Kaz interview on Eurogamer - Standards are here to stay! Poll added

[Fat Tyre]

Agreed. Myself and all of my friends who played previous GTs pre-ordered GT5.

None of us bought GT6, because we bought GT5!

Same here but I was dumb enough to give PD another shot and bought it because some of the reviews said things like A.I. had improved and because I already had a PS3 which I only bought to play GT prologue and 5... but I'm cured now, I'm thinking of getting an XBone or building a PC to play PCars but I'll definitely not bother with GT7.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Agreed. Myself and all of my friends who played previous GTs pre-ordered GT5.

None of us bought GT6, because we bought GT5!

There you have it.
Undoubtedly, I believe the poor sales of GT6 are a backlash from the extreme disappointment of many players from GT5.
And GT6 provided little conciliation to counter the situation.

 

[mr_serious]

There you have it.
Undoubtedly, I believe the poor sales of GT6 are a backlash from the extreme disappointment of many players from GT5.
And GT6 provided little conciliation to counter the situation.

Having been an afficionado of GT since GT1, I had heard the promise of better AI so many times before. I was still willing to believe the promises of damage and better AI before GT5.

I no longer have any faith at all in PDs promises. I'll always be willing to buy a GT game, but it has to meet my basic requirements for a racing game....

Decent AI
Practice
Qualifying
Configurability
Flexibility

Or to sum up; competitive racing and options. Things that PD seem to have forgotten exist.

 

[Blkout]

I'll likely still buy GT7 but only after its been discounted as I did with GT6. The bottom line is that as a racing game fan, I'll play it because it will still be a decent game and dissapointing at the same time, but I don't expect any outstanding games anymore from PD. PD is the same company it was since the original Gran Turismo, the problem is that there's too many other developers now that have set the bar much higher and the GT series just isn't good enough anymore to compete. They've spent far too many years resting on their laurels and it seems now they're so far behind the competition that they can't even come close to their competition any more.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Having been an afficionado of GT since GT1, I had heard the promise of better AI so many times before. I was still willing to believe the promises of damage and better AI before GT5.

I no longer have any faith at all in PDs promises. I'll always be willing to buy a GT game, but it has to meet my basic requirements for a racing game....

Decent AI
Practice
Qualifying
Configurability
Flexibility

Or to sum up; competitive racing and options. Things that PD seem to have forgotten exist.

Having my anticipation run wild after such a long wait, I thought GT5 would be like GT4 on steroids.
Wow what a shocker!

 

[Tenacious D]

If GT5 is so disappointing, how do you explain the one million sales more it garnered from November 2012 through the following summer, when news of GT6 was coming out?

From GT Planet News in December:

As the Gran Turismo series approaches its 15th anniversary on December 23, 2012, Polyphony Digital has quietly updated their sales statistics, revealing over 68 million copies of the games have been sold worldwide and correcting the previous, smaller sum first reported in early November.

Total sales for each title, including special editions (such as GT5 XL and GT5 Academy Edition) now stand at:

• Gran Turismo: 10,850,000
• Gran Turismo 2: 9,370,000
• Gran Turismo 3 A-spec: 14,890,000
• Gran Turismo Concept Series: 1,560,000
• Gran Turismo 4 Prologue: 1,400,000
• Gran Turismo 4: 11,600,000
• Gran Turismo 5 Prologue: 5,350,000
• Gran Turismo PSP: 3,860,000
• Gran Turismo 5: 9,190,000

And then, sales bumped up another million by May or June:

SCEE CEO Jim Ryan has revealed at the GT event that the series has passed 70 million in sales. Gran Turismo 5 sales are in too.

Some people were invited at the (Silverstone) event and are live blogging about it. This is an incredible achievement considering Europe has contributed at least 35 million to the total worldwide sales.

There’s a 15th year anniversary event going on live right now where the (new) game will be announced soon. A press release gaffe has revealed the car and track totals of the game, and it features an improved engine.

Gran Turismo 5 which was released in 2010 has passed 10 million in sales and is the best selling PS3 game ever.

As of March 2013, Gran Turismo 5 sold over 10 million units.[127] For 13 days, 423,000 copies of the game were sold per day,[128] helping to break sales records in Europe.[129]Gran Turismo 5 was the best-selling video game for the PlayStation 3 until 2013 when it was beaten by Grand Theft Auto V.

By then the price was $30 or $40, but would you spend money on a new copy of a bad game?

 

[Griffith500]

Having my anticipation run wild after such a long wait, I thought GT5 would be like GT4 on steroids.
Wow what a shocker!

So, uselessly bulky and unstable? It's all your fault!

 

[mr_serious]

If GT5 is so disappointing, how do you explain the one million sales more it garnered from November 2012 through the following summer, when news of GT6 was coming out?

From GT Planet News in December:

And then, sales bumped up another million by May or June:


By then the price was $30 or $40, but would you spend money on a new copy of a bad game?

1 million unwanted presents maybe? Who knows? From my perspective it defies all logic

 

[glassjaw]

That's not so surprising when you consider that GT3 has been for sale, new, for several years. I saw GT3 for sale new at the time GT5 Prologue came to the States. It was one of the most heavily marketed games in history. But as for slumping, I wish I could slump so badly. GT4 sold 11 million copies in five years. GT5 did it in three. I know that a number of critics have pointed out that GT6 can't be selling too well. But you can't blame a game for being all that sucky when it's arguably better than its predecessor in many ways. Painted a car lately in GT5?

I'd agree that GT6 is a better game than GT5; I'd also agree if you said you prefer eating insects to dog s**t. Of course, that's an exaggeration and I don't think either game is that terrible. But the fact remains that GT6 is an extension of GT5 and shares many of its flaws. Improvements were undoubtedly made, but I'd argue that the things PD fixed were silly game design choices to begin with - choices that I believe most of us here on GTP would have had the foresight not to make. Like the used car dealership, for example. GT6's core issues are the same as GT5's. The graphical inadequacy of most of the cars is one of them, sound is another, and you could certainly make the argument that PD is avoiding these real issues by attending to other aspects auxiliary to the core game. Like driving on the moon.

No, GT6 didn't have the great Sony hype machine behind it, and that only damaged the game's performance. But in addition to that, perhaps another reason GT6 didn't sell as well as it could have is because it didn't fix GT5's burning issues - it merely covered over them with a fresh coat of paint, and people weren't as forgiving this time around.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

If GT5 is so disappointing, how do you explain the one million sales more it garnered from November 2012 through the following summer, when news of GT6 was coming out?

Thats easy.
Just like me, they had to play it to believe it.

 

[mister dog]

GT's popularity kept on rising from 1998-2010 because each game they delivered was top notch for the systems back then (until the PS2 era), it became THE racing game for playstation so it's only logical everyone bought GT5 (myself included). I think if you would have visited GTP until the release of 5 there weren't many complaint threads (correct me if i'm wrong).

5 changed it however, we all expected the next step on the new consoles, and a fix to the flaws we were already talking about back then; AI, sounds and career structure. GT5 did nothing to fix that but gave us better eye candy and 6 made it all worse by being even more of a lazy job in design decisions.

People will only gradually find out that the GT series is getting stale, so it takes a while for general sales numbers to go down from the hype level it build with people over the course of 12 long years, but if you can judge how 6 is doing they are starting to get the message.

 

[Zuku]

Thats easy.
Just like me, they had to play it to believe it.

THANK YOU!

It's this simple when you have a game that comes after another which was a highly received game this is what happens.

This has happened with MANY MANY Series over time.

Grand Theft Auto: GTA San Andreas to GTA 4

Final Fantasy FFX(Last of suppose Golden Years) to FFXII

Kingdom Hearts: Kingdom Hearts 1 and Chain of Memories to Kingdom Hearts 2.

People came up saying "I have to try this" even when a game is rated poorly this happened with Kingdom Hearts 2 for me way back IGN put up a 7.6 and first words out of my mouth "they're lying." So I had to play it first before I made a judgement and wouldn't you know it haven't played a Kingdom Hearts Game since lol.

The only outlier in that list is GTA because GTA 4 sold more than even San Andreas, but I guarantee you people weren't that in love with the game.

I say all to say again people got Gran Turismo 5 for a compound of reasons.
1. The Success of Gran Turismo 4
2. Hype of Playstation 3, Gran Turismo HD Online, Damage etc etc.
3. Gran Turismo 5 Prolouge
4. Word of Mouth
5. Even when people began to badmouth the game just as @SuperCobraJet said they didn't believe it was bad.
6. GT5 XL Edition was out so it seemed like they fixed a lot that's the reason I got XL at the time.
7. Also there still weren't racing games like GT on Playstation now that is almost no longer the case.

extension of 7 that's only going to get worse even if Pcars doesn't do that well it's the fact that someone out there is attempting to dethrone PD that should have them shaking a little. Cause if they do good enough to sway even some of the forum members, and at least put out a decent product talking in range of 7 out of 10 decent. Then PD has a problem.

 

[Tenacious D]

I think you guys are being too clever by half. GT3's popularity is justified by sales, and then when GT5's sales figures are presented, they're dismissed. As much as I've been accused of imposing my own biases on others around here, I see an awful lot of "I hate GT5 and 6, therefore the world does too."

You guys really need to consider that even though GT5's and 6's car sounds and Standard car models make your ears and eyes bleed, many of you, the world doesn't seem to be taking it nearly so hard. Which should be obvious, that after three years, only polar bears didn't know about GT5's issues. And it's a pretty thin argument to say that GT5's flaws must be okay to gamers, but GT6's aren't, when it's a better game in many ways.

When I line up the two games and the environment to which they were born, one substantial difference sticks out. For GT6, the next generation of systems had launched. For GT5, PS3 was the next generation.

Sure, GT6 has issues. Some of you can't stop posting about them as if no one had "heard" you. But if they really weren't any big deal to gamers in general in regard to GT5, why would they suddenly be for 6? I'm dubious of these claims.

 

[mister dog]

I think you guys are being too clever by half. GT3's popularity is justified by sales, and then when GT5's sales figures are presented, they're dismissed.

Who dismissed GT5's sales figures exactly?

 

[Zuku]

Who dismissed GT5's sales figures exactly?

Trying to figure that out too we know what GT5 sales figures are, but still we also know why GT2, GT3, and GT4 sales are the way they are too. Heck even GT1(Groundbreaking game for PS1)

Each game before it was awesome.

 

[glassjaw]

You guys really need to consider that even though GT5's and 6's car sounds and Standard car models make your ears and eyes bleed, many of you, the world doesn't seem to be taking it nearly so hard. Which should be obvious, that after three years, only polar bears didn't know about GT5's issues. And it's a pretty thin argument to say that GT5's flaws must be okay to gamers, but GT6's aren't, when it's a better game in many ways.

I don't understand how in one breath you can cite sales figures indicating that GT6 has sold poorly compared to its predecessor, and then in the next say that the world is ignoring the game's flaws. GT6's poor sales are not due to a single factor, as there are many at play. You have Sony's inability/unwillingness to drum up enthusiasm for the game, a next-gen system on the horizon, and then the burden of following in the footsteps of the worst-reviewed entry in the franchise. And it's pretty safe to say that the standard car thing was partially responsible for GT5's poor reception, just as the rest of its flaws were. Any review makes note of it - you cannot argue it helped the game's cause.

As for gamers being less tolerant the second time around, @mister dog and @Zuku both explained the rationale perfectly. When you have a brand with a reputation for flawlessness and consistency like GT had in the late '90s/early 2000's, you're most definitely going to have a dedicated group of people that will run out and buy the game based on that reputation alone. We all do it, and it's human nature. If those people were disappointed by GT5 though, they're obviously not going to support its sequel in the same way. I'm not saying that's what happened every single time with every single customer, but it's a very plausible scenario.

 

[Nooboogering]

Will Gran Turismo be a flop because the standard cars?
Will standard cars in GT7 look like standard cars on the Playstation 3?
Can PD repeat history by selling lots of Gran Turismo's on a new console?

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I think you guys are being too clever by half. GT3's popularity is justified by sales, and then when GT5's sales figures are presented, they're dismissed. As much as I've been accused of imposing my own biases on others around here, I see an awful lot of "I hate GT5 and 6, therefore the world does too."

You guys really need to consider that even though GT5's and 6's car sounds and Standard car models make your ears and eyes bleed, many of you, the world doesn't seem to be taking it nearly so hard. Which should be obvious, that after three years, only polar bears didn't know about GT5's issues. And it's a pretty thin argument to say that GT5's flaws must be okay to gamers, but GT6's aren't, when it's a better game in many ways.

When I line up the two games and the environment to which they were born, one substantial difference sticks out. For GT6, the next generation of systems had launched. For GT5, PS3 was the next generation.

Sure, GT6 has issues. Some of you can't stop posting about them as if no one had "heard" you. But if they really weren't any big deal to gamers in general in regard to GT5, why would they suddenly be for 6? I'm dubious of these claims.

You are missing the whole point Ten D.
Sales of the next game, are based primarily on the majority of players perception of the last game.
So you are always one game away from the disappointment factor affecting sales.
GT5 had very good sales because of carry over anticipation from the great reputation of 1-4.
It did not hit home until GT6.

Are there other factors involved? Yea sure, but I believe they are secondary.

 

[Tenacious D]

Who dismissed GT5's sales figures exactly?

Great... now I'm mixing up different threads. Sorry.

I don't understand how in one breath you can cite sales figures indicating that GT6 has sold poorly compared to its predecessor, and then in the next say that the world is ignoring the game's flaws.

Well, specifically I stated that the world didn't mind GT5's flaws, because the game sold the usual 10-plus million copies. We did, because even I added my 256 bits about the XP system, the paintless paint shop and how freaking EXPENSIVE it was to keep a decent supply of paint chips handy - you need a freaking car to PAINT a car, after all. And a slew of other weird and unforseen problems, like Museum Cards clogging the hard drive and hurting performance, and the many patches making the game unstable for quite a large number of gamers. Contrast this with the systemic problems of GT6, Standard cars and car sounds aside:

• Promised content is late
• The bots are too slow
• Online is still frooky, and even has fewer options than GT5 had

Add in the Standard cars and poor sound samples on a number of cars, and that's five issues, versus the 15 I had against GT5. Others had even more. And keep in mind that reviews don't tend to grouse about the Standard cars and car sounds, which are more interview points than review gripes. Those are serious issues to many hardcore racing fans, not so much other folk.

This is why I insist that the one big reason is that GT6 is on a last gen system, and other factors may figure in as possible contributors. Releasing on a last gen console in the face of such powerful successors is apparently the kiss of death for new games in this era, unless your name is GTA, even those supposedly much loved by fans. Take GRID Autosport for example. I think I'm the only one here who has complained about it. Mainly for reckless bots, but overall, the game wasn't quite what I expected it to be after getting a taste of Dirt 3, which was also popular. Notice how well it fared in Europe according to Metro, where racing games are as wildly popular as futbol:

Another last gen-only sequel has failed to make much impact on the charts, as Transformers: Rise Of The Dark Spark also tanks.

Despite a history of mediocre reviews the Sniper Elite franchise has earned its second number one debut, although Chart-Track has offered no clue as to how well Sniper Elite III did compared to its predecessor.

The next gen versions accounted for the lion’s share of the game’s sales, although the split between the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One was quite close – at 35 per cent to 29 per cent. The Xbox 360 version took 21 per cent of sales and the PlayStation 3 was on 14 per cent.

GRID Autosport was the second-highest new entry of the week, but only managed to get as high as number seven in the all formats chart. The highest any version got in the individual formats chart was the Xbox 360 at number 12. The Xbox 360 version accounted for 55 per cent of sales, the PlayStation 3 for 41 per cent, and the PC for 4 per cent.

That’s the second major last gen-only sequel to do badly, after 2014 FIFA World Cup Brazil, and will make Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel’s performance later in the year very interesting to watch.

And I've read a number of reviews of GRID before deciding to go ahead and buy it, and not one of them mentioned how utterly rowdy the racing is. Reviews of the physics were generally quite glowing, while I thought Forza 4 and GT6 both smoked it in almost every way. So you have a game which should have been ideal for the market, doing nothing wrong according to most sources, especially if GT6 did indeed sour racing fans. And yet it's floundering. Why? Maybe the only reason is it's not on PS4 or The ONE.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

This is why I insist that the one big reason is that GT6 is on a last gen system,

Forgetabout this one.
Its a no-brainer.
Which market would you rather sell too, 80 million(PS3) or 8 million(PS4).

If you can't sell 5 million games to 80million potential customers, how will you ever sell 5 million to 8 million potential customers?

 

[mister dog]

Forgetabout this one.
Its a no-brainer.
Which market would you rather sell too, 80 million(PS3) or 8 million(PS4).

If you can't sell 5 million games to 80million potential customers, how will you ever sell 5 million to 8 million potential customers?

They do have less options to choose from though

 

[Tenacious D]

I'd say even GRID laments Codies' decision to produce it for the last-gen systems.

Now having said that, I personally would rather have GT6 on PS3 now, rather than groaning about my fifteen GT5 grouches for another eighteen months or more. I'm extremely grateful that I don't have to grind up a car every time I need to paint a car, have to deal with the ignorant XP system, fuss with a reluctant B-Spec Bob which could be better, or quit the game after three races because the numerous patches made it crash if I try to do one more. I was really getting tired of those. I miss the tiny number of Race Mod cars. I miss the Course Maker, and an Arcade Mode with 16 cars on track, with standing starts to boot. But given the choice to play GT5 or 6, I'm gonna stick with 6. For me, it's a nice stand-in while I wait for P CARS and GT7. For others, it's GRID while they wait for P CARS solely, which is fine, pick your poison.

Having GT6 on PS3 leaves the door open for not just GT7 on PS4, but games like Drive Club and P CARS to have a season of uncontested sales. And potentially a chance for Kaz and the team to see how they have to measure up, though I think Forza 5 is sufficient in that regard, and sooner than later, F6. Who else is Gran Turismo really in a race against?

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Who else is Gran Turismo really in a race against?

Well now that you ask, I would say most of the GT players who are still rather disgruntled.
BTW, what is with this "Lookest over there routine".

 

[Tenacious D]

Well now that you ask, I would say most of the GT players who are still rather disgruntled.

Frankly, I'd agree with this. Most Forza and GT players have staked their homesteads in their respective territories. They will buy the other systems, the respective games along with them, as well as gaming PCs for some. But it does seem that no game will touch that fanbase very much, they seem pretty devoted.

BTW, what is with this "Lookest over there routine".

This, I'm not sure about. If you mean my post about GRID, that should be easy to explain.

Supposedly, GT6 is SO BAD that only devoted fans are buying it.

So, along comes GRID Autosport, a game that is apparently SO GOOD that buying it is a no brainer, especially in the European market for which racing games are as popular as Halo and GTA. Especially if GT6 is SO BAD that the usual market that gobbles Gran Turismo up would be expected to glom onto another game to fill the vacuum, and nothing else is forthcoming in console racing until DC and P CARS.

But, not happening for it either. Quite a mystery... except to me.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

This, I'm not sure about. If you mean my post about GRID, that should be easy to explain.

Supposedly, GT6 is SO BAD that only devoted fans are buying it.

So, along comes GRID Autosport, a game that is apparently SO GOOD that buying it is a no brainer, especially in the European market for which racing games are as popular as Halo and GTA. Especially if GT6 is SO BAD that the usual market that gobbles Gran Turismo up would be expected to glom onto another game to fill the vacuum, and nothing else is forthcoming in console racing until DC and P CARS.

But, not happening for it either. Quite a mystery... except to me.

I'm really glad it wasn't, "hard to explain".

How about this. Does the phrase " very plausible scenario" mean anything to you?

 

[Zuku]

Frankly, I'd agree with this. Most Forza and GT players have staked their homesteads in their respective territories. They will buy the other systems, the respective games along with them, as well as gaming PCs for some. But it does seem that no game will touch that fanbase very much, they seem pretty devoted.


This, I'm not sure about. If you mean my post about GRID, that should be easy to explain.

Supposedly, GT6 is SO BAD that only devoted fans are buying it.

So, along comes GRID Autosport, a game that is apparently SO GOOD that buying it is a no brainer, especially in the European market for which racing games are as popular as Halo and GTA. Especially if GT6 is SO BAD that the usual market that gobbles Gran Turismo up would be expected to glom onto another game to fill the vacuum, and nothing else is forthcoming in console racing until DC and P CARS.

But, not happening for it either. Quite a mystery... except to me.

If I get what you're going for then it's easy to explain why no one gobbles up Pcars and DC(whatever that is no idea).

NEW

That's why no one has been gobbling it up when you have a new product people are weary of just dropping loads of cash on it unless they know it's a sure fire hit.

Me personally I don't know if PCars is sure fire the only thing I see so far are Graphics that's bringing me to the table now the Gameplay/Game itself is what will keep me there at the table long after the WOW! effect has worn off.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Forgetabout this one.
Its a no-brainer.
Which market would you rather sell too, 80 million(PS3) or 8 million(PS4).

If you can't sell 5 million games to 80million potential customers, how will you ever sell 5 million to 8 million potential customers?

I'd bet that GT6 on PS3 has outsold even the best selling PS4 game to date.

 

[Tenacious D]

How about this. Does the phrase " very plausible scenario" mean anything to you?

You'll have to explain.

If I get what you're going for then it's easy to explain why no one gobbles up Pcars and DC(whatever that is no idea).

NEW

That's why no one has been gobbling it up when you have a new product people are weary of just dropping loads of cash on it unless they know it's a sure fire hit.

Well, they're both due out this fall. And DC = Drive Club, sorry for all the acronyms.

And I'm up on the challenge of a new game launch, and the fight to get that vital public acceptance in numbers. But GRID is a surprise. Codemasters does have a reputation for some nice games, and GRID has been hyped quite a bit. Hey, they lured in one of Gran Turismo's biggest fans.

It hadn't occurred to me to even bother about sales numbers until yesterday, with all the talk over GT6. I'd just assumed that GRID sold pretty well, being more sim than cade according to a number of sources, including Darrin Ganji of InsideSimRacing who compared it favorably to GT6 and Forza. And then it turns out that GRID is floundering a lot worse apparently than GT6 is floundering. It seems that PS3 and 360 are now some sort of gaming wasteland where last gen games go to fade into obscurity.

While Drive Club may be a really hard sell on PS4, being a mix of Project Gotham and Need For Speed, Project CARS is coming from a racing background of sorts. While some will be turned off by the company which made the Shift games, others know the history of that and are watching the YT vids with baited breath. We'll find out soon enough, because fall is coming quickly.

 

[synon]

While Drive Club may be a really hard sell on PS4, being a mix of Project Gotham and Need For Speed, Project CARS is coming from a racing background of sorts. While some will be turned off by the company which made the Shift games, others know the history of that and are watching the YT vids with baited breath. We'll find out soon enough, because fall is coming quickly.

I suspect Project CARS will sell in any case because of the way it was funded.

Forgetabout this one.
Its a no-brainer.
Which market would you rather sell too, 80 million(PS3) or 8 million(PS4).

If you can't sell 5 million games to 80million potential customers, how will you ever sell 5 million to 8 million potential customers?

At present Watch Dogs is selling more on PS4 than PS3, so I don't really think it is a no-brainer.

 

[MXH]

At present Watch Dogs is selling more on PS4 than PS3, so I don't really think it is a no-brainer.

I'm not the least surprised since it was mainly marketed for the next-gen consoles with a (so far) lacking game library. Not to mention that you'll never get the same experience or eye-candy on last-gen.

I'd assume the same would apply for GT6 if it was cross-gen.