Many Killed in Attack in Nice

Exorcet
You're saying your life is worth more than other people's, which can't be proven true.
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What? His life is worth lot more to him than other people's life, what needs to be proven ...

Exorcet
Hurting the innocent to catch terrorist shouldn't be tolerated and defeats the entire point.
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I understand what you're saying but you wouldn't be so "above the thing" when it was you affected.
For me, people who want at least something to be done (however unrealistic) have more compassion with these innocent victims than those politicians and the likes with their empty phrases about standing strong or whatever, because in reality it is just waiting for another attack which can't be prevented.

mister dog
In Dutch we have a word for people that like to pretend this has nothing to do with Islam, and say "there really is nothing to worry about as it's only a crazy individual here and there". It's called 'Wegkijkers' which means 'people who look away'.
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Don't you know, highly inspired nutjobs don't count as true muslims ... even though there is no reference of true muslim as Milouse pointed out:

Milouse
Yesterday, a truck driver in Nice did practiced "his" faith "properly". Both of you just ignored different Koran verses.

Anyway, my point is that you don't need to mention "properly" in your sentence, as what makes it proper is defined by the "my" preceding the word "faith".
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prisonermonkeys
It is well-documented that alienating and ostracising parts of the community is a major cause of radicalisation.
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Yep, question is who is doing this alienating and ostracising from the society ...
 
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novcze
What? His life is worth lot more to him than other people's life, what needs to be proven ...
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That is fair in one's own perspective. I'm talking objectively though. There is no objective way to place one person before another. You cannot say that it's objectively good to limit general freedom for any purpose.


I understand what you're saying but you wouldn't be so "above the thing" when it was you affected.
For me, people who want at least something to be done (however unrealistic) have more compassion with these innocent victims than those politicians and the likes with their empty phrases about standing strong or whatever, because in reality it is just waiting for another attack which can't be prevented.
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I don't see why being personally affected would change my mind. It could, but it would be for bad reasons. Panic and fear. If you're telling other people that they need to change their lives on your behalf, you're doing the same thing the terrorists are doing.

You also don't need everyone to take the same steps as you to improve your safety. You can personally decide to act in such a way so as to reduce your chances of being caught in an attack and also collaborate with like minded people to further reduce your chance of being caught in a situation you would rather avoid.
 
prisonermonkeys
You're just making the assumption that it has something to do with radical Islam. You don't have any proof of it. Once you do have proof, then by all means, go ahead.
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Haha keep on sleeping.

prisonermonkeys
If "people who like to pretend this has nothing to do with Islam" are a threat, then surely people like yourself who rush to judgement are an equal threat. You have no proof that this was an attack carried out in the name of Islam, but you're happy to blame the religion. What happens when the dust settles from the next attack and the people responsible say that they did it because you assumed that they were guilty of the last one without proof? It is well-documented that alienating and ostracising parts of the community is a major cause of radicalisation.
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Again, if you deny that these thousands of bombings/ killings worldwide of innocent civilians in the recent years has nothing to do with Islam, you are seriously delusional. Care to defend the verses of the Koran i just posted on the last page that call for the killing of unbelievers? I guess we should put it all in context no and it isn't as bad as it seems literally written down.


prisonermonkeys
We have a word in English for people who want to blame Muslims for everything that happens: Islamophobe.
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Indeed, who would have guessed that people in the west would start becoming 'islamophobic', after all the good news and experiences we have with Islam in general...
 
Mister Dog, above

I will bite my tongue and withhold expression of my considerable discomfort and anger with your quotation from the Quran in this way, in respect only to the victims in France who will be feeling loss right now.

Your quote is entirely out of context and you have used it foolishly and carelessly. This shows how little people are prepared to read, study, gain knowledge of a topic and then speak in an open forum such as this. The quote in the Quran you mention referred specifically to a peace treaty between the Muslims and the non Muslims in Arabia as it was then. The non Muslims broke the terms of the peace treaty and started to attack the Muslims who had respected the agreement and the terms of this peace agreement. The verses you quote relate to permission that God gave, in those specific circumstances only, to go and attack the non Muslims as a means of self defence only due to the non Muslims objective at that time to eradicate the Muslims. Have you read the whole Quran, or at least the whole chapter of this verse? Islam does not allow for the killing of innocent people in indiscriminate ways and a handful of misguided Muslims seem to believe.

For you to quote this in an entirely out of context way and spread the wrong and loose information about Islam is appalling. Shame on you.

If you are interested to learn of a verse which does not require context, which is a general Ayah, or verse, of the Quran, then read Surah Al Maidah, chapter 5, verse 32. Roughly translated this states;

If you save one single life it is as though you have saved the whole of humanity and if you kill an innocent then it is as though you have killed the whole of humanity.

If you read the Quran properly, there are scores of verses which prohibit killing or harming of people. The Quran states that there is no compulsion in religion. Surah Al Kafirun; this is a chapter of the Quran which states exactly this. No ambiguity, no room for 'interpretation'.
 
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MCFerocious
Mister Dog, above

I will bite my tongue and withhold expression of my considerable discomfort and anger with your quotation from the Quran in this way, in respect only to the victims in France who will be feeling loss right now.

Your quote is entirely out of context and you have used it foolishly and carelessly. This shows how little people are prepared to read, study, gain knowledge of a topic and then speak in an open forum such as this. The quote in the Quran you mention referred specifically to a peace treaty between the Muslims and the non Muslims in Arabia as it was then. The non Muslims broke the terms of the peace treaty and started to attack the Muslims who had respected the agreement and the terms of this peace agreement. The verses you quote relate to permission that God gave, in those specific circumstances only, to go and attack the non Muslims as a means of self defence only due to the non Muslims objective at that time to eradicate the Muslims. Have you read the whole Quran, or at least the whole chapter of this verse? Islam does not allow for the killing of innocent people in indiscriminate ways and a handful of misguided Muslims seem to believe.

For you to quote this in an entirely out of context way and spread the wrong and loose information about Islam is appalling. Shame on you.
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People take the Bible out of context all the time. It has gotten to the point where there are over 250 different versions of it. I don't see Islamic scholars going around and making another version of the Quran just because they don't like something in it. Mainly because there is a threat of death attached to anyone who is apostate.

Besides, I think that @mister dog made a very valid point. If Muhammad allegedly practiced a religion of peace, then why bring a sword into the party about half way through his holy book? Furthermore, how would YOU resolve the conflict that all Muslims are to practice Jihad every way that they can, and still call yourself peaceful?
 
Sanji Himura
If Muhammad allegedly practiced a religion of peace, then why bring a sword into the party about half way through his holy book?
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1st-millenium social/military convention?

Sanji Himura
Furthermore, how would YOU resolve the conflict that all Muslims are to practice Jihad every way that they can, and still call yourself peaceful?
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By understanding the basic meaning of Jihad - struggling with the sin inside oneself. It's pretty much a direct parallel of faith and gospel for christers. Jihadists like ISIS interpret jihad in a tremendously fundamentalist (and clearly insane way) their message has nothing to do with how the majority of muslims see life, it's about power and control.
 
TenEightyOne
1st-millenium social/military convention?
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Still doesn't disqualify the question. Christianity was able to spread its message without warfare 300 500 years before Muhammad, and most Christians were executed for even practicing their beliefs because they refused to adopt the State religion.
 
Gents, with respect, you really need to understand the meaning of Jihad before 'declaring' a position on it as though one is some kind of authority on it. 10-81 is entirely correct and spot on. Jihad means 'struggle' - as humans we are inclined to sin, and we are compelled to fight against ourselves, struggle against ourselves. Whether that is a drug or alcohol addiction or a sexual depravity, we are to fight our ill desires. This is the Jihad which we as Muslims are compelled to engage in. If we do not engage in this Jihad, or struggle, we succumb to our desires, whatever they may be which lead to our destruction.

Jihad may also take the form of holy fighting BUT this is only one form of Jihad AND there are very strict and specific conditions to this which are specified in the Quran and the 'hadeeth', or statements of the Prophet. If Muslims are under attack we are permitted to self defend ourselves. It absolutely certainly does not involve taking a vehicle, aircraft, truck or train, and going killing people indiscriminately.

Islam is very simple with one message only; worship God, the most awesome created and sustainer of the universe and follow the teachings of Muhammad, the Messenger of God who taught the message of peace, justice, and respect. We are to prostelyse our faith, spread the word, yes, but there is no compulsion in religion. The Prophet taught the concept of 'Tawheed' for the first thirteen years of his prophethood and nothing else, so important is the single simple message of submitting our will to God and singling out God alone for worship.

We live in a sad time. It is undeniable that some, an extremely tiny minority, of Muslims have misunderstood this message of Islam. But read, do your research and don't take the witch hunting tabloid headlines as gospel. If people really understood the authenticity, simplicity and beauty of Islam they would see how it is able to give purpose to and enrich people's lives.
 
prisonermonkeys
Resources are finite, and can only be directed where needed. With no cause to believe that an attack was imminent, there was no apparent need to use those resources there, especially since positioning them in Nice meant that they would not be stationed elsewhere.
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As a popular tourist resort, Nice should have had enough reinforcements (at least for one day of mass celebrations). They could at least block the approaches to the walking areas with police trucks or buses. Truck attacks aren't a unique thing in the world and France wasn't the first country to face it.

prisonermonkeys
The only solution would be to constantly deploy resources everywhere, which not only turns the country into a police state, but also means changing your way of life as a response to terrorism - and, as is oft-quoted, that means the terrorists win.
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Terrorists already win when they can kill and terrorize people whenever they want. You can tell yourself that terrorists won't scare you, but that won't make the actual threat disappear. I know an individual may think "this will never happen to me", but please, think of other people who may become victims of the next attack.

And as someone who lives in a "police state", I can tell you about how I come to a crowded event, whether it's national holiday, rock group concert or DTM race. I go to one of the shown entry points, walk through a metal detector frame and show the contents of my bag if an officer asks me. By the way, I see that other entries are blocked by police trucks and patrolmen outside carry AK's and body armor. Then I walk into the area to have fun and enjoy whatever I came for. And I don't feel like my way of life is changed or my rights are violated.

prisonermonkeys
Your entire argument hinges on the idea the police could somehow predict the actions of a lone individual who acted entirely within the bounds of the law until he hit the first person - which is impossible to do.
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I doubt this "lone individual" suddenly decided to kill 80+ people on his own (he's not like Breivik to me at all). If he had contacts with some Islamists cell (the police did arrest some people already, didn't they?), it's wasn't impossible to the security agencies to interfere.
 
@prisonermonkeys

Concrete-Barrier-01.jpg
 
MCFerocious
Mister Dog, above

I will bite my tongue and withhold expression of my considerable discomfort and anger with your quotation from the Quran in this way, in respect only to the victims in France who will be feeling loss right now.

Your quote is entirely out of context and you have used it foolishly and carelessly. This shows how little people are prepared to read, study, gain knowledge of a topic and then speak in an open forum such as this. The quote in the Quran you mention referred specifically to a peace treaty between the Muslims and the non Muslims in Arabia as it was then. The non Muslims broke the terms of the peace treaty and started to attack the Muslims who had respected the agreement and the terms of this peace agreement. The verses you quote relate to permission that God gave, in those specific circumstances only, to go and attack the non Muslims as a means of self defence only due to the non Muslims objective at that time to eradicate the Muslims. Have you read the whole Quran, or at least the whole chapter of this verse? Islam does not allow for the killing of innocent people in indiscriminate ways and a handful of misguided Muslims seem to believe.

For you to quote this in an entirely out of context way and spread the wrong and loose information about Islam is appalling. Shame on you.
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Well imagine if i can pull a quote out of context, how many others can't do the same?
Bit the general problem with every religion don't you think?

It is up to the Muslim communities to stop this abuse, as it is coming from your own midst. It is not up to us to try and sugarcoat 'the abuse of the holy book' and accept these atrocities. Sadly whilst there are many Muslims that condone all these barbaric and hateful acts which deliberately target innocent civilians, there is also a huge part of said Muslim community that secretly approves of it, and would like nothing better than that Islam takes over the world and Sharia is imposed.
 
MCFerocious
Gents, with respect, you really need to understand the meaning of Jihad before 'declaring' a position on it as though one is some kind of authority on it. 10-81 is entirely correct and spot on. Jihad means 'struggle' - as humans we are inclined to sin, and we are compelled to fight against ourselves, struggle against ourselves. Whether that is a drug or alcohol addiction or a sexual depravity, we are to fight our ill desires. This is the Jihad which we as Muslims are compelled to engage in. If we do not engage in this Jihad, or struggle, we succumb to our desires, whatever they may be which lead to our destruction.

Jihad may also take the form of holy fighting BUT this is only one form of Jihad AND there are very strict and specific conditions to this which are specified in the Quran and the 'hadeeth', or statements of the Prophet. If Muslims are under attack we are permitted to self defend ourselves. It absolutely certainly does not involve taking a vehicle, aircraft, truck or train, and going killing people indiscriminately.

Islam is very simple with one message only; worship God, the most awesome created and sustainer of the universe and follow the teachings of Muhammad, the Messenger of God who taught the message of peace, justice, and respect. We are to prostelyse our faith, spread the word, yes, but there is no compulsion in religion. The Prophet taught the concept of 'Tawheed' for the first thirteen years of his prophethood and nothing else, so important is the single simple message of submitting our will to God and singling out God alone for worship.

We live in a sad time. It is undeniable that some, an extremely tiny minority, of Muslims have misunderstood this message of Islam. But read, do your research and don't take the witch hunting tabloid headlines as gospel. If people really understood the authenticity, simplicity and beauty of Islam they would see how it is able to give purpose to and enrich people's lives.
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Allow me to rephrase. How would YOU resolve the conflict that all Muslims are to practice Jihad against unbelievers every way that they can, up to and including killing them en-mass, and still call yourself peaceful? Because if you call yourself peaceful, then by your own book, you are an apostate and should be killed (the official precedent across all sects of Islam.)
 
Sanji Himura
Still doesn't disqualify the question. Christianity was able to spread its message without warfare 300 500 years before Muhammad
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Huh? Muhammad is around the 8th Century... around the time that the Bede was writing his history of 500 years of war between christians and the pagus, and that was just in one territory ;)
 
TenEightyOne
Huh? Muhammad is around the 8th Century... around the time that the Bede was writing his history of 500 years of war between christians and the pagus, and that was just in one territory ;)
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Nope. Muhammad was born in 570 AD and died in 632 AD.
 
novcze
Yep, question is who is doing this alienating and ostracising from the society ...
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People like mister dog, who jump to the conclusion that the perpetrator is radicalised without any evidence. Using his logic, the man who shot those police officers in Dallas was acting on ISIL's behalf.
 
prisonermonkeys
People like mister dog, who jump to the conclusion that the perpetrator is radicalised without any evidence. Using his logic, the man who shot those police officers in Dallas was acting on ISIL's behalf.
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Like jumping to the conclusion that a camera crew must have provoked being assaulted and run over by a car, as if that's some kind of justification for that kind of reaction from a civilized person or persons? Or taking an innocuous statement, an avenue of investigation that any competent investigator is going to pursue following a mass murder and leaping to the conclusions that someone is "demonizing" an entire community? Is that the kind of leaping to conclusions you are talking about?
 
MCFerocious
Gents, with respect, you really need to understand the meaning of Jihad before 'declaring' a position on it as though one is some kind of authority on it. 10-81 is entirely correct and spot on. Jihad means 'struggle' - as humans we are inclined to sin, and we are compelled to fight against ourselves, struggle against ourselves. Whether that is a drug or alcohol addiction or a sexual depravity, we are to fight our ill desires. This is the Jihad which we as Muslims are compelled to engage in. If we do not engage in this Jihad, or struggle, we succumb to our desires, whatever they may be which lead to our destruction.

Jihad may also take the form of holy fighting BUT this is only one form of Jihad AND there are very strict and specific conditions to this which are specified in the Quran and the 'hadeeth', or statements of the Prophet. If Muslims are under attack we are permitted to self defend ourselves. It absolutely certainly does not involve taking a vehicle, aircraft, truck or train, and going killing people indiscriminately.

Islam is very simple with one message only; worship God, the most awesome created and sustainer of the universe and follow the teachings of Muhammad, the Messenger of God who taught the message of peace, justice, and respect. We are to prostelyse our faith, spread the word, yes, but there is no compulsion in religion. The Prophet taught the concept of 'Tawheed' for the first thirteen years of his prophethood and nothing else, so important is the single simple message of submitting our will to God and singling out God alone for worship.

We live in a sad time. It is undeniable that some, an extremely tiny minority, of Muslims have misunderstood this message of Islam. But read, do your research and don't take the witch hunting tabloid headlines as gospel. If people really understood the authenticity, simplicity and beauty of Islam they would see how it is able to give purpose to and enrich people's lives.
Click to expand...
 
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prisonermonkeys
People like mister dog, who jump to the conclusion that the perpetrator is radicalised without any evidence.
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I thought that he was radicalized and it was well known already.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/french-...-investigation-into-attack-in-nice-1468665303



Exorcet
That is fair in one's own perspective. I'm talking objectively though. There is no objective way to place one person before another. You cannot say that it's objectively good to limit general freedom for any purpose.

I don't see why being personally affected would change my mind. It could, but it would be for bad reasons. Panic and fear. If you're telling other people that they need to change their lives on your behalf, you're doing the same thing the terrorists are doing.
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Yep, but you also need to be reconciled with the fact that mass killing will happen again and you are simply calculating your risks, which are quite low, thus no need to change anything.
I'm not advocating for martial law or something, it's not like politicians can't do anything about it, they just don't want to do anything because that would also meant admitting their mistakes in the past years.




MCFerocious
I will bite my tongue and withhold expression of my considerable discomfort and anger with your quotation from the Quran in this way, in respect only to the victims in France who will be feeling loss right now.
Click to expand...

Would you describe yourself as:

a) highly religious person
b) moderately religious person
c) modestly religious person
 
MCFerocious
Jihad means 'struggle' - as humans we are inclined to sin, and we are compelled to fight against ourselves, struggle against ourselves. Whether that is a drug or alcohol addiction or a sexual depravity, we are to fight our ill desires. This is the Jihad which we as Muslims are compelled to engage in. If we do not engage in this Jihad, or struggle, we succumb to our desires, whatever they may be which lead to our destruction.

Jihad may also take the form of holy fighting BUT this is only one form of Jihad AND there are very strict and specific conditions to this which are specified in the Quran and the 'hadeeth', or statements of the Prophet. If Muslims are under attack we are permitted to self defend ourselves. It absolutely certainly does not involve taking a vehicle, aircraft, truck or train, and going killing people indiscriminately.
Click to expand...

Ok, "sin".... For those that don't share the faith, that doesn't exist. "Holy fighting".... For those that don't share the faith, that's just fighting. "Muslims under attack".... For those that don't share the faith, that may as well just be people under attack - but what is an "attack"? Outside of religion at least, there's a fairly consistent application of what constitutes an attack. Does Islam play by the same rules? Is there any distance between what would generally be considered the minimum justification for killing in "self defence" by secular standards, and the minimum by Islamic standards?

If any of the things that don't exist outside the minds of those within the faith (sin, holiness, etc.) are meant to make up any gap between levels of justification, then we've got a problem.
 
MCFerocious
Mister Dog, above

I will bite my tongue and withhold expression of my considerable discomfort and anger with your quotation from the Quran in this way, in respect only to the victims in France who will be feeling loss right now.

Your quote is entirely out of context and you have used it foolishly and carelessly. This shows how little people are prepared to read, study, gain knowledge of a topic and then speak in an open forum such as this. The quote in the Quran you mention referred specifically to a peace treaty between the Muslims and the non Muslims in Arabia as it was then. The non Muslims broke the terms of the peace treaty and started to attack the Muslims who had respected the agreement and the terms of this peace agreement. The verses you quote relate to permission that God gave, in those specific circumstances only, to go and attack the non Muslims as a means of self defence only due to the non Muslims objective at that time to eradicate the Muslims. Have you read the whole Quran, or at least the whole chapter of this verse? Islam does not allow for the killing of innocent people in indiscriminate ways and a handful of misguided Muslims seem to believe.

For you to quote this in an entirely out of context way and spread the wrong and loose information about Islam is appalling. Shame on you.

If you are interested to learn of a verse which does not require context, which is a general Ayah, or verse, of the Quran, then read Surah Al Maidah, chapter 5, verse 32. Roughly translated this states;

If you save one single life it is as though you have saved the whole of humanity and if you kill an innocent then it is as though you have killed the whole of humanity.

If you read the Quran properly, there are scores of verses which prohibit killing or harming of people. The Quran states that there is no compulsion in religion. Surah Al Kafirun; this is a chapter of the Quran which states exactly this. No ambiguity, no room for 'interpretation'.
Click to expand...

Hi MC. I just wonder if you guys actually read and try to understand your own authority. I know that it is said that the quran can only be interpreted in Arabic, but then 85% of the world don't speak Arabic, and muhammed says it must be in classic Arabic. Even worse.

Also, why don't you guys see the very next verse after 5:32?
5:33 reads:

Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;

Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

So tell me, how does killing one man kill mankind, when the very next verse states you can kill any man if they wage war against Muhammed. Muhammed is dead. The proof is in Medina, yet innocent people are still being killed, including muslims who don't want any part of it. Isis call such muslims hypocrites. See, they have the verses and hadiths to prove it without shying away from the truth of what these books say.

The quran denies every muslim a real relationship with God. With Jesus Christ. Many muslims are seeing this, and my hope is that many more will see it, because this Jesus died for every muslim, and human being. That is proof of His love for you, and more proof that you will live, because He lives. The skeptics are still looking for His dead body, while denying that He walked the earth as well.
 

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