My T500RS "Even Stiffer" Brake Mod

[LogiForce]

I can't really adjust to crappy sim brakes to be honest. Never could.
Those brakes of the Logitech Formula Force GP and the G25 were just horrible to use.
I can get around with the T500 pedals and Clubsport pedals, but neither of them feel right to me.

If I had to say what drives close to my car, it's definitely the VW Golf. I've driven a VW Golf 1.4 diesel when I was going for my drivers license. My car is almost the same as that. Maybe a slightly slower build-up, but it's probably more the brake bias difference in the cars in this case.

The travel is the key for sure. Though I am starting to wonder if it wouldn't be better/easier to just make our own pedals. Or buy a floor mounted professional pedal set and go from there. Cause I doubt we can immitate the real deal at a cheap price, so it might be cheaper to get the real deal instead.

So yeah, for sure I agree with you that a spring loaded system only can get you so far. As well as other solutions like load cells and mountainbike air compressing shocks.

In the end it's all what one likes to use. In the end I just wanted to try your mod out to see where it leads me. I'm sure I will find another use for the parts though.


ps. When I talk about pro-pedals, I mean these: http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/pedal-box-assemblies-balance-bars

 

[spinner]

For me , sim brakes and my cars brakes are two totally different things. Setting up my T500 pedals to imitate my car wouldn't work for me , reason being in the car we have G forces , a real 3D environment , perfect depth perception and that feel "through" the pedal and onto the road surface all helping us determine how much brake is required.
In a sim , we have a bit of FFB through the wheel , a virtual windscreen on a less than windscreen sized screen (99% of us anyway) out into a 2D world......that's it. Through those limited sources we must try to apply the right amount of brake at speeds well above what we would do on public roads ! . Obviously much more difficult so using a replica of my real cars brake pedal would be hopeless for me. It has very little travel and not a lot of progression. (V6 Holden Commodore , think 1600kgs and average power from a 3.8l V6) In the real world its fine though , does the job no problem . 👍

My development of my sim brake started with the TM real feel pad / spring. Then the spring went in the bin. I then started using bits of soft sponge rubber between the pedal arm and the real feel block. Then MrBasher arrived with the urethane bushing. I played with 2 different durometers , tried slicing material away from them to reduce the pressure required and stuck with that for a while until I found some "medium density"* sponge rubber to shove in there. I also drilled another set of holes in the real feel plate to move it back a few mms. The rubber gives more stroke and large amount of progression , both which help me deal with the limitations of our 2D sim world. Add to that , I'm a bit of a gumby behind the wheel in sims. I will never be much better than a mid pack punter so I need all the help I can get !

The brake is now as close to perfect as I could hope for. I can calibrate and adjust the sensitivity in iRacing to give the whole package a fine tune. I have it set so that to lock the wheels , I really need to put some effort in , but to apply a high braking effort in the sim is well within my comfort zone at the pedals and I am able to do it consistently over the length of a race.

It's interesting reading about everyones ideal setup though. People sharing ideas can help all of us in the quest for our own perfect brake pedal

*Not the actual name of the rubber , just a guess.

 

[Hwangm]

Awesome Marcus, thanks for posting the video.

Out of curiosity, are you pushing the pedal down fully each time to start up the wheel to calibrate it?

It's really interesting to see the pedal being used while racing. Thanks for that.

no worries, yes, i do have to press the pedal until it engaged fully once only

 

[mrbasher]

I purchased one of these from Target over the weekend to use for isolating the vibration from the tactile feeback on my rig:

http://www.target.com/p/gofit-fitne...941221#prodSlot=medium_1_42&term=exercise+mat

In cutting it up for the process I thought it might be useful in some way for the brake though I have not tried it... It's about 3/4 inches thick (it says 3/8 but it's thicker, maybe it was a different mat) and has a decent "squish" to it and it bounces back. Two pieces together felt like they may feel nice in the brake... Maybe I'll give it a test and see. The mat is huge and you could probably make a couple hundred pads from it for this lol!

 

[wakuwaku]

Any news about the mat?

 

[mrbasher]

Sorry, not yet. I will check this weekend. I actually haven't even used my rig in 5 days too busy...

 

[oqvist]

Brake feel differ a lot in real life too. It all depend on what references you got before on what you feel feels realistic. For me it´s the CST pedals. Full sized and in overhang position with really long throw felt quite realistic with the standard cars I driven. As for race cars I have hard time believing the brakes in a WTCC, GT, DTM car is sloppy like standard or semi sport car brakes are. I would imagine they are quite a bit stiffer and also have a shorter throw on the brake primarily. But I don´t know sadly

I have the CSP V2 and T500RS. Completly different but equally fast it appears. I have never driven a cars that responds directly like the bushing eqipped T500RS brake do regarding resistance but I have also never driven a car that feels lik a dead fish like the CSP V2 brake does either. I am going to try it without the hydraulic setup and see if it feels better.

the CSP popularity is partly due to it´s very precise. I did a 1:1 with my loved CST pedals and I actually found the CSPs easier to handle due to not being full sized and bulky. It´s kind of the G25 it sacrifices realism for ease of use which helps a lot of people go fast.

It´s also relatively affordable. A lot of thosethat didn´t get the Frex pedals or ECCI or CST got the Clubsports. Of course if you compare to the G25 they are infinitely better pedals. I went from Frex and CST and was still very happy with the Clubsports though they didn´t made a new reference. Now I have T500RS pedals that perform equally overall all things considered too

 

[spinner]

Interesting to see how much stroke the V8 supercars have,

Brilliant footwork by these guys.

 

[JogoAsobi]

Interesting to see how much stroke the V8 supercars have,

Brilliant footwork by these guys.

Great videos, thanks for sharing them!

 

[wakuwaku]

I raced Renault Clio cup cars a few times but the brakes are very hard, felt like I need to push over a small tree, in these cars, I mean little throw and you need to push real hard on them, if you push with normal force the car also brakes but there is not much difference between half brake throw and full brake throw in the car I drove.

 

[oqvist]

Do they take instantly?. Maybe the bushings isnt to far off

 

[wakuwaku]

I Have made my brake stiffer with chirfoot gliders, I sticked them between the spring and pedal, so there is no gap between the peadl and the spring. This way the braks is kinda stiff like the cars I raced. It does have less throw yes but I like it this way.

I want try the bushing mod also because I think this is more solid, the sticked chairfoot gliders wear out and I need replace them often because of the sharpness of the spring.

 

[mrbasher]

I just wanted to put a little update in here.

First, I have not yet had a chance to try the foam mat... I will try to remember to do so when I get home today.

Secondly, I just got off the phone with Brad from RipTide Bushings. He's a great guy and had a lot to offer in the way of expertise as I know only what little I've read online about urethane bushings. RipTide offers quite a selection of different products and durometers. Brad was kind enough to send me some samples to play around with, they have durometers clear down into the 40's! So... I will keep you all posted. I'm excited to test some of these out. I'm hoping that I can come up with some kind of kit that allows more customization of the feel.

 

[JogoAsobi]

Thanks for the update!
The Khiro 73s you kindly sent were a bit stiff for me.
I received the two 60A bushings I ordered from RipTide yesterday.
As soon as I get them installed I will post my impressions.

EDIT: Update

I installed both bushings but still felt the pedal travel was too short.
So I went with one and after a few hours I can say its just about perfect! 👍
I installed it vertically oriented but it worked itself into horizontal position. Still works great!

 

[WildRun]

Inside Sim Racing: "We then look at a line up of new products from Basher Boards."

 

[mrbasher]

Small update...

For the last few days I have suspended orders on my website for these kits as I've been working things out with Brad from RipTide and doing some testing of different bushings.

I have decided to change the kit a little Details soon to follow, but the new kit will give a nice flexible range of "stiffness" The kit will allow for 5 different levels of stiffness. As well, I think I will soon be moving to a piece of carbon fiber for the "plate" This will save me some time on making these as I have to machine the damn things one by one right now. Instead, I can cut out 20 in a matter of minutes on my CNC machine. The price difference there is irrelevant. (on the plate)

I will post more info soon.

 

[VINCE__]

I ended up using one of these rubber heavy machine isolation bushings. Works like a champ and running better lap times than ever.

Looks like this.

I had to notch out my retainer plate to hold it in place. There is about 2 inches of travel before full brake lock. IMO this has given me the best feel after using single and dual durometer 70's up to 88's.

edit: It is more like one of these. Only no hardware in it. It's an industrial a/c unit anti-vibration bushing with a 250kg rating. I found them at work with some other vibration supplies.

 

[RacerXX]

Thanks for the update!
The Khiro 73s you kindly sent were a bit stiff for me.
I received the two 60A bushings I ordered from RipTide yesterday.
As soon as I get them installed I will post my impressions.

EDIT: Update

I installed both bushings but still felt the pedal travel was too short.
So I went with one and after a few hours I can say its just about perfect! 👍
I installed it vertically oriented but it worked itself into horizontal position. Still works great!

That looks like a red "lifesaver" candy. Yummy!

 

[mrbasher]

I've updated this product in an effort to make it a little more versatile. Using different combinations of the bushings the user can now vary the stiffness and hopefully find something that is closer to their liking.

Possible combinations of the bushings:

single 60
60 and 60
60 and 70
single 70
70 and 70

I will also be including some foam in the kit that is sometimes necessary to keep the single bushing configuration in place. The RipTide bushings are often quite slick and can "topple" The foam makes them stay put.


The kit now includes the following:

- Two 70 durometer RipTide urethane bushings
- Two 60 durometer RipTide urethane bushings
- Retaining plate
- Foam

 

[Germinator]

Received these today and I'm disappointed that the retaining plate is Acrylic and not steel as shown in the pictures hence it looks cheap and something which I could have sourced and knocked up myself. But will try out the bush mod nevertheless with it installed. I hope that the plate does not crack!

 

[mrbasher]

Received these today and I'm disappointed that the retaining plate is Acrylic and not steel as shown in the pictures hence it looks cheap and something which I could have sourced and knocked up myself. But will try out the bush mod nevertheless with it installed. I hope that the plate does not crack!

If anyone that has ordered this and would like aluminum instead of whatever I sent, please send me an email using the contact form on my website. I will send you one free of charge.

 

[Germinator]

Impressions and Feel

This is an excellent cost effective mod, and I would highly recommend it to anyone to try out. The feel when pressing on the pedal simulates a progressive break pedal very well, i.e you need to gradually press harder on the pedal to increase break pressure/resistance whilst reducing pedal throw and travel.

Delivery Time and Cost

Ordered on March 30th and arrived today. That's less than a Week! 👍
Cost was £14.27 delivered from the States which is excellent value for money as you get a choice of bushings to use. I find the 60 durometer (Orange Bush) perfect, so I'm not going to bother with the other one.

Quality

Bushings - Excellent. But I will see how these stand the test of time.
Foam - No need to use but it's there should I never need to use a single bush.

Retention Plate - As you know I had issues with this being Acrylic. But after thinking about it and the price I paid I was being foolish. I have been assured that the plate will not break and after using the pedals for a good couple of hours I am now reassured. In fact if you go John Rambo whilst screwing it down it may crack, but the screws do progressively get tighter so the chance of this happening is very slim!

Additionally I think that if the plate was made from steel that the bushings may chamfer over time, with Acrylic there is less chance of this happening. Being OCD I will carbon Vinyl wrap it though, just to give it that extra touch! Which will cost no more than a quid.

Pictures

Areas for Improvement

- The retention plate isn't exactly straight as you can see in the second and third pic (it curls up towards the screw mount hole) Stricter quality control is needed here.

- The retention plate length can be shortened and can be rounded of at the top to follow the contours of the realistic break mod bracket so that it fits WITHIN the realistic break mod bracket not ON TOP of it. Maybe there are variations between the US and UK models?

-The middle of the bracket imo could be routered so it doesn't have any sharp edges.

- The Aesthetics of the retention plate can be better.

Thanks Mr Basher. As I said via PM's there is no need to send out a metal plate, the one in the kit works fine and does it's job well and better imo.

I've left an improvements section for things for you and other members to discuss. I know we've exchanged PM's and this is by no means knocking your mod, but to give genuine criticisms to help improve it and for you to think about. Not only does it help you, but equally it also helps the sim community.

Cheers.

 

[mrbasher]

You're very welcome Germinator and thank you for the review. Though seeing it mounted close up, I think I am going to round those rear corners from here on out so they match the bracket. That will look better.

If anyone has one of these plates break, I will certainly send out a new one at no charge. I have tested the heck out of them, but you just never know.

 

[LogiForce]

Nice review. 👍

The first picture would be nice to showcase the product on the Basherboard site in my opinion.
That way nobody has a "how the heck can this be used/useful" moment when they stare at the bushings.

Though maybe Basher can make a pic himself ones he has made the changes to the plate, else it's again an old picture that doesn't represent exactly what one gets.

 

[mrbasher]

Yes I completely agree. In my haste to get the new kit out there, I only took a photo of the bushings and put them on the site

 

[Gopher04]

Only just caught up on this thread, really like the look of this mod, how do i get hold of your Kit mrbasher?

Also on a side note do you guys feel that the clutch & accelerator pedal could do with some more resistance to them?

 

[Germinator]

Only just caught up on this thread, really like the look of this mod, how do i get hold of your Kit mrbasher?

Also on a side note do you guys feel that the clutch & accelerator pedal could do with some more resistance to them?

http://www.basherboards.com/T500RS-BMK

Personally I think the accelerator is fine, but I will be keeping an eye out on the pneumatic clutch mod John Bodin is making.

 

[Gopher04]

http://www.basherboards.com/T500RS-BMK

Personally I think the accelerator is fine, but I will be keeping an eye out on the pneumatic clutch mod John Bodin is making.

Cheers..and done..👍

I personally would like the same resistance thats in the orignal non modded brake of the T500 in the accelerator.

 

[LogiForce]

Cheers..and done..👍

I personally would like the same resistance thats in the orignal non modded brake of the T500 in the accelerator.

Why don't you see if you can get a heavier compression spring? Though I liked the torsion spring better for the accelerator, which was on the old pedals.

 

[Germinator]

I've tried this for a while now and I love the feel that these give whilst braking.

I would say that this mod offers more consistency whilst braking as you rely more on muscle memory. I can now feel where 80 and 100% breaking is therefore know how much pedal travel I need to apply and hold to achieve it.

However whilst breaking at the lower scale the brake pedal feels spongy, so I'm going to put the higher durometer bushing in and see how that reacts.