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BS indeed! Playing both iRacing and FM4 with a Fanatec GT2 w/Clubsport pedals regularly will teach that aside from being more customizable, both games work really well with a good quality setup. A Greenawalt hater and thats it.
Forza Motorsport 5 |OT| Where dreams are Realised
- Thread starter phillgt2002
- 1,397 comments
- 101,256 views
BS indeed! Playing both iRacing and FM4 with a Fanatec GT2 w/Clubsport pedals regularly will teach that aside from being more customizable, both games work really well with a good quality setup. A Greenawalt hater and thats it.
@Imari: I think he meant that it's a joke if T10 turned to Calspan for physics and then built the game for gamepads. Which is still a silly assertion, but not so trollish.
If you don't, you don't have to worry about whether the FFB is any good or not. You can enjoy the tire model and physics engine without interference, from problems with the FFB or the quality of your wheel. It's true that you miss out on the physical actions of turning a wheel and pressing the pedals, but in return you get to kick up your feet and relax while you play. It's a tradeoff; you sacrifice precision for consistency, and immersion for convenience.
But the bottom line is, a simulator designed for multiple types of controllers is not limited in any way by the "simplest" type. Like I'm Motarded said, I think every PC sim out there offers keyboard/mouse steering; it's common sense to allow the player to use the default input device that everyone has, or is presumed to have.
When FFB isn't quite up to par, it's distracting. When the FFB is poor, it ruins the driving experience. This is actually the very reason I stick to a gamepad with console games -- nothing I've sampled has good enough FFB. If you're going to use a wheel to play a game, the quality of the FFB is paramount.
As I said above, I agree with you, FFB and wheel control are the most important aspects of a racing simulation...if you use a wheel to play it.
If you don't, you don't have to worry about whether the FFB is any good or not. You can enjoy the tire model and physics engine without interference, from problems with the FFB or the quality of your wheel. It's true that you miss out on the physical actions of turning a wheel and pressing the pedals, but in return you get to kick up your feet and relax while you play. It's a tradeoff; you sacrifice precision for consistency, and immersion for convenience.
But the bottom line is, a simulator designed for multiple types of controllers is not limited in any way by the "simplest" type. Like I'm Motarded said, I think every PC sim out there offers keyboard/mouse steering; it's common sense to allow the player to use the default input device that everyone has, or is presumed to have.
- 40,767
lol false equivalency
- 198
- WY
- SlyNine
That has nothing to do with how the car is reacting. most of the information you're going on in a virtual racing game is visual if you're using a controller, otho I use sound a lot to hear what the tires are doing. To make them right you still have to have the physics engine doing what it should. I can easily tell what GT5 is doing wrong while using a controller.
Plus I call questionable premise, there is no reason to think that there will be bad FFB support. They can design it with both in mind and make both good. It's not mutually excluding thing, both can happen.
Plus, your using circler logic. Why is Dan Greenawalt a joke? because of the flawed logic you used in the first place. the second you replace that with cogent thinking all your statements become null.
Iracing can be played with a controller, and its poorly optimized. If they just dynamically changed the steering mapping based on the speed and angle of the car (what Forza does) it would be very playable with a controller. A lot of purists would cry, yes, probably why they haven't done so. But you could make the same system for a real car and it would function the same, so realism isn't really compromised.
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- 674
- M.I.A
O.K you win with Logitech, 900 I'll give PD some credit for, but not with the T500 that's hardly what I'd call a development process. Doesn't sound very hands-on in either cases really, well not as much as I'd imagine it to be. The Dial is to the PS just what a keyboard is to the PC, and isn't tied to the physics.
How?
Your coment is way more ******** then mine, I never said a game can't be coded for both controllers and FFB at the same time, I said Forza controls are coded to suit a hand controller, there are hidden aids and one of the most important parts in the cars physics - the braking simulation is a complete joke. Now considering the information and reasouces T10 and Dan Greenawalt have and what they have achieved in the physics and controls coding without a hate I will say once again they are a joke, especially considering this arrogant fool states every single time that he is a perfectionist and enthusiast. Look what a company of few talented developers have done with rFactor and especially Assetto Corsa. By the way I have played every single racing and flight simulation from the year 2000 and have more then 20 real life track days plus one amateur race, if Greenawalt has so high opinion about himself and his staff he should prove himself to people like me and not to the kids and the fanboys.
- 40,767
Do people who buy $2800 PC wheels have dozens of other options, as well as hundreds of games to use them with? Yes. That's where the comparison is completely torpedoed, but I'll go on.
Are people forced into buying those $2800 PC wheels to replace the (for the purposes of this hypothetical, identically-priced) wheels that they already had if they want to play games with one because Microsoft changed something and made all of the older ones moot? No. Continuing the hypothetical, are those $2800 PC wheels identical in functionality to the ones that they have to replace because Microsoft changed something and made them all moot? Yes, since they are belt-driven, commercial-grade wheels and there isn't much more that can be done to make them better at the price point; and the Ferrari wheel is a regular twin-gear design lacking the controls that most of the similarly priced ones you could use on the 360 had, in addition to the ability to use it as a PC wheel.
More importantly, does "because they want" amount to anything more than a "deal with it" response to a question that was pseudo-rhetorical to begin with? No, it doesn't; though thank you for reminding me that, yes, people can spend their own money the way that they want. I wasn't aware of that until just now.
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- 674
- M.I.A
What hidden assists are there with a wheel (must be in FM4, unless you have played 5)?
It's true, there maybe some issues with the 900 wheels with some cars, but the game plays just as well as any other I've played @ 270 which is really what the game was designed for since FM2. They made efforts into that with patches etc in 4, no doubt it will not stop there.
Funny that you mention rFactor a game that needed two FFB plugins (realfeel, leos) to gain kind of realistic non-canned FFB, and assetto corsa which hasn't been released yet with no release date in sight.
What's the matter with the Braking simulation? And what do you think of the clutch simulation?
lol you're doing the same thing as me then.
The console is barely completed, and only a few accessories and games have been announced, yet people are forced to buy a $400 wheel for a single game, and comparing it to a platform that's been here since the beginning of time with a ton of accessories?
No people don't have to "Deal with it", they could wait until they see what the madcatz wheel will cost and if there are any others from entirely different manufacturers, or wait until there a decent library of games on the XB1 before making a decision. We still don't know that our hardware won't work, many thought the same about headsets, until the adapter was announced. I think that torpedo was way, way off target.
Also many PC games are making the switch to DX11 only meaning many will need to upgrade hardware to play modern games, is this really that much different?
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I agree that Greenawalt is full of hot air, but that's not really relevant. I'd probably also agree that the previous Forza titles were a "joke" in terms of simulation, but that's in the past. In spite of Dan's attitude, FM4 really is a fine simulator. It needs improvement, but it's better than most alternatives.
Anyway, I really can't comment on the FM4 experience with a wheel -- I've only briefly sampled a cheap MS wheel -- so I don't know about the "hidden aids" with that setup, but any such hidden aids would be a control issue, not a physics flaw. Similarly, the limitations of a gamepad and the assists employed to mitigate them are a matter of controls, not physics. If you've got a beef with hidden assists on a wheel in FM4, the problem is hidden assists on a wheel, not the physics/simulation. They're separate things.
- 13,865
- Adelaide
- Neomone
I think people overestimate how important FFB is sometimes.
Yes, it's much more immersive. Yes, it's extra information that isn't really available anywhere else. But if you turn off the FFB on your wheel and just turn on a simple spring, after 10 or 15 minutes to get used to the different feel you'll probably be going just as fast.
Simulations on console and PC are strongly geared towards visual information and simply learning what will happen before it does through trial and error. There's too much information missing for it to be made up in FFB. Realistically, good FFB helps you feel where the bumps are on the track (which may or may not be useful and is usually also displayed visually) and helps catch slides at the right angle when the back of the car seriously kicks out. That's about it, otherwise it's just a nice-to-have.
Yes, it's much more immersive. Yes, it's extra information that isn't really available anywhere else. But if you turn off the FFB on your wheel and just turn on a simple spring, after 10 or 15 minutes to get used to the different feel you'll probably be going just as fast.
Simulations on console and PC are strongly geared towards visual information and simply learning what will happen before it does through trial and error. There's too much information missing for it to be made up in FFB. Realistically, good FFB helps you feel where the bumps are on the track (which may or may not be useful and is usually also displayed visually) and helps catch slides at the right angle when the back of the car seriously kicks out. That's about it, otherwise it's just a nice-to-have.
- 4,381
Tingri:
The game has no hidden assists (FM4) as such. When you're on a controller, the game simply mimics steering based on the speed and angle of the car, as one member so rightly pointed out. If they hadn't incorporated this assist (if that's what you want to call it) in the game, cars would be all over the place, and it would simply be downright awkward to get an accurate feel for each car's steering.
Furthermore, it's all a matter of setting up your controller right: sim steering, inside deadzone to zero, outside max. Make very intricate corrections while entering and exiting corners. About it. All other assists off.
I recall a game called Rally Cross on the PS1. At the time there were no analog sticks. I had to rely on a little bit of feedback (vibration) and the car's suspension feedback, coupled with screen movement. Brilliant suspension geometry in that game! And a testament to the fact, that games, be it racing games or sims, can be enjoyed and mastered with controllers or wheels. It's a matter of the right kind of steering mapping, along with other essentials - physics, screen movement, response time.
Also, I'd have to disagree bigtime when you say "braking is a joke" in FM4. EVERY single aspect pertaining to physics has been noticeably improved since F3. And I anticipate since FM5 is on next gen, the leaps and bounds in physics can be huge. Whether you use a wheel or a controller, the *steering mapping system* essentially remains the same, I assure you.
The game has no hidden assists (FM4) as such. When you're on a controller, the game simply mimics steering based on the speed and angle of the car, as one member so rightly pointed out. If they hadn't incorporated this assist (if that's what you want to call it) in the game, cars would be all over the place, and it would simply be downright awkward to get an accurate feel for each car's steering.
Furthermore, it's all a matter of setting up your controller right: sim steering, inside deadzone to zero, outside max. Make very intricate corrections while entering and exiting corners. About it. All other assists off.
I recall a game called Rally Cross on the PS1. At the time there were no analog sticks. I had to rely on a little bit of feedback (vibration) and the car's suspension feedback, coupled with screen movement. Brilliant suspension geometry in that game! And a testament to the fact, that games, be it racing games or sims, can be enjoyed and mastered with controllers or wheels. It's a matter of the right kind of steering mapping, along with other essentials - physics, screen movement, response time.
Also, I'd have to disagree bigtime when you say "braking is a joke" in FM4. EVERY single aspect pertaining to physics has been noticeably improved since F3. And I anticipate since FM5 is on next gen, the leaps and bounds in physics can be huge. Whether you use a wheel or a controller, the *steering mapping system* essentially remains the same, I assure you.
- 4,381
If no racing game should be developed for a hand controller, then I guess gamers should be forced to buy a complete sim kit, which would include a cockpit, dash, seat, wheel and pedals. Games made for consoles and PCs, in no way make it mandatory to have a certain peripheral in order to take full advantage of physics or a prerequisite in order to enjoy the game as the devs intended. **Dan Greenawalt is a joke if he turned to Calspan**. Sir, are you aware of Calspan? It's a science and tech firm, google it and you'll come to know this is a HUGE step forward in terms of T10 incorporating physics in the next Forza. Be it a wheel or a controller, your driving style largely remains the same. So in order to improve or get more out of the game, the driving style needs to change/improve, not any given peripheral. FFB is not in fact, the only link between the gamer and virtual physics. Screen movement, audio ques and a good understanding of how fast cars behave when pushed over the edge, plays a major role.
I second that, 1000+. 👍
PC games were never really marketed to go along or only work properly with wheels. Handful of sims out there that are perfectly enjoyable with a mouse+keyboard combo, or a PC game controller. **If you say PD because they slapped a GT logo on two brands of wheels I will laugh out loud.**. I'm trying to resist the urge myself here!
BS indeed! Playing both iRacing and FM4 with a Fanatec GT2 w/Clubsport pedals regularly will teach that aside from being more customizable, both games work really well with a good quality setup. A Greenawalt hater and thats it.
Quality set up, there you have it. It's all in the optimization. 💡
I don't think he's a troll. Possibly unaware of what it is Calspan does.
Exactly. Being able to enjoy the game equally with a wheel and controller, and the cars exhibiting realistic behavior with both, is sign of a well tuned physics and handling engine. Both GT and Forza have been able to implement the controller and wheel rather well. **But you could make the same system for a real car and it would function the same, so realism isn't really compromised**. RIGHT on the money! 👍
- 1,534
- Bazra1985
- xSHAx BaZrA
http://www.forzamotorsport.fr/news/...-son-nouveau-volant-pour-xbox-one-159832.html
Some good pictures of the new Madcatz wheel here, it shows it is a 900 degree wheel !!
Most will be disappointed with the lack of clutch and shifter but for me it looks like exactly the wheel i'm after.
Does anyone understand what the guard on the right of the accelerator pedal is there for?
Some good pictures of the new Madcatz wheel here, it shows it is a 900 degree wheel !!
Most will be disappointed with the lack of clutch and shifter but for me it looks like exactly the wheel i'm after.
Does anyone understand what the guard on the right of the accelerator pedal is there for?
- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
Is that an actual ff wheel?
I read somewhere its just a centre spring effect.
I read somewhere its just a centre spring effect.
- 1,534
- Bazra1985
- xSHAx BaZrA
It has dual FFB motors, definitely FFB.
- 169
That's the driveclub wheel.
Zer0
(Banned)
- 1,624
I don't know what are you trying to prove, this was your quote:
"Which game studios actually develops their own wheels by the way? If you say PD because they slapped a GT logo on two brands of wheels I will laugh out loud."
Those wheels exist thanks to Kaz and GT, they were developed with some requirements in mind and made to order because at the time there wasn't anything comercially like that. PC sims have benefited from GT developed wheels and features since years. If you thought that were only a GT badge in front of the wheel with no more implication I think that there is enought evidence that prove that you are very wrong.
Anyway you would find much more info if there was some development diary, but not. There are some T500 details in the fb page, is not just Kaz asking them a wheel with a vague quote and waiting until it's ready.
https://www.facebook.com/ThrustmasterRacingTeam
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- Goes_To_11 GTP_GoesTo11
The wheel looks really good, the pedals look cheap to me. What do we know about the TM? IF it has the same internals as the T500 AND is compatible with the PC, it looks like a good deal to me. You can use different pedals and shifter on PC. I'd almost buy the wheel just to use on my pc. If it is truly only works for the xbox one or has cheaper internals, it isn't a very good deal. I wonder how much the mad catz wheel is going to cost. They talk is if it is a high end wheel and the wheel itself definitely looks good. I'm guessing that it will cost around $300.
King1982
(Banned)
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- 90203
- King1982
Dude go back to that hole you crawled out off. You are the joke. Somebody please send this guy on a vacation.
I suggest you read and listen too this.
http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/08...-doors-youve-never-driven-anything-like-this/
- 10,956
- Canada
WHOA!!!! 
Be careful King, don't want you getting in trouble. 
Be careful King, don't want you getting in trouble. Dude go back to that hole you crawled out off. You are the joke. Somebody please send this guy on a vacation.
I suggest you read and listen too this.
http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/08...-doors-youve-never-driven-anything-like-this/
And where you crawled from, you little man using a photo of a big man,you little fanboy advising me to listen to some hot air filled CEO trying to sell you another addiction, I passed the time I'll invest time and money in games and corporations, especially when they don't protect my interests and investments ( Fanatec CSR Elite) for trying to sell me another lower quality useless crap wheels. You crawl to Microsoft and T10, I will crawl and invest this 1000$ (new console and wheel money) to my new Clio RS 172 LPG project -one of the fastest and most economic LPG fueled 2.0 liter NA FWD sports car in the world.
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- 28,314
- Brooklyn, NY
- KR_Viper
- I Renown I
That's enough of that, both of you need to knock it off.
I don't care who started what.
I don't care who started what.
- 4,118
- United States
Feisty. I don't think a single FM thread will be peaceful.
- 1,258
- NY, NY
- GTP_shawtyoner
- shawtyoner
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