FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[PzR Slim]

source: http://www.virtualr.net/tim-schrick-tries-forza-motorsport-4
Interesting point of view.

Isn't one of the big failures thrown at FM that it has far too much grip?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Isn't one of the big failures thrown at FM that it has far too much grip?

It is regarding traction grip coming out of corner exits. Forza 4 going by demo seems to have added artificial oversteer to the car characteristics. Similar to when you put say a lot more front end than rear end on an F1 car which makes you end up constantly sliding in corners.

The Ferrari 599 GTO driving here for example, all you do is more or less steer left and right again and again as the car doesn't have enough rear end grip to avoid sliding repetitively (Old video I know):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09mNEOyYcdo&t=3m0s

Also they added something that is in GT5 regarding pad users but also seem to have applied it to wheel users too. The example is in GT5 when you get a rear wheel on grass, when you go to correct it on a pad, it goes full lock to the direction you want and you lose control of the car. In Forza 4 demo if you carrying a lot of speed with a pad and hit a bump awkwardly while staying on throttle on a pad it steers too much and you will probably end up in a barrier. I found the best thing to do is lift off and then countersteer which I think is highly unrealistic, but it corrects the car fine.

It seems T10 went for the artificially harder is more realistic approach this time around compared to FM3 which was making it artificially easier all round with the permanent active steering.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Late to this pary but finally got around to getting an Xbox and Forza (4). Wow and kinda shocked.

For me, if Forza had GT's physics, GFX(thats nit picking really), weather and certain tracks it would be perfect. It trumps GT5 in most other departments imo. A.I., fun, sound and car selection are awesome.👍

If Forza 4 had GT physics, I would dump Forza 4. I prefer the better physics of FM4.

It is regarding traction grip coming out of corner exits. Forza 4 going by demo seems to have added artificial oversteer to the car characteristics. Similar to when you put say a lot more front end than rear end on an F1 car which makes you end up constantly sliding in corners.

Haven't seen that happen at all in Forza 4.

It seems T10 went for the artificially harder is more realistic approach this time around compared to FM3 which was making it artificially easier all round with the permanent active steering.

They actually went with the more realistic has been more difficult approach. Not artificial. Luckily there isn't permanent active steering, but you knew that already.

 

[blauster654]

If Forza 4 had GT physics, I would dump Forza 4. I prefer the better physics of FM4.

Is that in your opinion?

 

[Spagetti69]

Is that in your opinion?

I find that an odd question. Who else's could it be. Dominating wife perhaps?

 

[Bogie 19th]

Is that in your opinion?

How could it be any different? That is what everyone is posting.

 

[Crish360]

There is a lot of comparasions between gt5 and Forza 4 Motorsport.
This is the best comparasion ive seen, check this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2juZOaPfAE

 

[James1436]

[url]http://autos.yahoo.com/news/driving-sim-showdown-real-cars-124541107.html[/URL]

Interesting article.

 

[MHPALA]

Hmmm... Still dont see the point of this thread..👎 (sorry for posting a non related post.) Vehicle dynamics is easy to implement into any title today. Its just simple equations. Just like with any other sim, its the tires and how their compound reacts from frictional forces is the hard part, and I think that both games did a awesome job at doing that. Let's forget about graphics physics, and any other opinion statements; and compare the quality one offers 👍. I'm pretty sure all of these games are calculating roll, lateral, yaw, pitch, longitudinal, cg, vertical load, load distribution, dynamic load forces, and all the other kinematic goody moment forces of a vehicle. I have not seen a sim today that breaks innovative boundaries to be honest. All the same...

 

[Bogie 19th]

If you don't see he point of this thread, then don't post in it.

 

[MHPALA]

If you don't see he point of this thread, then don't post in it.

Fair enough 👍

 

[GTP_Plato]

Vaxtxx, he is clearly a fan of GT5...
No one could say that GT5 most of the times has stunning graphics, without having a great bias opinion, what did you expect ?
Then he goes on, with his bias comment, and says that forza's does nothing trully great... compared to gt5....
Well, in customization, sound and community, it's obvious that gt5 falls short...

This isn't a opinion, when someone says that most of the times GT5 has stunning graphics, well painting a pretty picture, it isn't to turn it into reality...

When the standard content ( vehicles/tracks) it's more than half of the content of the game...
I can't accept sentences like he posted.... they contribute to nothing, maybe satisfying egos ?

I have been a forza fan since the start of FM2. When FM3 came out that was a huge disappointment for me (AWD dominance) I gave up on FM3 after a while as I couldn't stand some of the bugs in the game.

I decided to try GT5 when it came out for PS3 and loved it, it still lacks the one main feature that forza has in leaderboards which was a huge disappointment for me as I like to be competitive. I agree GT5 has it's flaws but PD have corrected a lot of this via updates and adding and improving to the game in general, they are still working and adding to the game a year on which shows PD have a lot of love in there products. A few months time and I wouldn't mind betting the game will be even better.

I did purchase Forza 4 to give it another go and at first I liked the game, but then the usual flaws started to surface. One of the features that trumps GT5 is leaderboards but as usual there are always problems with the poor P.I system (muscle cars dominating the leaderboards even though there topping out at just over 100mph). I paid £450 on the Fanatec CSR setup that is terrible to use on FM4, the 900 deg issue is a terrible flaw to have. Going by previous experiences with turn 10 game updates take a long time to surface and if FM3 is anything to go by, the muscle car bug will not be able to be fixed as they would probably have to re-work the P.I system. A big shame it has these issues as the game was shaping up to be fantastic.

I am now back to playing GT and love the game after the recent updates, I even get a better experience using the wheel I payed a lot of money for, a few months after PD have released more updates I wouldn't be surprised to see people come crawling back to GT as they will realize the flaws Forza has is ruining the game experience.

The reason I quoted you was your comment on car customization, reason being it is down to car customization that the FM series seems to have been flawed. No true forza fan can fail to notice that the car customization and P.I system have never worked together.

 

[Spagetti69]

Bugged cars getting removed from LB.
900 degree issue solved.

How's about that Plato?

 

[GTP_Plato]

Bugged cars getting removed from LB.
900 degree issue solved.

How's about that Plato?

Do you remember how long it took them to remove all times in FM3 and how long before they even started?

Don't get me wrong I would love to enjoy FM4 again but this is turn 10, I think they go by the "there's no rush" saying

 

[Scaff]

Do you remember how long it took them to remove all times in FM3 and how long before they even started?

Don't get me wrong I would love to enjoy FM4 again but this is turn 10, I think they go by the "there's no rush" saying

They issued an update that fixed an exploit glitch for the drag tracks and stripped the leaderboards in the time between the US and Euro releases of FM4, which would seem to be quick enough to me?

Resolving issues and then stripping leaderboards is dependent on a number of factors, the main ones being the complexity of the issue that requires resolving, the testing involved and the approval process (and that would apply to both T10 and PD - both of whom have appeared at time to be heel-dragging).

Let me honest about it any system that trying to match cars via a points based system is going to be problematic, you would have to be very brave to say that PP in GT5 are that much less open to exploits that PIs in FM4 (or has the Clio V6 RM in GT5P been that quickly forgotten).

Hell this is a topic that in the real world is fitted with the exact same issues, with the LeMans regs getting tweeked every year to try and get it right and the BTCC regs get messed with a couple of times every season.


Scaff

 

[MagpieRacer]

Not to mention he is wrong anyway because the bugged cars have already been removed from the leaderboards and banned from posting times.

Thus its already done.

 

[GTP_Plato]

They issued an update that fixed an exploit glitch for the drag tracks and stripped the leaderboards in the time between the US and Euro releases of FM4, which would seem to be quick enough to me?

Resolving issues and then stripping leaderboards is dependent on a number of factors, the main ones being the complexity of the issue that requires resolving, the testing involved and the approval process (and that would apply to both T10 and PD - both of whom have appeared at time to be heel-dragging).

Let me honest about it any system that trying to match cars via a points based system is going to be problematic, you would have to be very brave to say that PP in GT5 are that much less open to exploits that PIs in FM4 (or has the Clio V6 RM in GT5P been that quickly forgotten).

Hell this is a topic that in the real world is fitted with the exact same issues, with the LeMans regs getting tweeked every year to try and get it right and the BTCC regs get messed with a couple of times every season.


Scaff

Is Forza 4 your first experience of the series if you don't mind me asking Scaff?

There was a similar issue on FM3 where they had to wipe the boards and fix the cars with the P.I problems. If I remember correctly we were left waiting months for it to be fixed. That issue in the end was fixed and they wiped glitched times individually probably to avoid more upset from the rest of the community who didn't use these cars.

Then the issue with the AWD dominance surfaced and they left it as there wasn't much they could do about it. Dan even commented about this in the build up to FM4 if I remember correctly. There way of thinking to stop people complaining about the Audi S5 dominating was to bring out the hideous Porsche 550 that went on to dominate from F class all the way as far as S class. This car was even the free DLC car so they knew what they were doing.

The cars they have mentioned that are bugged are the correct ones in FM4, but I am certain there are many more cars with the exact same issues.

Glad to see they are listening though as they didn't seem to bother on FM3, at least the main issue for the steering wheels have been fixed, that was my main concern:tup:

Edit: Mild, thanks for posting that the issues with the leaderboards have been addressed, I may have to check this out

Edit 2 Leaderboards are not fixed, muscle cars are still there

 

[PzR Slim]

Is Forza 4 your first experience of the series if you don't mind me asking Scaff?

There was a similar issue on FM3 where they had to wipe the boards and fix the cars with the P.I problems. If I remember correctly we were left waiting months for it to be fixed. That issue in the end was fixed and they wiped glitched times individually probably to avoid more upset from the rest of the community who didn't use these cars.

Then the issue with the AWD dominance surfaced and they left it as there wasn't much they could do about it. Dan even commented about this in the build up to FM4 if I remember correctly. There way of thinking to stop people complaining about the Audi S5 dominating was to bring out the hideous Porsche 550 that went on to dominate from F class all the way as far as S class. This car was even the free DLC car so they knew what they were doing.

The cars they have mentioned that are bugged are the correct ones in FM4, but I am certain there are many more cars with the exact same issues.

Glad to see they are listening though as they didn't seem to bother on FM3, at least the main issue for the steering wheels have been fixed, that was my main concern:tup:

Edit: Mild, thanks for posting that the issues with the leaderboards have been addressed, I may have to check this out

Edit 2 Leaderboards are not fixed, muscle cars are still there

But we all know the important bit of any racing game is the handling. So what do you think of it now they have given us proper 1:1 steering. As for the leaderboards, I remember Dan talking about how this time they had implemented a system so that times could be much more easily removed. I believe they can remove the all the times set by a specific car. Give them time.

 

[Scaff]

Is Forza 4 your first experience of the series if you don't mind me asking Scaff?

No it would be my forth (and for the record GT would be my fifth not including Prologues for 4 and 5, concept, etc, etc).

There was a similar issue on FM3 where they had to wipe the boards and fix the cars with the P.I problems. If I remember correctly we were left waiting months for it to be fixed. That issue in the end was fixed and they wiped glitched times individually probably to avoid more upset from the rest of the community who didn't use these cars.

Then the issue with the AWD dominance surfaced and they left it as there wasn't much they could do about it. Dan even commented about this in the build up to FM4 if I remember correctly. There way of thinking to stop people complaining about the Audi S5 dominating was to bring out the hideous Porsche 550 that went on to dominate from F class all the way as far as S class. This car was even the free DLC car so they knew what they were doing.

The cars they have mentioned that are bugged are the correct ones in FM4, but I am certain there are many more cars with the exact same issues.

Glad to see they are listening though as they didn't seem to bother on FM3, at least the main issue for the steering wheels have been fixed, that was my main concern:tup:

Edit: Mild, thanks for posting that the issues with the leaderboards have been addressed, I may have to check this out

Edit 2 Leaderboards are not fixed, muscle cars are still there

All the above is indeed correct (never denied it - I was simply referring to the most specific recent example I could think of), and as I have also said both are capable of heel-dragging at times.

I still remember how long it took to be able to change individual gear ratios in GT5 (the absence of which at launch still amazes me given that tuning has always been a passion for me in the GT series), and I do believe that tyres are still absent from PP calculations in GT5.

However I also clearly mentioned (and maintain this) that this is an issue (PP/PI) that is almost imposable to fully resolve, strangly enough just like the real world a small group of cars will always tend to favour a specific way of calculation performance limits. Change the way you calculate it and those cars will almost certainly suffer, however another group will then be advantaged.

Neither GT nor FM will ever get this right, because its pretty much impossible to get right for every car and every track combo.


Scaff

 

[GTP_Plato]

But we all know the important bit of any racing game is the handling. So what do you think of it now they have given us proper 1:1 steering. As for the leaderboards, I remember Dan talking about how this time they had implemented a system so that times could be much more easily removed. I believe they can remove the all the times set by a specific car. Give them time.

Just had a go actually Slim and it is great now, I love both but I now spend a lot of my time on GT5 reason being I prefer the physics and think they are more realistic than FM4's.

I am not one of those that cares to much about exotic cars and graphics in games, I enjoy playing a game that gives me the best driving experience. I am one of those that like to compete on the leaderboards like yourself so all the exotics don't mean to much to me. I will drive them in lobbies with friends when they are about and racing, otherwise I stay well clear of lobbies in FM4 if they are not on. There's just to many people who like to use my car as a brake when going into corners

For this reason I spend most of my time in lobbies on GT because people seem to be a lot cleaner when racing.👍

I really hope turn 10 don't take as long as they did with FM3 to clean up the leaderboards and fix the glitched cars as I want to be enjoying both games.

With GT5 getting a lot of great updates it's improving at a rapid rate, if they do decide to ever put leaderboards in the game, I can only see one winner for me (as long as there aren't any bugs)

Were you in team VVV before PzR Slim? I have already mentioned what team I was in before. If you want to add me here is my current GT: vX DyNaMiCz Xv

If you do decide to add I may see you on track soon 👍

Edit: @ Scaff

Agreed that there is never going to be a perfect P.I/PP system, but the cars on the leaderboards at the moment need to be addressed ASAP, 4 or more seconds is beyond a joke I just want a more even playing field like a lot of other people.

Your more of a seasoned veteran than me when it comes to racing games

 

[MagpieRacer]

Edit: Mild, thanks for posting that the issues with the leaderboards have been addressed, I may have to check this out

Edit 2 Leaderboards are not fixed, muscle cars are still there

Ah thats not good. I saw a list of cars they were supposed to remove somewhere, I'l try find it again.

EDIT: In fact heres the whole quote:

How does this title update address issues with leaderboard cars?

With this title update, we are temporarily removing the ability for certain cars to post times on the leaderboards while we investigate refinements to our Performance Index system that will allow us to once again admit these cars back in the mix. The affected cars:

•1968 Dodge Dart HEMI Super Stock
•1970 Dodge Coronet Super Bee
•1965 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint GTA Stradale
•1967 Dodge Coronet W023
•1964 Ford Fairlane Thunderbolt
•1971 AMC Javelin-AMX
•1992 Lancia Delta Integrale EV0
•1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z28

In addition to this temporary removal of these cars from posting leaderboard times, we will be wiping the leaderboard times of those cars across different leaderboards. In a future title update, we’ll be addressing the PI refinements in greater detail and once again allowing these cars to post leaderboard times. Stay tuned for more in the future.

 

[GTP_Plato]

Ah thats not good. I saw a list of cars they were supposed to remove somewhere, I'l try find it again.

EDIT: In fact heres the whole quote:

How does this title update address issues with leaderboard cars?

With this title update, we are temporarily removing the ability for certain cars to post times on the leaderboards while we investigate refinements to our Performance Index system that will allow us to once again admit these cars back in the mix. The affected cars:

•1968 Dodge Dart HEMI Super Stock
•1970 Dodge Coronet Super Bee
•1965 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint GTA Stradale
•1967 Dodge Coronet W023
•1964 Ford Fairlane Thunderbolt
•1971 AMC Javelin-AMX
•1992 Lancia Delta Integrale EV0
•1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z28

In addition to this temporary removal of these cars from posting leaderboard times, we will be wiping the leaderboard times of those cars across different leaderboards. In a future title update, we’ll be addressing the PI refinements in greater detail and once again allowing these cars to post leaderboard times. Stay tuned for more in the future.

It looks like a long wait if today's update is anything to go by. I was about to post the same link but you beat me to it:tup:

We won't be seeing this fix until probably mid January at the earliest I would say

 

[PzR Slim]

Were you in team VVV before PzR Slim? I have already mentioned what team I was in before. If you want to add me here is my current GT: vX DyNaMiCz Xv

Added 👍

No I was never in VVV, always been PzR. I'm not really a hotlapper to be honest much prefer comp racing. I did quite a bit of lower class hotlapping back in FM2 as the PzR entry requirement was Top 100 in C class overall. I managed a couple of No. 1's and a load of top 5's & 10's. If someone gives me a decent car, can't tune to save my life, I reckon I could stick it top 25 quite easily and top 10 if I spent plenty of time on it but I'm a daddy now and I haven't got the time to spend hours chasing ghosts around anymore.

I really am enjoying the handling after this patch. I'm actually finding it more difficult than GT5 but that's probably to do with getting used to it after years of those little aids. It removed one of the big negatives that a lot of people have throw at FM in this discussion anyway. I still greatly enjoy both games but as a complete package FM does it for me and this patch has only strengthened that opinion.

 

[GTP_Plato]

Added 👍

No I was never in VVV, always been PzR. I'm not really a hotlapper to be honest much prefer comp racing. I did quite a bit of lower class hotlapping back in FM2 as the PzR entry requirement was Top 100 in C class overall. I managed a couple of No. 1's and a load of top 5's & 10's. If someone gives me a decent car, can't tune to save my life, I reckon I could stick it top 25 quite easily and top 10 if I spent plenty of time on it but I'm a daddy now and I haven't got the time to spend hours chasing ghosts around anymore.

I really am enjoying the handling after this patch. I'm actually finding it more difficult than GT5 but that's probably to do with getting used to it after years of those little aids. It removed one of the big negatives that a lot of people have throw at FM in this discussion anyway. I still greatly enjoy both but as a complete package FM does it for me and this patch has only strengthened that opinion.

I will be back to playing forza again once these cars are addressed, like I said unless your in a lobby with friends it becomes more difficult to get away from people that are using glitched cars.

Will accept the request when i'm next on:tup:

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Added 👍

No I was never in VVV, always been PzR. I'm not really a hotlapper to be honest much prefer comp racing. I did quite a bit of lower class hotlapping back in FM2 as the PzR entry requirement was Top 100 in C class overall. I managed a couple of No. 1's and a load of top 5's & 10's. If someone gives me a decent car, can't tune to save my life, I reckon I could stick it top 25 quite easily and top 10 if I spent plenty of time on it but I'm a daddy now and I haven't got the time to spend hours chasing ghosts around anymore.

I really am enjoying the handling after this patch. I'm actually finding it more difficult than GT5 but that's probably to do with getting used to it after years of those little aids. It removed one of the big negatives that a lot of people have throw at FM in this discussion anyway. I still greatly enjoy both games but as a complete package FM does it for me and this patch has only strengthened that opinion.

The handling could potentially be easier on the pad now on the limit and the same for the 270 degree wheels. I can only go by experience in Forza 4 demo but driving on the limit feels a bit arcadey. You can get away with a lot of bad driving. You should be able to catch pretty big slides like before if you turn more to countersteer or turn the amount of steering degrees down.

Getting a car out of balance in Forza is not punishing like it is in GT or real life. Hopefully sometime next year I will be able to get a wheel and the game to try it out and see how it feels and if there is an edge to the physics which is lacking so far in FM3 and FM4 demo.

 

[PzR Slim]

The handling could potentially be easier on the pad now on the limit and the same for the 270 degree wheels. I can only go by experience in Forza 4 demo but driving on the limit feels a bit arcadey. You can get away with a lot of bad driving. You should be able to catch pretty big slides like before if you turn more to countersteer or turn the amount of steering degrees down.

Getting a car out of balance in Forza is not punishing like it is in GT or real life. Hopefully sometime next year I will be able to get a wheel and the game to try it out and see how it feels and if there is an edge to the physics which is lacking so far in FM3 and FM4 demo.

There is no change to the pad or 270 degree wheels with this patch. And getting a car out of balance with a 900 degree after this patch is just as punishing as GT5 maybe even more so.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

There is no change to the pad or 270 degree wheels with this patch. And getting a car out of balance with a 900 degree after this patch is just as punishing as GT5 maybe even more so.

I would expect there would be a change for pad. Countersteering with throttle with pad made steering full lock and made it easier to lose control of a car. Lifting off and then countersteering with a pad when landing on a bump awkwardly made it easier to correct. I have mentioned it before but they made it similar to how GT5 behaved on a pad when getting a rear tyre on the grass. If it becomes progressive then it should be easier to countersteer.

It is still the same underlying the physics so it is still very forgiving, it is just that Forza 4 900 degree wheel users will now have to actually turn the steering wheel more. Drive a car like the Elise in GT5 on any comfort tyres and drive the same / similar car in Forza. I reckon you will find Forza much more forgiving as you should easily be able to recover pretty much all slides in FM4 as that is the nature of the physics. Drive like in 2nd gear or above and fling the car about in both games, you will find Forza very controllable but in GT you will be in a spin. I have no knowledge of how any Elise in Forza drives but I guess that is how it will work.

 

[PzR Slim]

I would expect there would be a change for pad. Countersteering with throttle with pad made steering full lock and made it easier to lose control of a car. Lifting off and then countersteering with a pad when landing on a bump awkwardly made it easier to correct. I have mentioned it before but they made it similar to how GT5 behaved on a pad when getting a rear tyre on the grass. If it becomes progressive then it should be easier to countersteer.

It is still the same underlying the physics so it is still very forgiving, it is just that Forza 4 900 degree wheel users will now have to actually turn the steering wheel more. Drive a car like the Elise in GT5 on any comfort tyres and drive the same / similar car in Forza. I reckon you will find Forza much more forgiving as you should easily be able to recover pretty much all slides in FM4 as that is the nature of the physics. Drive like in 2nd gear or above and fling the car about in both games, you will find Forza very controllable but in GT you will be in a spin.

I'm sat here at this very moment with a patched copy of FM4 playing with a 900 degree wheel, you have played the demo with a pad and you are telling me what it should be like. Really? I'm telling you what it is like. What becomes more apparent with every one of your posts is that you do not have a clue what you are talking about. Until you play the a patched copy of the game with a 900 degree steering wheel, please, do not make out like you know how the game handles because you have no idea.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I'm sat here at this very moment with a patched copy of FM4 playing with a 900 degree wheel, you have played the demo with a pad and you are telling me what it should be like. Really? I'm telling you what it is like. What becomes more apparent with every one of your posts is that you do not have a clue what you are talking about. Until you play the a patched copy of the game with a 900 degree steering wheel, please, do not make out like you know how the game handles because you have no idea.

It was the same story with Forza 3, people said I played a different version because I mentioned it had a permanent steering aid like Active Steering option in GT5. Both FM3 and FM4 demo had really high traction for corner exits. I have even talked about the demo having some kind of steering aid that is not active steering but changes steering speed. Dan Greenawalt denied it and people believed him at first because quite a number of people did not notice anything wrong with the steering. I think I have a good idea of how the physics work in the Forza game and with a wheel I will think I will be really competitive in any Forza game. If ISR got fooled by Forza 3 then it is easily understandable casuals and even hardcore sim-racers will too. I look at the fundamentals of how everything works so I will notice things quite easily and quickly such as active steering in Forza 3. Kaz Yamauchi first impressions of Forza 3 was probably like me, is this seriously meant to be a top sim? Forza 4 is better as they got rid of the full on active steering in FM3 but it needs to get an edge to the car physics.

 

[PzR Slim]

It was the same story with Forza 3, people said I played a different version because I mentioned it had a permanent steering aid like Active Steering option in GT5. Both FM3 and FM4 demo had really high traction for corner exits. I have even talked about the demo having some kind of steering aid that is not active steering but changes steering speed. Dan Greenawalt denied it and people believed him at first because quite a number of people did not notice anything wrong with the steering. I think I have a good idea of how the physics work in the Forza game and with a wheel I will think I will be really competitive in any Forza game. If ISR got fooled by Forza 3 then it is easily understandable casuals and even hardcore sim-racers will too. I look at the fundamentals of how everything works so I will notice things quite easily and quickly such as active steering in Forza 3. Kaz Yamauchi first impressions of Forza 3 was probably like me, is this seriously meant to be a top sim? Forza 4 is better as they got rid of the full on active steering in FM3 but it needs to get an edge to the car physics.

And once again you confirm the suspicions off my previous post. There was no steering aid before just a bug that turned a 900 degree wheel into a 270 degree wheel when counter steering making it easier and quicker to reach large counter steering angles. That bug is now gone and we have full 1:1, none speed sensitive steering when using a 900 degree wheel.