Grand Prix de Monaco 2017Formula 1

[Michelin Man]

I'm just upset there weren't more shots of Hamilton fighting his way through the field. Did he overtake anyone or did they just pit in front of him?

Believe he just gained in the pit stop phase by staying out longer.

 

[Mike_grpA]

Just my two cents but the fair thing for Kimi was to have Vettel pit the lap after him. Instead, Vettel stayed out five more laps on a day when it was better to extend that first stint as long as possible. Drivers like Ricciardo and Hamilton gained positions that way.

For me, I get the impression that Ferrari simply went with the wrong strategy for Kimi. More of a mistake than intentional but either way, I can't really blame Kimi for being upset.

No, that is in no way fair. If you are to be fair to one of your drivers, you be fair to both of them. Ferrari gave both of their drivers fair opportunity to win the race, and only one of them had the pace to get the job done.

If they forced Seb to pit right after Kimi, it would be unfair to Seb, who clearly had tons more pace left in his tyres. Kimi had to pit, because at that stage he was a second a lap slower than Bottas and both Bulls. Kimi's poor pace and even worse tyre management led to him needing an earlier stop than Seb, so it was fair to him to get him on fresh tyres to improve his pace, and it was fair to Seb to at least let him try to lap faster if he could.

At the end of the day the fastest driver won the race. Kimi should be happy with second, since it's better than he's done at any other race this year, while Seb has won half the races and finished second in the other half.

I don't even know why anyone is even discussing this (other than salty Kimi fanboys). Seb has thoroughly thrashed Kimi for over two years now, and is thrashing him even more this year. Kimi fans should be happy that he at least has a good car this year, and has the chance to get some good results before he inevitably retires. Ferrari really should have replaced him at the end of last year.

If Ferrari forced Seb to pit right after Kimi, it would have been them literally gifting a win to their slower driver, who will never have a hope of competing with Seb and Lewis for the title. It makes no sense at all to gift your slower driver wins. If he earned it and they used team orders to force him to give it up, then I would understand people being upset, but he lost it all on his own.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Kimi got done by Ferrari and Verstappen by RBR, in the end for both teams it did not matter, but those two will probably not be happy.

How do you figure? Verstappen is more the prodigal son of RBR in this moment than Ric, but they're both loved so it makes no sense from that aspect to screw over their driver. Also the nature of Monaco played better for Daniel than Max end of. As for Kimi he was slow, showed it in every stint compared to Vettel even with clean air, the FIA has the lap data for you if you need your conspiracy busted.

I'm just upset there weren't more shots of Hamilton fighting his way through the field. Did he overtake anyone or did they just pit in front of him?

He overtook on the start, and one other car, the rest dropped out or were gained from pits.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I was incredibly disappointed to see Vandoorne go out. I like Perez, but he did clobber his way through once or teice.

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

No, that is in no way fair. If you are to be fair to one of your drivers, you be fair to both of them. Ferrari gave both of their drivers fair opportunity to win the race, and only one of them had the pace to get the job done.

If they forced Seb to pit right after Kimi, it would be unfair to Seb, who clearly had tons more pace left in his tyres. Kimi had to pit, because at that stage he was a second a lap slower than Bottas and both Bulls. Kimi's poor pace and even worse tyre management led to him needing an earlier stop than Seb, so it was fair to him to get him on fresh tyres to improve his pace, and it was fair to Seb to at least let him try to lap faster if he could.

At the end of the day the fastest driver won the race. Kimi should be happy with second, since it's better than he's done at any other race this year, while Seb has won half the races and finished second in the other half.

I don't even know why anyone is even discussing this (other than salty Kimi fanboys). Seb has thoroughly thrashed Kimi for over two years now, and is thrashing him even more this year. Kimi fans should be happy that he at least has a good car this year, and has the chance to get some good results before he inevitably retires. Ferrari really should have replaced him at the end of last year.

If Ferrari forced Seb to pit right after Kimi, it would have been them literally gifting a win to their slower driver, who will never have a hope of competing with Seb and Lewis for the title. It makes no sense at all to gift your slower driver wins. If he earned it and they used team orders to force him to give it up, then I would understand people being upset, but he lost it all on his own.

First off, I've already mentioned in prior races that Kimi is a step behind Vettel and Hamilton, maybe even Bottas. At any other track, Kimi wouldn't even be in the picture.

However, he did win the pole at the hardest place to overtake and he held onto 1st past the first corner up to the pit stop. At Monaco, the winner is the one that stays ahead, regardless of pace. It may not be right but until F1 goes elsewhere, that's how it goes. As the leader, Kimi should've been given the preferential treatment for pit strategy. It just so happened that unlike most places, coming in first ended up being the less desirable option. I don't believe that was the intention, though, since Mercedes brought in Bottas around the same time. They might've thought they could undercut Vettel but it backfired by having Ricciardo beat them with the overcut.

Kimi's upset because even he knows that Monaco was his best and likely only shot of nabbing a win this season, maybe even for his career. He did everything right on his end by earning the pole and holding the lead but couldn't control when he came in to pit.

 

[Tajima]

Kimi lost his race when he wasted too much time lapping a McLaren and a Sauber. Bottas gained something like 5 seconds and was too close to Seb. Ferrari was forced to pit one car to prevent Bottas + Verstappen undercut on Kimi and Sebastian. Not to mention that a safety car in the pit window could have been potentially disastrous for booth of them. IMO they take a big risk with Seb but he was fast enough to 'overcut' Kimi. Pitwall guys had to make fast decisions and Kimi should have been way more aggressive on lapping cars before the pit window.

 

[Mike_grpA]

First off, I've already mentioned in prior races that Kimi is a step behind Vettel and Hamilton, maybe even Bottas. At any other track, Kimi wouldn't even be in the picture.

However, he did win the pole at the hardest place to overtake and he held onto 1st past the first corner up to the pit stop. At Monaco, the winner is the one that stays ahead, regardless of pace. It may not be right but until F1 goes elsewhere, that's how it goes. As the leader, Kimi should've been given the preferential treatment for pit strategy. It just so happened that unlike most places, coming in first ended up being the less desirable option. I don't believe that was the intention, though, since Mercedes brought in Bottas around the same time. They might've thought they could undercut Vettel but it backfired by having Ricciardo beat them with the overcut.

Kimi's upset because even he knows that Monaco was his best and likely only shot of nabbing a win this season, maybe even for his career. He did everything right on his end by earning the pole and holding the lead but couldn't control when he came in to pit.

Kimi was on the preferential strategy. RBR tried to undercut Bottas, and Mercedes obviously thought it'd work, since they pitted Bottas to cover Verstappen. Ferrari pitted Kimi as soon as Kimi started asking when he was pitting. The reason they pitted him was because before Verstappen and Bottas pitted, they were 8 tenths per lap faster than Kimi. Kimi was struggling badly with his old tyres, and it looked like an undercut was very possible, especially considering how close those two were to Seb and Kimi when they pitted.

Seb, from being stuck in Kimi's wake, had to watch his almost 5 second gap to Bottas get wiped out to under 2 seconds by the time those guys stopped. Ferrari needed to bring Kimi in, since he was struggling on his old tyres, and as soon as they brought him in, they would have been closely watching Seb's sector times to see if they needed to bring him in the next lap. Seb's pace was surprising to everyone, as was Dan's, so both teams kept them out for a couple of laps, as they had the pace to deserve a chance to use it. Both drivers used the pace they had in their pockets to full effect, and they both overcut their team mates.

Obviously this wasn't intentional, and Ferrari have shown in the past, many times, that they're not afraid of using team orders when they feel they are necessary. If they were to use team orders, and who knows, they might have later in the race, but they wouldn't have been trying to hide them, they would have done what they've done in the past, and simply told Kimi to let Seb past.

In the end they didn't need to, but they certainly didn't overcut Kimi on purpose. Kimi's problem is he not only struggles for pace during the race, but he also has massive problems with following and passing other cars, even lapped cars that he should be multiple seconds per lap faster than. We saw the difference between Seb and Kimi in China, where Kimi was stuck behind Dan all race long, and Seb got stuck behind Kimi for a handful of laps, but then got past Kimi with an excellent overtake, and a couple of laps later he was right past Dan too. Once past, he put over 40 seconds between himself and Kimi. That's a scary pace difference, as well as difference between confidence and ability in getting close and passing others.

If I was on the Ferrari pit wall, I would have told Kimi to get out of Seb's way after about 10 laps, because by then it was obvious how much Kimi was holding Seb up. I think Ferrari were more than fair to Kimi in Monaco.

Kimi lost his race when he wasted too much time lapping a McLaren and a Sauber. Bottas gained something like 5 seconds and was too close to Seb. Ferrari was forced to pit one car to prevent Bottas + Verstappen undercut on Kimi and Sebastian. Not to mention that a safety car in the pit window could have been potentially disastrous for booth of them. IMO they take a big risk with Seb but he was fast enough to 'overcut' Kimi. Pitwall guys had to make fast decisions and Kimi should have been way more aggressive on lapping cars before the pit window.

+1

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

It's funny how some people (not just here) argue the race weekend. When something like Kimi getting pole on Saturday happens, many gear up for a Kimi win the next day and it goes one of two ways. The obvious is that people are joyous because it's different and that's what gets them excited about F1 are those chance that you see that status quo shaken. Then there is the other side of it that actually happened, and he doesn't win and somehow conspiracy comes about because what people wanted to see didn't unfold, and now they need justification as to why, rather than using logic/rational. Neither way is that of someone with an objective scope or enjoyment of the series.

It's the same reason people jump for joy when they see Mercedes not on the front row, because they're tired of them winning. Or when they're happy to see Seb win but not too much cause they don't want a return of his dominance any more than that of Lewis.

Many people want to see variation so often that they become quite tunnel visioned when it doesn't happen the way they want, I find it funny, strange and curious as to why some of them are even able to muster watching a season in the first place.

 

[Mike_grpA]

It's funny how some people (not just here) argue the race weekend. When something like Kimi getting pole on Saturday happens, many gear up for a Kimi win the next day and it goes one of two ways. The obvious is that people are joyous because it's different and that's what gets the excited about F1 those chance that you see that status quo shaken. Then there is the other side of it that actually happened, and he doesn't win and somehow conspiracy comes about because what people wanted to see didn't unfold, and now they need justification as to why, rather than using logic/rational. Neither way is that of someone with an objective scope or enjoyment of the series.

It's the same reason people jump for joy when they see Mercedes not on the front row, because they're tired of them winning. Or when they're happy to see Seb win but not too much cause they don't want a return of his dominance any more than that of Lewis.

Many people want to see variation so often that they become quite tunnel visioned when it doesn't happen the way they want, I find it funny, strange and curious as to why some of them are even able to muster watching a season in the first place.

Yeah exactly. I think these type of fans are the "casual" fans that F1 has been so desperate to appeal to in recent years. The problem with trying to appeal to these type of fans, is that they are used to watching other forms of motorsport, many of which run spec cars, and these fans are used to seeing the drivers being a major differentiating factor. They watch some F1 races, and they'll be the first to complain about one team dominating, or a lack of overtaking, or the very political nature of F1.

I grew up watching F1, as well as Group A motorsport in the '90s, so I know what to expect from series' that allow different manufacturers to build their own cars. That's why I follow teams in F1, not the drivers. I'm a Ferrari fan, always have been, so in any given race I'll be hoping for the leading Ferrari in the championship (so currently Vettel) to win. Failing that, I'll want the other Ferrari to win, and failing that, I'll be hoping for my favourite drivers to do well.

I was pretty happy with the Monaco result (despite the race itself being really dull), because the lead Ferrari won, with the second Ferrari finishing second, and my favourite driver, Dan Ricciardo, finishing third.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Yeah exactly. I think these type of fans are the "casual" fans that F1 has been so desperate to appeal to in recent years. The problem with trying to appeal to these type of fans, is that they are used to watching other forms of motorsport, many of which run spec cars, and these fans are used to seeing the drivers being a major differentiating factor. They watch some F1 races, and they'll be the first to complain about one team dominating, or a lack of overtaking, or the very political nature of F1.

I grew up watching F1, as well as Group A motorsport in the '90s, so I know what to expect from series' that allow different manufacturers to build their own cars. That's why I follow teams in F1, not the drivers. I'm a Ferrari fan, always have been, so in any given race I'll be hoping for the leading Ferrari in the championship (so currently Vettel) to win. Failing that, I'll want the other Ferrari to win, and failing that, I'll be hoping for my favourite drivers to do well.

I was pretty happy with the Monaco result (despite the race itself being really dull), because the lead Ferrari won, with the second Ferrari finishing second, and my favourite driver, Dan Ricciardo, finishing third.

I don't know from my experience here alone, and how long I've seen some of those commentating irritation or ire about a GP, would indicate they're long time fans. Not all obviously but a mixture of casual with frequent, and yet the same ability to be drawn in by a story that helps them cope with a GP they didn't like.

I mean I wasn't happy with the results, because I'm a Hamilton fan, but I accepted them. Because unlike those angry about Kimi's "win being taken from him", Hamilton and by extension Mercedes only have themselves to blame for the result.

Was happy Danny got a podium again.

 

[Mike_grpA]

I don't know from my experience here alone, and how long I've seen some of those commentating irritation or ire about a GP, would indicate they're long time fans. Not all obviously but a mixture of casual with frequent, and yet the same ability to be drawn in by a story that helps them cope with a GP they didn't like.

I mean I wasn't happy with the results, because I'm a Hamilton fan, but I accepted them. Because unlike those angry about Kimi's "win being taken from him", Hamilton and by extension Mercedes only have themselves to blame for the result.

Was happy Danny got a podium again.

Yeah fair enough. I wasn't really talking about here, as the discussion seems pretty informed and logical here mostly. I was more talking about elsewhere, like F1 Facebook groups and such, where the casual "fans" seem to be constantly whining. If it's not one thing it's another with those types. Being a Ferrari fan, it's been a tough few years, but I never carried on, blaming others or accusing others of cheating and such. I was always the first to blame Ferrari when they stuffed up, which was pretty frequently in recent years, most notably 2014 and 2016.

Edit: It's also nice meeting a decent, logical, and informed Hamilton fan. With his recent success, he's had a ton of morons jumping on his bandwagon, and it's those type of people who are giving his real and long-term fans a bad name lately.

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

Kimi was on the preferential strategy. RBR tried to undercut Bottas, and Mercedes obviously thought it'd work, since they pitted Bottas to cover Verstappen. Ferrari pitted Kimi as soon as Kimi started asking when he was pitting. The reason they pitted him was because before Verstappen and Bottas pitted, they were 8 tenths per lap faster than Kimi. Kimi was struggling badly with his old tyres, and it looked like an undercut was very possible, especially considering how close those two were to Seb and Kimi when they pitted.

Seb, from being stuck in Kimi's wake, had to watch his almost 5 second gap to Bottas get wiped out to under 2 seconds by the time those guys stopped. Ferrari needed to bring Kimi in, since he was struggling on his old tyres, and as soon as they brought him in, they would have been closely watching Seb's sector times to see if they needed to bring him in the next lap. Seb's pace was surprising to everyone, as was Dan's, so both teams kept them out for a couple of laps, as they had the pace to deserve a chance to use it. Both drivers used the pace they had in their pockets to full effect, and they both overcut their team mates.

Obviously this wasn't intentional, and Ferrari have shown in the past, many times, that they're not afraid of using team orders when they feel they are necessary. If they were to use team orders, and who knows, they might have later in the race, but they wouldn't have been trying to hide them, they would have done what they've done in the past, and simply told Kimi to let Seb past.

In the end they didn't need to, but they certainly didn't overcut Kimi on purpose. Kimi's problem is he not only struggles for pace during the race, but he also has massive problems with following and passing other cars, even lapped cars that he should be multiple seconds per lap faster than. We saw the difference between Seb and Kimi in China, where Kimi was stuck behind Dan all race long, and Seb got stuck behind Kimi for a handful of laps, but then got past Kimi with an excellent overtake, and a couple of laps later he was right past Dan too. Once past, he put over 40 seconds between himself and Kimi. That's a scary pace difference, as well as difference between confidence and ability in getting close and passing others.

Again, I didn't see Ferrari trying to deliberately sabotage Kimi with their pit strategy. However, from Kimi's perspective, they made the incorrect call and they allowed Vettel to take advantage of that strategical error rather than correct it. Obviously, Ferrari wasn't going to do that for him but I doubt that reality would make him feel any better.

I'm not so much arguing the points but trying to grasp Kimi's mindset since it was surprising to me how visibly upset he looked post-race.

If I was on the Ferrari pit wall, I would have told Kimi to get out of Seb's way after about 10 laps, because by then it was obvious how much Kimi was holding Seb up. I think Ferrari were more than fair to Kimi in Monaco.

I'd bet money he would've disobeyed any team order to let Vettel by with a signature line over the radio. Given his age and that his contract expires this season, I think he's at a point in which he'd do anything for one last win, even at Vettel's expense. Selfish, yes, but I would've loved to seen it unfold.

 

[Mike_grpA]

Again, I didn't see Ferrari trying to deliberately sabotage Kimi with their pit strategy. However, from Kimi's perspective, they made the incorrect call and they allowed Vettel to take advantage of that strategical error rather than correct it. Obviously, Ferrari wasn't going to do that for him but I doubt that reality would make him feel any better.

The thing is, it was the correct call. If they left Kimi out, he would have been undercut by the faster cars behind him, and likely not even made the podium. If you're saying that Ferrari should have pitted Seb immediately after Kimi, that would have been utterly stupid. As soon as Seb showed the pace he had, it was obvious Kimi had badly held him up for half the race. If Ferrari then called him in the lap after Kimi, knowing the sector times he put in as soon as he was in clear air, they would have been knowingly sabotaging Seb's race, and for what? To gift a win to Kimi? A win he certainly didn't deserve. Why would they knowingly sabotage their best driver? In any case, if Ferrari called Seb in while he was putting in his fastest sectors of the race, he would have overridden the call, as he's done in the past when he's felt there's a better strategy option, and he still would have overcut Kimi. But if they did that, then it would have been them basically ordering Seb to not fight Kimi for the win. Would people be up in arms about Ferrari issuing team orders to gift Kimi a win? I doubt it. Basically, the only people pissed off about this are Kimi fans who refuse to accept reality, and Hamilton fans who are upset that Seb was able to extend his lead by 19 points in one race.

I'm not so much arguing the points but trying to grasp Kimi's mindset since it was surprising to me how visibly upset he looked post-race.I'd bet money he would've disobeyed any team order to let Vettel by with a signature line over the radio. Given his age and that his contract expires this season, I think he's at a point in which he'd do anything for one last win, even at Vettel's expense. Selfish, yes, but I would've loved to seen it unfold.

You'd lose that money then. Wanna make a bet now? Because Ferrari will definitely order Kimi to let Seb past if Kimi finds himself leading Seb in the second half of the season. I'll bet you $50 Kimi obeys the order. Why would he disobey a team order, in a season where his team mate, who is a good friend, is fighting for the title, and he isn't? Kimi wouldn't screw his friend over for one last F1 race win. Wanna take the bet?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

When something like Kimi getting pole on Saturday happens, many gear up for a Kimi win the next day and it goes one of two ways.

Räikkönen is still one of the most popular drivers in the sport, while I don't think that Vettel has ever thrown the perception that his titles were down to Red Bull's interference. If the situation were reversed, with Räikkönen profiting at Vettel's expense, I doubt that we'd be having this conversation.

 

[zed300]

The overcut was only part of it....Kimi being put out behind a couple of slower cars was enough, although
his out lap wasn't good enough either and he had clear enough air infront of him then.
When Seb came out, there was what...0.5 of a sec between them.

Racing that the fans want to see, isn't always up to the track layout.
As Mike_grpA pointed out Seb was able to pass Dan in China, but KImi wasn't. Sure, Monaco is the least likely of on track passing, but that is only one track. The importance of Qualy is higher, so that's slightly important here. Other tracks have more important aspects like tyre management, others have fuel management. All these lead to what makes up a championship.

Some places some prefer more than others, so do the fans.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Räikkönen is still one of the most popular drivers in the sport, while I don't think that Vettel has ever thrown the perception that his titles were down to Red Bull's interference. If the situation were reversed, with Räikkönen profiting at Vettel's expense, I doubt that we'd be having this conversation.

It has far more to do with just that, and more so to do with people building up a narrative based on the larger narrative given to them by journos. Which is why people were so easy to jump on this conspiracy that Ferrari had done Kimi wrong.

Vettel didn't get anything and the fact that your or anyone else wants to push that, needs to be shown more proof than what there currently is which is next to nothing.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Vettel didn't get anything and the fact that your or anyone else wants to push that, needs to be shown more proof than what there currently is which is next to nothing.

Oh, I don't think he got anything out of it. He was clearly the faster driver through the race. I'm just pointing out the relative levels of popularity and how that fuelled the conspiracy theory.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Oh, I don't think he got anything out of it. He was clearly the faster driver through the race. I'm just pointing out the relative levels of popularity and how that fuelled the conspiracy theory.

Which is fine, but my post is to undermine that reasoning as well.

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

The thing is, it was the correct call. If they left Kimi out, he would have been undercut by the faster cars behind him, and likely not even made the podium. If you're saying that Ferrari should have pitted Seb immediately after Kimi, that would have been utterly stupid. As soon as Seb showed the pace he had, it was obvious Kimi had badly held him up for half the race. If Ferrari then called him in the lap after Kimi, knowing the sector times he put in as soon as he was in clear air, they would have been knowingly sabotaging Seb's race, and for what? To gift a win to Kimi? A win he certainly didn't deserve. Why would they knowingly sabotage their best driver? In any case, if Ferrari called Seb in while he was putting in his fastest sectors of the race, he would have overridden the call, as he's done in the past when he's felt there's a better strategy option, and he still would have overcut Kimi. But if they did that, then it would have been them basically ordering Seb to not fight Kimi for the win. Would people be up in arms about Ferrari issuing team orders to gift Kimi a win? I doubt it. Basically, the only people pissed off about this are Kimi fans who refuse to accept reality, and Hamilton fans who are upset that Seb was able to extend his lead by 19 points in one race.

Can't say I'm upset. More like sympathy for a driver that I've criticised in the past for declining performance.

You'd lose that money then. Wanna make a bet now? Because Ferrari will definitely order Kimi to let Seb past if Kimi finds himself leading Seb in the second half of the season. I'll bet you $50 Kimi obeys the order. Why would he disobey a team order, in a season where his team mate, who is a good friend, is fighting for the title, and he isn't? Kimi wouldn't screw his friend over for one last F1 race win. Wanna take the bet?

Kimi would need to be on pole at a track that is all but impossible to overtake and hold onto it at the start. That said, I'm not one to underestimate how selfish a driver can be.

 

[Betty blue]

Unbelievable!! People will still talk the same had Ferrari pitted Seb first and then he undercutted Kimi "which it what was probably will happen given to Kimi's pace prior to his pit"

 

[Mike_grpA]

Can't say I'm upset. More like sympathy for a driver that I've criticised in the past for declining performance.

Didn't say you were mate, I said the people who are upset about Seb winning the race are mostly upset Ham fans and delusional Kimi fans. There are obviously a ton of Kimi fans who aren't crying conspiracy, and a lot of Ham fans who are more philosophical about Ham's bad weekend (all drivers have them). I was just pointing out that this conspiracy theory is largely being pushed by those groups who would rather blame some conspiracy than accept the quite honestly very straightforward facts about the race.

Kimi would need to be on pole at a track that is all but impossible to overtake and hold onto it at the start. That said, I'm not one to underestimate how selfish a driver can be.

What you just described is exactly what happened last weekend. Kimi got pole at the most difficult circuit to overtake on. He also held onto that lead at the start. What he didn't do, was put some breathing room between himself and Seb, and he also didn't have a good enough pace during the race either, and that's why he ended up losing it.

Kimi's not an idiot, he knows he has no chance of winning the title, so what would he stand to gain by ignoring team orders? Sure he'd gain one race win to add to his collection, but at what cost? He'd be alienating himself within the team, and showing the team who took him to his only world title, and who pays him $10m a year, that he's no longer a team player, and will sacrifice what is best for the team to get a win for himself. That would piss the team off significantly, as I guarantee there would be a clause in his contract that he has to obey any and all team orders, and so in ignoring them he'd likely get fired. He'd also do a lot of damage to his friendship with Seb, especially if his ignoring of team orders led to Seb and Ferrari missing out on the WDC.

As I said: Kimi's not stupid. Furthermore, he stated during 2015 that he had no problem with team orders, and would do the job for the team if they needed to move him aside for Seb. Considering how much better Seb is doing than Kimi this year, Kimi would already know he's got no chance at going for the WDC, so I can't see him suddenly deciding he's not ok with team orders.

From the article: "Everybody knows what the rules are and this is a normal thing," Raikkonen said. "Obviously I'm not in the championship fight so if it comes to that it's fine. It's a normal thing. I try to make the maximum for the team. That's not an issue."

http://www.espn.com.au/f1/story/_/i...i-team-orders-help-sebastian-vettel-not-issue

Still wanna take that bet?

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

Didn't say you were mate, I said the people who are upset about Seb winning the race are mostly upset Ham fans and delusional Kimi fans. There are obviously a ton of Kimi fans who aren't crying conspiracy, and a lot of Ham fans who are more philosophical about Ham's bad weekend (all drivers have them). I was just pointing out that this conspiracy theory is largely being pushed by those groups who would rather blame some conspiracy than accept the quite honestly very straightforward facts about the race.

As a Hamilton fan myself, I obviously would've rather seen Vettel finish 2nd but I was a little disappointed Mercedes didn't go with some off the wall strategy like starting on the supersofts and then go with the ultras as early as possible to have him run on clean air. 7th was a good result considering the circumstances so I can move on from it.

For those Kimi fans, well, I think a lot of them are aware that he's never going to win again based on race pace. Monaco gave them hope but then it went away after that pit stop. Then again, what happened in Monaco could light a fire under Kimi and he'll have a magical weekend where he actually has the pace and the luck.

What you just described is exactly what happened last weekend. Kimi got pole at the most difficult circuit to overtake on. He also held onto that lead at the start. What he didn't do, was put some breathing room between himself and Seb, and he also didn't have a good enough pace during the race either, and that's why he ended up losing it.

Kimi's not an idiot, he knows he has no chance of winning the title, so what would he stand to gain by ignoring team orders? Sure he'd gain one race win to add to his collection, but at what cost? He'd be alienating himself within the team, and showing the team who took him to his only world title, and who pays him $10m a year, that he's no longer a team player, and will sacrifice what is best for the team to get a win for himself. That would piss the team off significantly, as I guarantee there would be a clause in his contract that he has to obey any and all team orders, and so in ignoring them he'd likely get fired. He'd also do a lot of damage to his friendship with Seb, especially if his ignoring of team orders led to Seb and Ferrari missing out on the WDC.

As I said: Kimi's not stupid. Furthermore, he stated during 2015 that he had no problem with team orders, and would do the job for the team if they needed to move him aside for Seb. Considering how much better Seb is doing than Kimi this year, Kimi would already know he's got no chance at going for the WDC, so I can't see him suddenly deciding he's not ok with team orders.

From the article: "Everybody knows what the rules are and this is a normal thing," Raikkonen said. "Obviously I'm not in the championship fight so if it comes to that it's fine. It's a normal thing. I try to make the maximum for the team. That's not an issue."

http://www.espn.com.au/f1/story/_/i...i-team-orders-help-sebastian-vettel-not-issue

Still wanna take that bet?

It's not like he's going to say otherwise to the media. Now, he might've been truthful back then but Monaco is one of the crown jewels of F1, like how the Indy 500 is a prestigious event for open wheel racing in the States. Yes, the consequences of disobedience are there but Kimi is in that position where he could make that decision anyways. Asking to move over is basically telling Kimi that all his years of loyalty doesn't matter so why should be play loyal soldier? Money and job security? I don't know his finances but I think he could survive with what he has and he knows he's up in age. That last race of one's career being a win at Monaco rather than a forgettable finish at some other track sounds pretty good. Friendship? That doesn't mean much on the track. If anything, those friendships can collapse under the weight of competition anyways. Who knows if that friendship may have taken a hit in the short term anyways.

I don't think the mods would want us to bet anyways. Besides, the only way anyone could collect is if someone had a time machine lying around so we could alter the strategy. Then again, I'd rather use the machine to make sure Alonso engine wouldn't blow up during the Indy 500.

One last point about Monaco. Sounds a bit out there but the only idea I could come up with to make Monaco more competitive is force the teams to make two stops and to use all three available compounds. It may require creating a hypersoft tire or something but any other solutions I have are unrealistic or too expensive. I've dabbled with the concept of making Monaco an All-Star nonpoints event with unique events but something tells me the diehards would never buy into it.

 

[Mike_grpA]

It's not like he's going to say otherwise to the media. Now, he might've been truthful back then but Monaco is one of the crown jewels of F1, like how the Indy 500 is a prestigious event for open wheel racing in the States. Yes, the consequences of disobedience are there but Kimi is in that position where he could make that decision anyways. Asking to move over is basically telling Kimi that all his years of loyalty doesn't matter so why should be play loyal soldier? Money and job security? I don't know his finances but I think he could survive with what he has and he knows he's up in age. That last race of one's career being a win at Monaco rather than a forgettable finish at some other track sounds pretty good. Friendship? That doesn't mean much on the track. If anything, those friendships can collapse under the weight of competition anyways. Who knows if that friendship may have taken a hit in the short term anyways.

Telling him his loyalty doesn't matter? Some would argue that Kimi hasn't had the pace to deserve his enormous paycheck and seat in the most prestigious race team in the world since his comeback in 2014, and yet they have kept him on because he's still a very good development driver, and great friends with their number one driver. He knows his place in the team, make no mistake. If we were talking about Alonso, then for sure, he thinks he's bigger than any team, but Kimi would understand his place perfectly.

As for their friendship taking a hit after Monaco: This photo was taken yesterday at the Partita del Cuore charity football match. I don't know about you, but I'm not sensing any tension or hatred in this one. There are other photos of the two joking during the match too if you look.

I don't think the mods would want us to bet anyways. Besides, the only way anyone could collect is if someone had a time machine lying around so we could alter the strategy. Then again, I'd rather use the machine to make sure Alonso engine wouldn't blow up during the Indy 500.

The bet I proposed had nothing to do with Monaco, how can you bet on something that's already happened? I offered a $50 bet that if and when Ferrari issued team orders to Kimi later in the season, he would obey. The offer stands.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I offered a $50 bet that if and when Ferrari issued team orders to Kimi later in the season, he would obey. The offer stands.

AUP aside it would be silly to take a bet on something Kimi has already said he'd do.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

AUP aside it would be silly to take a bet on something Kimi has already said he'd do.

Back when F1 Rejects was alive and well, forum members used to take bets all the time. But rather than having money riding on it, it was an avatar. If you lost a bet, you had to carry an unflattering avatar for the rest of the year.

 

[Mike_grpA]

Back when F1 Rejects was alive and well, forum members used to take bets all the time. But rather than having money riding on it, it was an avatar. If you lost a bet, you had to carry an unflattering avatar for the rest of the year.

That's a good idea actually

 

[prisonermonkeys]

That's a good idea actually

I remember winning one in 2010. I bet that Vitaly Petrov would "un-Rejectify" himself - to get a particular set of results, thus lifting himself out of the site's hall of infamy - before Nico Hülkenberg. The guy who bet on Hülkenberg doing it before Petrov had to carry an avatar reading I BELIEVE IN USF1.

 

[tankuroded]

I remember winning one in 2010. I bet that Vitaly Petrov would "un-Rejectify" himself - to get a particular set of results, thus lifting himself out of the site's hall of infamy - before Nico Hülkenberg. The guy who bet on Hülkenberg doing it before Petrov had to carry an avatar reading I BELIEVE IN USF1.

Hey, GP Rejects is (still) a thing, by the way. Some people there missed you there. (Same old people on F1 Rejects too.)