribution, downforce, tire footprint, drivetrain configuration and CoG won't have any effect'

Noice.

This is the problem I had with it as well...

 

[Zer0]

Regardless, all things being the same, the car should just suffer from even more rampant understeer. There are several cars in GT5 where the handling is utterly broken. If the game has a consistent and fluid physics model, then every car should sort of act like it does in real life, in GT5 some do, some don't.

And it's ok, I don't really worry about my Dad driving his Corvette, because I know cars in real life are no where near as (supposedly) difficult to drive as they are in GT5, and that is because GT5 is not realistic, in my opinion.

My history in race cars spans back almost seven years. I started in Formula Fords back in 2001, and "single-seaters," as we call them, have dominated my racing experience. I have spent most of my time in Formula Mazdas, which are mid-engine rotary-powered open wheel race cars capable of 150 mph and 2.5 Gs of lateral grip. With roughly the same power-to-weight ratio as a Ferrari F430, they are purpose-built for total speed, and can be a real handful at the limit.


Brian on track in a Formula Mazda in Sonoma, CA
Before I can talk about how GT5: Prologue handles though (don't worry, it handles very well), I'm going to have to give everyone a quick crash course in car balance.

It's important to remember that a car's handling depends on how the weight of the engine shifts between the front and rear of the vehicle. A mid-engine car has a very neutral balance when not accelerating or breaking, a state known as "even throttle." Therefore, when you step on the throttle in a mid-engine car, you force the majority of the car's weight onto the rear tires, generating grip. Conversely, if you lift off the throttle, you force the weight of the car onto the front tires, losing traction in the rear. For this reason, you almost always have to be on-throttle before you even enter a turn (especially in fast corners) for the car to maintain maximum grip and control. In a turn, "lifting-off" will cause the car to spin; simple as that. Add to this the fact that on slick racing tires grip doesn't break very progressively, and you realize how easy it is to do something stupid in a formula race car.

Light, mid-engine cars are the ultimate test for a simulation game then. They change direction quickly, and balancing them properly is a detailed affair. There are several cars that mimic this performance in Gran Turismo 5: Prologue, but none do it better than the '96 Lotus Elise. Its power may seem modest at 120bhp, but weighing in at just 720 kg (1587 lbs), the car is still quick and incredibly nimble; and because it has no bulky weight at the corners to betray its mid-engine design, it's a real freakin' handful.

You see, this is where I am most impressed with Gran Turismo 5: Prologue. No other racing game has this level of physics detail. Playing on "professional" mode (real-world physics) with no electronic aids, if you lift off the throttle mid-turn, the rear of the Elise quickly breaks loose. If you snap back onto the throttle, the rear end squats down on its rubber and the car straightens itself out, just like it would out on a real racetrack. It's amazingly impressive, because most racing games, even previous GT titles, just don't have the same accuracy that GT5: Prologue does. The level of precision you can achieve is surprisingly accurate, meaning you can generate big, controllable slip angles. The limits feel both progressive and exploitable, but take it too far and you will pay the price, just as you would in a real car.

It doesn't stop there, though; GT5 has managed to believably simulate all drive train systems. For example, all-wheel drive cars certainly have their own particular driving style. When you get on the throttle through a turn in an all-wheel drive car, the power is transferred to the outside wheels (which have the most grip) and the car has a tendency to pull itself out towards the edge of the track. As usual, Polyphony Digital is on top of it, and the all-wheel drive cars in GT5 handle accurately, as do the front and rear-wheel drive vehicles. Each car seems to have its own particular personality, just as it should be.

http://www.pakgamers.com/forums/f4/racing-drivers-perspective-gran-turismo-8232/

And was the Prologue.