GP of Brazil 2007

[peterjford]

But had McLaren not been excluded from the championship Ferrari still would have won both titles.

Only if you count McLaren not getting points in Hungary because of the pit lane antics during qualifying, which I would count... or I guess not count... the points that is.

He ran over a meter of grass and then onto concrete then back over a meter of grass. If that broke the bullet-proof McLaren I’ll eat my shirt.

I remember there being a replay (on SPEED in the US) and there was a lot of debris kicked up and the rumble strips seemed to be a bit rough on the car.

 

[Slick Rick]

how annoying is james allen?

Yea tell me about it. Sniffpetrol launched a 'stop the c*ck' campaign a while ago, turns out quite a lot of people find him annoying too

I kinda feel bad for Massa, he really deserves more credit I think. Hopefully he will be right in the championship battle with Kimi, Hamilton and Coulthard next year


And the people criticizing Hamilton's mistake in the first few corners remember this is his first year in F1.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

How so?

Alonso and Hamilton 218 points, Kimi and Massa 206.

Of course I'm forgetting the farce of Hungary.

Did you just call Alonso a farce?

I believe Ferrari ended up with 204 points, and McLaren 203 points. Even if McLaren had scored one more point, Ferrari would have won based on having the most wins.

Here's what's interesting about the Constructor’s Championship as well. If I recall correctly, one of the conditions of McLaren's $100 million dollar fine is that they still get the prize money for their standings in the Constructor's Championship, which would then be used to partly pay off the fine. Had McLaren ended with the most points, while they would not have won the championship, they would have cut that fine in half, as the Constructor with the most points at the end of the season is awarded $50 million dollars, at least that's what I recall.

Does anyone know what the second place constructor get's as far as prize money?

 

[Diego440]

But don't the still get last place, regardless of the points... I mean, wasn't part of the penalty that they were stripped off all points?

He ran over a meter of grass and then onto concrete then back over a meter of grass. If that broke the bullet-proof McLaren I’ll eat my shirt.

I didn't say that broke the car. I said stones and/or dirt clogged up his hydraulics and that caused the temperatures to go up and his gears wouldn't work... or that's what Pedro said.

 

[Metar]

Perhaps the percents go like the points for a race?


(Oh, whoops. You can't give 240% just to the top three )

 

[Diego440]

Incidentally, I find it very sad that the Spanish press and Spaniards in general "celebrated" the loss of Hamilton... one's own happiness mustn't depend on another's misery, my dad used to say.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

But don't the still get last place, regardless of the points... I mean, wasn't part of the penalty that they were stripped off all points?

For the "Title", yes, but as I said, part of the terms of the penalty & fine was that McLaren would still be paid the prize money for how they "would" have finished, and that money would then be applied to the fine.

 

[<_Spike_>]

Thought they'd be more down about their "hero" ending up 3rd in the Championship and losing his crown...guess it goes to show how much they seem to hate Hamilton.

 

[Lee]

Incidentally, I find it very sad that the Spanish press and Spaniards in general "celebrated" the loss of Hamilton... one's own happiness mustn't depend on another's misery, my dad used to say.

Meh we over here celebrated Alonso's loss, all is fair..

 

[RACECAR]

If that broke the bullet-proof McLaren I’ll eat my shirt.

Would you like an apple pie with that?

 

[TS]

Nah, someone at that moment walked in with a fresh bottle of Vodka and a Gorilla suit.

So McLaren gets pinged in a big way for breaking the rules, yet BMW and Williams get away with it. Talk about being consistent when it comes to enforcing the rules

That pretty much shows most of the penalties made in motorsports, inconsistent.

Yesterday, Hamilton showed that he is (was, the season is over), indeed, a rookie. The mistake in the first lap, and the way he treated his car after that, can only come from inexperience.

It's his own fault (and of course Kimi's merit) that he lost this championship. All he needed to do was to "sit behind" Alonso for the entire race ...

57 years of F1, still no rookie champion.

But you really can't blame Hamilton for losing the title, you really have to blame the car for stalling out on him early in the race, and he had to work himself from 18th to 7th.

 

[Danoff]

But you really can't blame Hamilton for losing the title, you really have to blame the car for stalling out on him early in the race, and he had to work himself from 18th to 7th.

Can I can blame him for racing China too hard and ending up with a big DNF?

 

[<_Spike_>]

Not when it was a team decision to leave him out 2 laps too long, though you could blame the pit entry 50% on him...50% on Trulli (a back marker) getting in the way.

 

[Danoff]

Not when it was a team decision to leave him out 2 laps too long, though you could blame the pit entry 50% on him...50% on Trulli (a back marker) getting in the way.

So the team forced him to drive that hard despite the conditions and his point standing? Or did they force him to go to fast in the pit lane. Maybe they timed his pit too late, but he could recognize that and drive accordingly - or even suggest that his tires aren't in the condition to go that long.

 

[TS]

Can I can blame him for racing China too hard and ending up with a big DNF?

Not when it was a team decision to leave him out 2 laps too long, though you could blame the pit entry 50% on him...50% on Trulli (a back marker) getting in the way.

I'm with Spike on this one, it was more the teams fault for leaving him out too long at China. However, if he had kept the car moving instead of letting it coast to a stop, he probably would've got out of the gravel and into the pits, but he would've lost a ton of track position.

EDIT:

So the team forced him to drive that hard despite the conditions and his point standing? Or did they force him to go to fast in the pit lane. Maybe they timed his pit too late, but he could recognize that and drive accordingly - or even suggest that his tires aren't in the condition to go that long.

You bring up a good point there, but when you mentioned the team timing his pit too late, Hamilton's inexperience came up regarding his reacting to driving with the extremely worn tires.

 

[Kylehnat]

Hamilton cracked under extreme pressure...twice. Understandable for a 22 year-old rookie. I suspect he'll come back next year with a cooler head, and drive more like he did at the beginning of this year.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So the team forced him to drive that hard despite the conditions and his point standing? Or did they force him to go to fast in the pit lane. Maybe they timed his pit too late, but he could recognize that and drive accordingly - or even suggest that his tires aren't in the condition to go that long.

The man has a point. If GT is anything to go by, tyres don't suddenly go from maximum grip to nothing unless you get a blowout. It happens over time, which means Hamilton surely felt that his tyres were at the end of their life. He had every opportunity to drive a little more carefully, but instead ended up sliding off.

 

[Blake]

I am still in a small state of shock that everything could fall into place for a driver that has been so notoriously unlucky. It is all just improbable, but yet it managed to happen yesterday. It was yet another magical moment in a season that has had a great multitude of them. This will be a year I hope to never forget and hopefully when I am old, I will be able to tell someone the story of Kimi’s improbable comeback (and that story will include the young rookie who turned into a superstar in his first year and the two-time champion who almost willed his way to another championship).

It really is just such a fairytale story. It will be one of those things that will go down in F1 history as one of the defining races. One of the defining seasons. At the start of the year when we said there were 4 genuine title contenders I don’t think any of us could have imagined ending up with 3 of them separated by a single point.

I remember how shattered we both were in 2005. It feels like things have been set right.

You want fries with that?

Would you like an apple pie with that?

“My finger slipped on the steering wheel.”

I’ll have the fries, you two can share the shirt.

 

[niky]

Err... What did he do? He passed Hamilton in turn 3, perfectly legally and very safe. He had the inside line, he was already halfway through.

But... you.. should... follow... team... orders!

Yeah, I did say 'all's fair'. It wasn't a close overtake, but a good team-mate would have given his partner some space to recover... ah... who'm I kidding...

It was in that sequence where Kimi could have taken the lead from Massa or Massa could have just zoomed off and left Kimi to contend with Lewis, but they acted like a team. Alonso overtaking Hamilton and then Hamilton scrambling all over the back of Alonso, were obviously not.

Certainly - and given that all teams know where all the cars are on the track at any time, there can be no doubt that Massa exiting in traffic and Kimi having a clear track for 2 laps before he pitted was entirely coincidental.

You know, I was of the opinion that it was a legitimate accident before you pointed this out...

Curse you and your overwhelmingly convincing logic!

-----

I'd say Lewis didn't so much as crack as get a bit overexcited. He was still putting in some pretty convincing laps, but the gaps in his racecraft (overtaking, etcetera) seemed to be showing through in this race.

But for a boy who's driving for the first time on this circuit, I'd say he did wonderfully. It's just disappointing that his performance wasn't of the overwhelmingly dominating kind we've been expecting of him.

But WTF, it made for a more interesting race. 👍

 

[mipuumal]

Certainly - and given that all teams know where all the cars are on the track at any time, there can be no doubt that Massa exiting in traffic and Kimi having a clear track for 2 laps before he pitted was entirely coincidental.

So Ferrari should've let Massa stay out and run out of fuel while searching for a good gap? Or short fill him and have him do a 3rd pitstop near the end?

And let's say that Massa helped Kimi... SO WHAT?!? Massa has said for the last couple of weeks that he would help Kimi if the situation occured.

 

[Alex.]

I am backing Massa for the championship next year. If Ferrari get their reliability right next season, judging by his performances of late I think he can do it.

 

[Famine]

So Ferrari should've let Massa stay out and run out of fuel while searching for a good gap? Or short fill him and have him do a 3rd pitstop near the end?

And let's say that Massa helped Kimi... SO WHAT?!? Massa has said for the last couple of weeks that he would help Kimi if the situation occured.

And let's say that McLaren helped Hamilton more than Alonso. SO WHAT?!?


You missed the point entirely - I have no problem with team orders. The issue is that the FIA felt the need to appoint an observer to keep an eye on McLaren and make sure they treated the drivers equally (and the points don't lie on that one), but not to keep an eye on Ferrari or anyone else and make sure they treated their drivers equally.

Why does it matter to the FIA that drivers in one specific team are treated equally? Perhaps they should hand out car numbers as "1" and "A" for team 1, "2" and "B" for team 2 and so on, just so that no driver has a lesser number than his team-mate...

 

[Blake]

Why does it matter to the FIA that drivers in one specific team are treated equally?

Because Mosely promised Alonso that McLaren wouldn’t sodomise the young Spaniard for giving evidence.

 

[Famine]

Because Mosely promised Alonso that McLaren wouldn’t sodomise the young Spaniard for giving evidence.

The team would only hurt themselves if they hamstrung one driver - as the banana-faced cheat proved, a win is much easier with a wingman to back you up.

 

[mipuumal]

You missed the point entirely - I have no problem with team orders. The issue is that the FIA felt the need to appoint an observer to keep an eye on McLaren and make sure they treated the drivers equally (and the points don't lie on that one), but not to keep an eye on Ferrari or anyone else and make sure they treated their drivers equally.

The observer wasn't there because of team orders. The observer was there because Alonso implied that someone had sabotaged his car in Fuji and Shanghai by raising the tyre pressures for qualifying.

On the ITV broadcast James Allen kept talking about how "Hamilton only needs to get one more position and then McLaren can radio Alonso and tell him to let Hamilton pass".

James Allen is a moron yes, but McLaren probably would've asked Alonso to let him by if the situation arose regardless of the observer. Of course it's another question whether Alonso would've let Hamilton pass (and for what price).

 

[Famine]

The observer wasn't there because of team orders. The observer was there because Alonso implied that someone had sabotaged his car in Fuji and Shanghai by raising the tyre pressures for qualifying.

Alonso has his own pit crew and chief engineer he brought with him from Renault.

James Allen is a moron

Total agreement!

 

[Blake]

The team would only hurt themselves if they hamstrung one driver - as the banana-faced cheat proved, a win is much easier with a wingman to back you up.

And that makes the FIA any less retarded how?

I know we&#8217;re on the same side here, but I thought we were saying the FIA is stupid, not McLaren.

 

[Famine]

Well... I was. The FIA don't need to keep an eye on a top team to make sure they treat their drivers equally, because if the team didn't treat their drivers equally they'd hamper both of them.

And it's in no way against FIA rules in any case.

 

[Blake]

Yeah, I know. We discussed this earlier, anyway. No point rehashing it IMO, I think we all reached the consensus that it made no sense.

 

[Pupik]

How long would the fuel stay that dense, though? Surely it doesn&#8217;t take that long for it to warm up&#8230;

Exactly! Teams tried the chilled-fuel trick in 1984 (when re-fueling was first banned). It didn't work: The fuel warmed up in the 10-15 minutes while the car waited on the grid. I highly doubt an F1 car would carry the added weight of refrigeration devices to gain a tiny amount of fuel.

Just before the start, SpeedTV showed the ambient temperature of the race at 95 degrees Fahrenheit, while the newly-paved track temperature was recorded at...145F!

Oh, and the FIA sent a rep to Japan to make sure the 1988 title was fair between its two drivers were treated equally, but their names and the team are lost to history...