GT6 "80% finished", GT7 expected in "a year or two" + other info

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Heh. Me being mad? At least I wasn't the one who frustratedly said PD will flop, now that's being mad. :sly:

As it currently stands, now they will not flop. However, if they were an independent developer (No backing by any publisher whatsoever) then they would flop. Nobody will pay for an unfinished game, people will lose interest in a game after x amount of years in development. That is unless you have a massive following behind your product like GT does.

They should look at other developers as example. For instance, Bungie. They have around a three year dev cycle. Their team consists of a massive 300+ members, yet the team is so close knit that they are practically a family, anyone who has seen their vidocs would know. No outsourcing, pure manpower. That is what PD needs, they can keep the uniqueness while doubling the amount of people working on the game.

Then spend some of that lovely green on better equipment like Laser Scanning. This can dramatically cut down on dev time for modeling cars and tracks. This will help them focus on things like sounds, livery editors, stuff like that. They also need better planning and better marketing.
 
As it currently stands, now they will not flop. However, if they were an independent developer (No backing by any publisher whatsoever) then they would flop. Nobody will pay for an unfinished game, people will lose interest in a game after x amount of years in development. That is unless you have a massive following behind your product like GT does.

They should look at other developers as example. For instance, Bungie. They have around a three year dev cycle. Their team consists of a massive 300+ members, yet the team is so close knit that they are practically a family, anyone who has seen their vidocs would know. No outsourcing, pure manpower. That is what PD needs, they can keep the uniqueness while doubling the amount of people working on the game.

Then spend some of that lovely green on better equipment like Laser Scanning. This can dramatically cut down on dev time for modeling cars and tracks. This will help them focus on things like sounds, livery editors, stuff like that. They also need better planning and better marketing.

👍👍
 
As it currently stands, now they will not flop. However, if they were an independent developer (No backing by any publisher whatsoever) then they would flop. Nobody will pay for an unfinished game, people will lose interest in a game after x amount of years in development. That is unless you have a massive following behind your product like GT does.

They should look at other developers as example. For instance, Bungie. They have around a three year dev cycle. Their team consists of a massive 300+ members, yet the team is so close knit that they are practically a family, anyone who has seen their vidocs would know. No outsourcing, pure manpower. That is what PD needs, they can keep the uniqueness while doubling the amount of people working on the game.

Then spend some of that lovely green on better equipment like Laser Scanning. This can dramatically cut down on dev time for modeling cars and tracks. This will help them focus on things like sounds, livery editors, stuff like that. They also need better planning and better marketing.

But why to change, people from GT 1 are still working in PD, and still use paper and scissors (specially for the sound), sales can not lie !
 
But why to change, people from GT 1 are still working in PD, and still use paper and scissors (specially for the sound), sales can not lie !
And I bet that is what is happening. Sony doesn't think or doesn't know that things are broken since PD makes money and has small staff.
 
“Even with the cars, we still don’t outsource any of the modeling with the cars, and that’s just how we do it and I think that’s what leads to the uniqueness of the game.”

I don't understand Polyphony Digital's problem with outsourcing cars.

I do understand that outsourcing costs money, because you're effectively paying for someone else to do something for you. However, considering their development budget, I find it difficult to believe that, cost-wise, everything is so tight that it's impossible to get external assistance. Please do correct me if I'm wrong about this.

Apart from a monetary concern, I fail to see why Polyphony doesn't want anyone else modelling their cars. The people who work there are most certainly not the only ones proficient enough to model cars to the degree of quality required for the game, in fact, there are people who can go beyond that level.

Here's an example (I apologize if the pictures appear too large, I don't post images often):

Final10b.jpg


Final3b.jpg


Final6b.jpg


As you can see, this 3D artist has created an incredible model of a Ford GT40 race car, more detailed than any vehicle currently in Gran Turismo.

If Polyphony could and did outsource a few cars for this artist to recreate, would the results not leave them pleased, considering his creation above?
 
I don't understand Polyphony Digital's problem with outsourcing cars.

I do understand that outsourcing costs money, because you're effectively paying for someone else to do something for you. However, considering their development budget, I find it difficult to believe that, cost-wise, everything is so tight that it's impossible to get external assistance. Please do correct me if I'm wrong about this.

Apart from a monetary concern, I fail to see why Polyphony doesn't want anyone else modelling their cars. The people who work there are most certainly not the only ones proficient enough to model cars to the degree of quality required for the game, in fact, there are people who can go beyond that level.

Here's an example (I apologize if the pictures appear too large, I don't post images often):

Final10b.jpg


Final3b.jpg


Final6b.jpg


As you can see, this 3D artist has created an incredible model of a Ford GT40 race car, more detailed than any vehicle currently in Gran Turismo.

If Polyphony could and did outsource a few cars for this artist to recreate, would the results not leave them pleased, considering his creation above?

No offense, but I always get the feeling when people talk about the staff at PD that somehow they have unique and mysterious occupations, that are almost impossible to teach to other, newer staff. That's a lot of hogwash. They aren't reinventing the wheel there, whatever they have learned that may be unique or special, someone else can be trained to do. If they want to expand they can, they obviously don't want to, they want to remain small and family like, and you get the game that that kind of thinking produces.
 
They have some really important things to improve, outsourcing car models is one of the last things that they should worry about.
 
^ Seems to be a case of extreme NIH "Not Invented here" syndrome.

What is there to "invent", though, really? Incremental changes to the level of detail the artists work to will come with time. One day we'll get to the point that no more detail can be added, static or dynamic, but I think having a game around that detail might be worthy of some resources, too.

And that's the difference; it's nice to know that this kind of detail is a feasible task for one artist, but it's just not "necessary" right now.

EDIT: I missed the point, didn't I? :dopey:
Well, PD does work with other companies (check the credits), so I don't think they're quite so xenophobic as people assume. Do they need to outsource? What would it achieve? Quantity, or quality? ;) :P
 
I think it could achieve both quality and quantity, PD should be focusing on key game play and not so much on rendering cars. GT fans may as a side result get a ton more cars.
 
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No offense, but I always get the feeling when people talk about the staff at PD that somehow they have unique and mysterious occupations, that are almost impossible to teach to other, newer staff. That's a lot of hogwash. They aren't reinventing the wheel there, whatever they have learned that may be unique or special, someone else can be trained to do. If they want to expand they can, they obviously don't want to, they want to remain small and family like, and you get the game that that kind of thinking produces.
Sound department vs. the car and track modeling department -

The person's/employee's experience matters differently for the job they undertake. Should we expect it to be easier to "teach" an experienced 3D artist the ways of PD, or would it be easier to teach a sound engineer the processes that they used to go through and are now having to re-wire?

But I do wonder, have they really gone the last 3-4 years without hiring anyone? Last we heard (before very recently) a few years ago was that the team has 150 people. Now the number's the same?


Yet,
https://www.gtplanet.net/polyphony-digital-to-continue-expansion-in-fukuoka-japan/

https://www.gtplanet.net/polyphony-digital-now-hiring/


Confusing.


I think it could achieve both quality and quantity, PD should be focusing on key game play and not so much on rendering cars. GT fans may as a side result get a ton more cars.
You're right. Kaz did say that the casual crowd is the dominant GT5 player considering the ways they play the game. GTPlanet will be frantic once PD goes catering to the casuals only/mainly. Let's not forget that PD had sole responsibility of making certain steering wheels fully compatible to GT5 and they delivered.

Wait a minute, I think I'm a casual GT player. HURRAY!
/s, but not totally.
 
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I think it could achieve both quality and quantity, PD should be focusing on key game play and not so much on rendering cars. GT fans may as a side result get a ton more cars.

That's all very vague. What quantity of what quality? How much is "a ton"? How much is necessary?

Given that PD can effectively siphon 3D artists straight off the "production line", as and when they "need" to, I don't see why they would go to the additional expense of paying for somebody else's profit margin.
 
That's all very vague. What quantity of what quality? How much is "a ton"? How much is necessary?

Given that PD can effectively siphon 3D artists straight off the "production line", as and when they "need" to, I don't see why they would go to the additional expense of paying for somebody else's profit margin.

What production line? Do you mean Sony and there other studios?

I don't have a exact number to be honest. Car counts in GT are a tough call since alot are dupes but I would love at the minimum for all the cars seen in previous GT games to make a come back. Maybe famine could help with a number but I would guess it would be way north of 200.
 
What production line? Do you mean Sony and there other studios?

I don't have a exact number to be honest. Car counts in GT are a tough call since alot are dupes but I would love at the minimum for all the cars seen in previous GT games to make a come back. Maybe famine could help with a number but I would guess it would be way north of 200.

We know it's a minimum of about 400 (there are 200 more cars in GT6 than GT5, none of those will be not-Standards). I expect 500, but think it could be closer to 600, possibly more. But that was reckoned (extrapolated, mind you) before I knew about this "not-Standard" and "touching up" lark. I don't know how long touching up takes these days.

The "production line" is the university next to their Fukuoka office that specialises partly in 3D modeling-type stuff. I reckon there's a nice source of "interns" who could be poached when they graduate and, thanks to their social and systemic integration as interns, be extremely effective more-or-less immediately. At least, I know it works, it's just whether they are doing that.
 
Interesting thanks for the info. I hope you are right on the car count 500 or more would be awesome. I have been getting pessimistic with the car count since every successive iteration of GT has more cars but none of the ones I have wanted.
 
Yes, the "quality" approach really worked wonders for GT5 and it's looking to have been a wise choice for GT6.....

So, if they made the cars of a lesser "quality" for GT5, then they could have made more of them. So they would have "needed" to outsource less. Interesting.

Also, please share this GT6 info you're clearly harbouring. :P

EDIT: I'm not sure about this 3D modeler "source" in Fukuoka, now, either. I don't know if that's something that was pointed out by someone with local knowledge, or if I've mis-remembered Kaz's proclamation of intention to make a game development school nearby. Still, it shows they're looking at a much bigger picture than most of us!
 
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amar212
And it should stay like that, thank you Kaz 👍
PS2 cars in PS4 thanks you Kaz. Wait.I have no problem if they won't hire new staff, but they should make every car in the same quality. If PD can't do that they should hire new people.

GT6 is the last game i'll buy if PD don't stop use standard cars. They should work on sounds too.
 
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Outsource or hire more people, they need to do one of them. Just look at all these other developers talking about how much work they have to put into making a AAA game on modern consoles, magnitudes of work greater than it was in the past. This why most studios knocking out these AAA titles have big teams or outsource for the same effect.

Naughty Dog - Between 201 and 500 split across two teams.
SCE Santa Monica Studio - 200+
Guerrilla Games - 270+
Insomniac - 210
Quantic Dreams - 180
343 Industries - 340
Bioware - 800
Bungie - 350
Crytek - 800
DICE - 323
Epic - 160
Eurocom - 250
Id Software - 200+
IO Interactive - 200+
Square Enix - 3,000+
Turn 10 - Up to 400 inc outsourcing

These are the companies figures were available for on a quick google. PD are clearly lagging behind in numbers and the fact it's by choice is worrying. Surely they can work out that after GT5 was unfinished on launch and GT6 is going to be the same they need to stop being so stubborn in their ways. A 'little family' is all very nice but PD are making a huge budget AAA title here, not an indie.
 
Um, how many of those are purely development staff, and what sort of split across different projects are there?

PD is somewhere around 150, excluding Sony stuff and the small amount of outsourcing they already do.

You can't "just expand"; even Dan Greenawalt says so, and that's been T10 / MS's philosophy for their games.
 
I don't know that obviously, they're just the numbers provided online in various places. Some of them only make one series like PD, some make two or three. They're still all above PD, some by a big amount. How many of the 150 PD employees are purely development? We don't know but you can assume the percentage is pretty similar to other companies.

You can't just expand by 100 employees overnight, no, but PD have been around a lot longer than some of the others I listed. They should surely be at 200 minimum by now.

The most important point is that for the most part, those studios put out finished games. They don't keep announcing what won't make it time and time again.
 
Um, how many of those are purely development staff, and what sort of split across different projects are there?

PD is somewhere around 150, excluding Sony stuff and the small amount of outsourcing they already do.

You can't "just expand"; even Dan Greenawalt says so, and that's been T10 / MS's philosophy for their games.

Of course you can't "just expand" in any business. There needs to be some planning and foresight. This has been an issue for years, IMO, and so the planning should have been ongoing for years, with new people slowly added on. But it won't happen until sales begin to decline. Even if PCars2 and Driveclub on PS and Forza 6 on XBone come out and make GT7 look like a complete joke, nothing will change until the bottom line is affected.
 
Yeah, but what evidence is there that any or all issues with GT have been due to the number of people that work there?

PD are first party, much of the staff that other companies have to liaise and make red tape and make the tea are probably absorbed by Sony. Naughty Dog are first party, too, and they have a similarly "low" personage (when you consider the scope, turnover and "hype" of their games) when "split across two teams".
But look at id - only 200 people when they never have just one project ticking over, and they make multi-platform games? Or Epic, which not only makes games but markets, documents and supports an entire development environment (compare with Crytek; also Unity)? Madness!

Why is 200 the target number, as a "minimum"?
The real question is, why can't those developers do a proportionally better job (minimum 25%; a solid 9.25 on metacritic :P) with so many more people?
Note also that PD have been expanding; ultimately, they know best how to strengthen the productivity of their team without sacrificing efficiency (as outsourcing tends to do).

Maybe they're more concerned with long term sustainability rather than short term exploitation of resources. When you consider we've had a global financial crisis and the disaster in Japan recently, perhaps that attitude makes sense.

But yeah, I guess being honest with the public is never a good marketing move! :P
It is weird that we're being told that stuff "might not make it", but I think that's more indicative of PD's avant-garde approach to systems-oriented design in video games, something that is taking its sweet time in maturing thanks to the profit machine focusing on the CoD-likes of the various genres, rather than being due to a comparatively "small" workforce. Check out the "Indie" scene for examples of what kinds of innovation and, at times, polish very small teams can achieve. Also, this.

You only really need more people for more content (and more people to "manage" them); changing the way content is made might shift that balance in PD's favour too (I'm thinking sounds here for PD, but it's also what Epic did, and what Crytek does for smaller teams). Throwing more people at certain programming challenges might not help very much, either, as communication will be the limiting factor.

As somebody else mentioned, though, the era of "finished" games is over anyway. Given that GT6 won't be the full image of Kaz's "vision" for the series, no GT game will be "finished" until that is true. Whether the game works as one contiguous, "closed" and intra-connected piece remains to be seen. If things come later to expand that regardless, great.


I know that, going forwards, teams will have to keep growing. I don't know whether that's linearly beneficial for the "product", or sustainable for the industry in the long run, and that's maybe not important right now. What I'm arguing against is this idea that we somehow know better than PD do in how to manage that requirement in their own team for their own projects, and just how comparable other teams and other projects are.
 
Why do we keep treating PD as if they were top ****? In my eyes, they're taking horrible decisions, Kaz doesn't know what his main focus should be or what he should be aiming for. PD employees are obviously not very talented and that shows. And on top of all, their pride, self worshipness and arrogance isn't really helping to get things done.

The only thing that they have is the brand "Gran Turismo", take that name away from them and they would quickly disappear.
 
Why do we keep treating PD as if they were top ****? In my eyes, they're taking horrible decisions, Kaz doesn't know what his main focus should be or what he should be aiming for. PD employees are obviously not very talented and that shows. And on top of all, their pride, self worshipness and arrogance isn't really helping to get things done.

The only thing that they have is the brand "Gran Turismo", take that name away from them and they would quickly disappear.

Well my view is,if GT6 fails to please the majority(of GTP members at least) then Kaz needs to re-think being a game dev.
Otherwise like you say all PD has is a brand name.
 
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