Israel - Palestine discussion thread

You're not explaining what I said at all, I'm saying perhaps we are doing it to just alleviate answering question about our support overall of Israel which has been a great subject of debate since Obama came into office. Or the way I explained it, no where do I say this nation's gov't cares about double standards.
No no, I was explaining why Mule said what he said. He, as well I did, has seen the US not caring about double standards before.


Also you'd know I wasn't defending any Gov't decisions my nation makes if you simply read the MH17 thread.
Well then...
Also what do you mean how we treat your country? Is it hard for the host to be the home of the 5th fleet?
...You'd better start saying "I" instead of "we" ;)

And no it has nothing to do with the fleet. They're welcome here, as long as they don't interfere with internal affairs (which they have been).
 
No no, I was explaining why Mule said what he said. He, as well I did, has seen the US not caring about double standards before.

I know what he said, but he isn't right. Only about believing we're so upright and forthcoming that we'd (U.S. Government and their representation of the people/me as they are), would care about looking like hypocrites on the Foreign policy front or any front for that matter. However, he didn't say anything about that so at this point you're speaking from him in that regard alone.

His concern seems to stem more from the idea that we're a bigger chess piece (say the Queen) in this Zionist West Asia affair, and have no back bone to break away.

...You'd better start saying "I" instead of "we" ;)

And no it has nothing to do with the fleet. They're welcome here, as long as they don't interfere with internal affairs (which they have been).

You really have a knack for not making sense yet thinking you do and then thinking further that you're clever about it ;)

Anyways would I state I? You said "your government" as if I'm part of its collective since I live in this nation so obviously using we should make sense...well to most people I should say.
 
So to be a contributing member I have to post videos about a topic that has gone on for decades and is well documented beyond this cycle of the conflict? That's just ignorant to think that is the sole way people contribute. Also I've read the entire thread and I'm contributing by asking and learning and then using that to what I've already learned. If you rather be blind and act I haven't done anything that's fine but just further escalates the sheer ignorance you want to use and validates @Danoff on the concept of you basically having your fingers in your ears.


If you've read my post you'd see I have spoken to Israeli's that clearly don't agree with their Gov'ts foreign and domestic policies. You showing you're one sided and obvious backing doesn't tell me anything other than what you wish for me to believe. It's not objective in any measure. Is it sad that innocent people are dying on either side yes, but clearly you'd have seen me say this if you actually understood what anyone says beyond your myopic view.


Did you get this from a fortune cookie?


Actually I did read the thread so this time I'll ask you to refrain from posting material that you know quite well isn't true. As AUP dictates. Unless you have some remote viewing of my PC I can assure you've I have read the entire thread since it opened.


Hey it's your choice, if you can't grasp the fact that Israel has the right to attack back and the fact that Hamas is putting weapons in areas that would get innocents killed so people like you can spew this stuff, then you should stop and ask who really is blind. Since most of us seem to understand what's going on and have voiced how we think it should go instead of how it is going.


You're that guy that will point me the AUP if I post a MEME of a GIF. On the other hand you're claim you super educated and polite while you're making things up about what I say. I won't reply to you anymore.

________________________________________

I took the time to check your posts in this thread. Let's check and compare them until the moment you've accused me of not contributing to the thread and and also claim you're asking all those qusetions and contributing to the discussion in an educated manner.

All your posts until your personal accusations yesterday:

17 July: As the others said the U.S. will always be in by default.

22 July: Why?

22 July: (about the word "atrocious")
Yeah that still doesn't explain a ton to me other than you saying that perhaps a War Crimes hearing should be set up against a Nation that was ironically allowed to a certain group of people due to war crimes against them. I'm simply trying to learn more here, and you seem to not be interested in divulging. I just wanted to get more insight from you like I do others so I can learn what's going on.

Yeah that was a bad choice of rhetoric there...


22 July: (still about the word "atrocious")
Basically all I was trying to understand, I thought also you had more info as to what the UN was going to do than what was shown so I wanted to ask since unlike some I'm actually genuinely interested in this affair.

22 July:
I'm sure as far as all that goes most people are aware, of those steps and it's continuous cycle. However, some times things can change from each major incident so people want to see if such happens and would like to be educated on the matter just in case. Surely you can understand that.

23 July: That's usually his case.

24 July (Yesterday):
@ zzz_pt you really are too engrossed with what you say to even be a valuable person to discuss/argue/debate with on any threads in the current events forum. You rely far too much on knee jerk reactions rather than realistic view points and facts to be honest. The only time I see you happy is when the masses that agree for their own reasoning on the religion threads happen to side with you. Though they choose atheism or being agnostic for far different reason from what I see than you.

If you haven't noticed which is usually your issue, I've actually asked for more info and am quite educated on the Israeli-Palestinian relations it's not that hard to figure out, however since this is a more newer transgression I'm actually asking questions in here to be educated. I don't just sit on my laurels and say "yeah the plight of the Palestinians is vastly obvious here and the Jews have no right! Don't say any more cause it is obvious guys".

So my eyes are quite open, but once again it is this double standard you play at where you get to point your finger and not divulge anything further and can't possibly see how your rose tinted view is skewed. Bravo for actually contributing in an intellectual manner (since you didn't) to this thread, you've made everyone that much more knowledgeable with your skewed vision.

Israel like any sovereign nation has all the right in the world to strike back when attacked, those of Hamas gave up their right to live by attacking in the name of what ever God they think gives a damn. Israel however should have practiced more precision than sweeping death. Furthermore to be fair just like Hezbollah and Al Qaeda, Hamas is known to go to extremes to make sure their vision is achieved and if that means using children, women, elderly, or even pets as pawns in the chess match they will and have. So if you think this is a genocidal targeting of those groups by Israel you may want to educate yourself beyond the hipster trends that pop up during these moments. There is more to the story than social media has shown as they are also one sided.

Edit: Also where is your sense of justice for Israel when Palestine tries to kill innocents (more so fringe groups not all of Palestine) in Israel? What is this double standard I mean do enough turtle neck sweater wearing types get together waving a flag for this cause or another cause it's cool and you just jump on it like they do?

I mean it's the same silly attitude people had with Kony 2012 and look how that went.

Just because Hamas isn't as advance and precise or the Palestinians that side with them, they get a free pass?

_________________________________________________

Now I'll post ONLY the info I've posted. I'll not even include my oppinions or posts discussing the subjetc.

13 July: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...siles-strike-palestinian-targets-9602704.html

18 July: http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/16/371556/israel-must-kill-all-palestinian-mothers/

20 July: https://secure.avaaz.org/en/israel_palestine_this_is_how_it_ends_loc/?siEKHcb

21 July: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...g-flechette-rounds-in-gaza-strip-9617480.html

22 July: http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014...-tunnels-that-bring-life-and-death-into-gaza/

22 July: youtube.com/watch?v=iqL048x4msM&app=desktop

22 July: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/18/israeli-soldier-posts-instagram-palestinian

22 July: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html

22 July: youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ

23 July: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Supreme_Court_opinions_on_the_West_Bank_Barrier

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/23/372402/id-fire-rockets-at-israel-british-mp/

23 July: http://www.globalresearch.ca/intern...raeli-crimes-against-humanity-in-gaza/5392784

24 July: http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=14898&LangID=E

24 July: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/20/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620


____________


I rest my case.


ps: I'm sorry for this unorthodox way of dealing with a response but I had to do it. I hate when people want to turn the truth upside down.

And hey, maybe this summary of the links I've posted in the past days can help somebody find something new about the topic.
 
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Anyways would I state I? You said "your government" as if I'm part of its collective since I live in this nation so obviously using we should make sense...well to most people I should say.
If I thought you were a part of its collective I'd say "You" not "your government". If you don't agree with everything the government does, don't say group yourself with them and say "We" just because live in the same nation. Just a friendly advice.
 
@zzz_pt what exactly did I make up again? You claimed I haven't read the thread at all, how would you know that? Unlike you I gave no inclination of this or rope to hang myself with. You however said in your own words that I haven't contributed to the thread at all. However, if you did read you would see that wasn't so. Thus it is within my right to say that it is safe to say beyond what I tagged you in, you yourself didn't read the thread to see how much I've said outside of what was directed to you. This doesn't mean you didn't read the thread at all, but probably skipped portions, if the conclusion you came to was me not adding to the thread or contributing.


Now you'd rather just side step it all instead and claim some moral high ground, and that I'm just goading you.
If I thought you were a part of its collective I'd say "You" not "your government". If you don't agree with everything the government does, don't say group yourself with them and say "We" just because live in the same nation. Just a friendly advice.

Just friendly advice? Sure. That's not how it works Gov't in an international effort is an extension of the people's voice and representation, even if I don't agree or vote against that policy they're still the Gov't of the United States people. I'm not some rouge that doesn't pay Federal tax or adhere to Federal laws, or some alien resident that is just here on visa while some other Gov't represents my voice in the political spectrum.

IT goes beyond just living here, since there is multiple criteria for that alone. I can still be against policy yet give my fair share to them and being represented by them. I mean if I find myself in a foreign nation and need the U.S. embassy should I not go to it because I disagree with some of the national policy and my Gov't isn't a representation of me all of a sudden?

Also many people refer to the Gov't of their respective nation as there own that doesn't mean anything other than informing you of who their representatives are.
 
@zzz_pt what exactly did I make up again? You claimed I haven't read the thread at all, how would you know that? Unlike you I gave no inclination of this or rope to hang myself with. You however said in your own words that I haven't contributed to the thread at all. However, if you did read you would see that wasn't so. Thus it is within my right to say that it is safe to say beyond what I tagged you in, you yourself didn't read the thread to see how much I've said outside of what was directed to you. This doesn't mean you didn't read the thread at all, but probably skipped portions, if the conclusion you came to was me not adding to the thread or contributing.


Now you'd rather just side step it all instead and claim some moral high ground, and that I'm just goading you.


Just friendly advice? Sure. That's not how it works Gov't in an international effort is an extension of the people's voice and representation, even if I don't agree or vote against that policy they're still the Gov't of the United States people. I'm not some rouge that doesn't pay Federal tax or adhere to Federal laws, or some alien resident that is just here on visa while some other Gov't represents my voice in the political spectrum.

IT goes beyond just living here, since there is multiple criteria for that alone. I can still be against policy yet give my fair share to them and being represented by them. I mean if I find myself in a foreign nation and need the U.S. embassy should I not go to it because I disagree with some of the national policy and my Gov't isn't a representation of me all of a sudden?

Also many people refer to the Gov't of their respective nation as there own that doesn't mean anything other than informing you of who their representatives are.
From my experience, whenever people hear you use the word "we", they assume that you + whoever you grouped yourself with are one entity. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that's what happens and that it leads to problems. You're free to say what you want.
 
From my experience, whenever people hear you use the word "we", they assume that you + whoever you grouped yourself with are one entity. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that's what happens and that it leads to problems. You're free to say what you want.

Well haven't had it become an issue in 24 years so I think I'm fine, thanks for the heads up either way.
 
Police officer: I had no choice but to open fire and kill a dozen women and children who were standing in my way to a fleeing criminal.

That makes it better.
 
Police officer: I had no choice but to open fire and kill a dozen women and children who were standing in my way to a fleeing criminal.

That makes it better.
Oh no, we want to take down Hamas but theres civillian on the neighborhood. I know, KILL THEM ALL. UNLEASH OUR HATE OF THEM!!!!!! (IDF logic)

Hamas may have the same logic and honestly they have been an instigator many times. But Israel is the one who realise it. Bless Palestinian people for their loss and Israel people who probably knows nothing behind the scenes.
 
Now I miss the days when war decided on a real battlefield, why don't both sides comes out in the open field and have a battle to the death, once and for all, instead of throwing bombs from afar then missed the intended target most of the time. I think both sides are cowards and rotten, willing to kill non combatants and treated them as collateral damage worthy as nice statistics for political use. :banghead:
 
http://stopwar.org.uk/news/israel-w...ldren-and-bomb-hospitals-in-gaza#.U9IxGECmXfX



Israel: why we had no choice but to kill children and bomb hospitals in Gaza

Hamas is cowardly and cynical, Israel says, hiding among children playing football on the beach or in ambulances rushing to help civilians we have bombed.

That is very pro Islamic site/organization. Just scroll through their feed. There is not one article about a dead Jew or any other casualty of terrorism caused by pro Islamic Extremists groups in the world.

No mention about this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/31/hamas-leader-denies-holoc_n_273078.html

For an organization/site that is called stopwar.org they are very "picky&choosy".

I think both sides of conflict have no problems producing propaganda that will help with pushing their agenda. Especially nowadays, when short attention span is so widespread and people won't research deeper than 140 characters limit on Twitter.
 
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That is very pro Islamic site/organization. Just scroll through their feed. There is not one article about a dead Jew or any other casualty of terrorism caused by pro Islamic Extremists groups in the world.

No mention about this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/31/hamas-leader-denies-holoc_n_273078.html

For an organization/site that is called stopwar.org they are very "picky&choosy".

I think both sides of conflict have no problems producing propaganda that will help with pushing their agenda. Especially nowadays, when short attention span is so widespread and people won't research deeper than 140 characters limit on Twitter.

Yes, but I try to pick what is worth. This link that I've posted is linked to The Guardian.

I don't think there's a site or media organization that is completely unbiased. That is up to us. We have to avoid biased articles. But we shouldn't dismiss an entire site just because of it's "view". There are good and bad journalists everywhere and good and bad news too.

I'm not searching news in Hamas or Islamic sites or Jewish / Israeli propaganda media.

You can't deny any of those attacks in the link. They all have background evidences like videos, photographs, reports.
 
A little something about who The Guardian caters for..

111.png
 
EDIT: Blog Post; How to criticise Israel without seeming ant-Semitic.

Possibly of more interest to some members than others...
I see the issue, the problem is that most Israelis are actively supporting this (namely people who were shelled in the past during the Intifadas), but failing to understand the human value and consequences of these acts.

Jews from outside Israel really do condemn this (me having to visit the local arab town every two weeks, where basically Palestineans, Syrians, Egyptians and Israelis hang around in their fabric selling business). So for me is more of a generalized hate for Israelis (not Jews) failing to understand the measure of retaliation.



In the past, specially when Israel set up offensives in 2002 and 2005, I did saw some general condemnation from the Israeli population towards the retaliatory actions by their own cabinet and military, Jews haven't been the problem, Israelis are.

Nowadays looking at them taking seats to watch the bombs fall, at the next day see an hospital bombed and the continue with the striking operations is not even human. I do understand that Hamas has wanted to kill Israelis (either by retaliatory action or by their own interest), but Israel is far more advanced, far more capable and far larger to actually generate a carpet-bombing operation that will likely end up with a lot of civilian casualties (which has been proven).


I do remember in 1991 during dessert storm the atrocity that some events took place (namely the Amiriyah shelter bombing incident) which were condemned and US actively apologized for them even if they resulted as a side effect of military targets sided with civilian shelters.

Gaza is pretty small and in some ways overpopulated, any military commander could assert that a bombing operation is a bad idea due to the huge toll in non combat casualties, yet both the cabinets and military high command give a go to this kind of thing, while is not being condemned by Israel population itself, which just demonstrates that Israelis themselves are pro-actively supporting this and forcing it.




Over 800 Palestinians killed while Israel loses 36 just shows how ridiculous this whole situation is. I particularly like how the cease fire is pin pointed towards Hamas which at this point are defending themselves from the Israeli offensive, which might end in additional territory to be gained.


Israelis are not evil but opportunistic, play the injured party, then bully over the opposition and see themselves as the aggressors to then gain some territories as the hostilities warm down, then some international condemnation over territories gained but not much fuzz about it.


Which is why I sustain that they should be just attacked by an outsider force better armed and better sourced than Hamas, because Israel has gotten away with it far too many times at the light of a more civilized world, maybe it will be Syria, maybe Iran, maybe ISIS, maybe someone else.

At the end of the day I might be cheering towards those aggressors, because Israelis stopped caring about the human value of Palestinians in the Gaza strip for decades now, and they should be punished for it, is not the diplomatic way in which things should develop in this world, but is how things will work for them.
 
At the end of the day I might be cheering towards those aggressors, because Israelis stopped caring about the human value of Palestinians in the Gaza strip for decades now

Who has stopped caring about the value of humans again?
 
Who has stopped caring about the value of humans again?
Maybe I'm short minded, but I have no idea what kind of rhetorical are you trying to do with that statement?

Nazis were bad, I get it, but no idea what to make out of it when they themselves they're starting doing the same thing towards Palestinians (isolating them in a closed area).
 
Maybe I'm short minded, but I have no idea what kind of rhetorical are you trying to do with that statement?

Nazis were bad, I get it, but no idea what to make out of it when they themselves they're starting doing the same thing towards Palestinians (isolating them in a closed area).
Can't compare the two. Despite the extremist nutjobs in the Knesset, Israel will not go down that same path.
 
Maybe I'm short minded, but I have no idea what kind of rhetorical are you trying to do with that statement?

You advocated the slaughter of Israelis because their military stopped caring about the value of the lives of Palestinian civilians. Seems hypocritical.
 

you
Which is why I sustain that they should be just attacked by an outsider force better armed and better sourced than Hamas, because Israel has gotten away with it far too many times at the light of a more civilized world, maybe it will be Syria, maybe Iran, maybe ISIS, maybe someone else.

At the end of the day I might be cheering towards those aggressors, because Israelis stopped caring about the human value of Palestinians in the Gaza strip for decades now, and they should be punished for it, is not the diplomatic way in which things should develop in this world, but is how things will work for them.
 
Which is why I sustain that they should be just attacked by an outsider force better armed and better sourced than Hamas, because Israel has gotten away with it far too many times at the light of a more civilized world, maybe it will be Syria, maybe Iran, maybe ISIS, maybe someone else.

At the end of the day I might be cheering towards those aggressors, because Israelis stopped caring about the human value of Palestinians in the Gaza strip for decades now, and they should be punished for it, is not the diplomatic way in which things should develop in this world, but is how things will work for them.

ISIS does NOT care about other people. They would be more likely to kill all Israelis (even Arab-Israelis) and then go on to kill the Palestinians who differ from their beliefs.

Syria has tried twice to go after Israel. They failed both times. Also not a country that really cares about it's own people. Note the numerous human rights violations they currently commit.

Iran.... same thing in terms of attacking Israel. Some people forget that Iran and Israel used to have a great relationship, until the regime changed in 1979. Actually, despite the rhetoric, I don't think Iran will actively try and invade Israel.
 
ISIS does NOT care about other people. They would be more likely to kill all Israelis (even Arab-Israelis) and then go on to kill the Palestinians who differ from their beliefs.
Since when the ISIS become Genghis Khan hordes?

I don't sympathize with them, but where are these thousands killed by ISIS, no doubt they will discharge everything on Israel, but to say that they will wipe out Palestine as well, is a bit ... extreme, is like saying the US would launch nuclear weapons towards Afghanistan after 9/11, a complete unfounded exaggeration.
Syria has tried twice to go after Israel. They failed both times. Also not a country that really cares about it's own people. Note the numerous human rights violations they currently commit.
They have gone twice, both of those times severely under-equipped, and to be honest I have different feelings towards Syrian government, human rights accusations started just after they increased their economic exchanges with Russia and China and ditched the Dollar as primarily exchange currency, so I'm not buying the whole "human right violation" after these kinds of economic isolation from western economic spheres.
Iran.... same thing in terms of attacking Israel. Some people forget that Iran and Israel used to have a great relationship, until the regime changed in 1979. Actually, despite the rhetoric, I don't think Iran will actively try and invade Israel.
Part of the reason why the revolution succeeded on Iran was due to the pressure that the sultan was having due to having that kind of relationship with Israel, so it wasn't Iran state but just the Sultan, everyone else was against it (much like Sadat in Egypt during the recognition of Israel after Yom Kippur and the giving up of the Sinai).
 
Since when the ISIS become Genghis Khan hordes?

I don't sympathize with them, but where are these thousands killed by ISIS
ISIS are currently busy occupying the Iraqi town of Mosul and demanding every female up to the age of 45 has their clitoris cut off.

ISIS/ISIL claim to have killed 2,000 Iraqis in the Northern Iraq Offensive alone. That's just since June this year - they've been active since 2006...
 
ISIS are currently busy occupying the Iraqi town of Mosul and demanding every female up to the age of 45 has their clitoris cut off.

Not disproven but looking more-and-more like an anti-ISIS hoax, as if such things were necessary.

What shocked me most out of this story was the number of women between 15-45 in Egypt who have suffered this procedure. I guess that's because Britain's long had an obsession with Egypt as a holiday destination, it's as though we consider them to be a "safe kind of Arab", to put it very generally.

FGM's not in the brochures, in fairness.
 
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