North Korea threatens with a nuclear strike.

[YSSMAN]

Well, when you're dealing with millions of starving and unemployed North Koreans, you can't exactly walk away from the country without doing anything. American money would be involved directly or indirectly, guaranteed, simply because our ally South Korea would likely be the major occupying force in a new North Korea. The rough part is whether or not the Chinese would let it happen. They likely do not want an American ally on their border, but we wouldn't want the Chinese on ours either.

It's a huge mess, frankly.

 

[Omnis]

America doesn't need to be involved at all. Once North Korea gives South Korea a good enough excuse to make it politically viable, the south will totally overrun the north and rebuild it themselves. In fact, I would be willing to bet that South Korea and Japan would have some talks and become better friends, possibly doing away with some of the historical Japan-Korea animosity. Everyone wins except for the Kims.

If Fat Uncle Sam rolls through the door, all of a sudden you've got China, Russia, and others a little bit nervous, and possibly not willing to just let us open a new occupation project. Tensions would remain high for a long time before there was true peace.

The Koreans can take care of Korea, and the region will be better off for it.

 

[a6m5]

America doesn't need to be involved at all. Once North Korea gives South Korea a good enough excuse to make it politically viable, the south will totally overrun the north and rebuild it themselves. In fact, I would be willing to bet that South Korea and Japan would have some talks and become better friends, possibly doing away with some of the historical Japan-Korea animosity. Everyone wins except for the Kims.

I'd love that. But like China, both Korean governments has been pushing Anti-Japan propaganda so hard, I think it will take at the very least another generation for the relationships to really start healing. It reminds me of the Middle East. What your ancestor did to my ancestor, and that land used to be ours, and all that. Politicians who push these agendas really should be shot, and I mean that. Go on youtube sometime, and see all the impressionable kids eating the propaganda up, being a complete political puppet/tool. It's quite amusing & depressing. Not one(OK, maybe one, mine) post on there will be about how we should make effort to nicer neighbors. They are all pretty much about we want everybody in your country dead, because we just hate you. What a relief reading the posts on gtplanet!

P.S. Congrats on you becoming the newest Super Moderator! 👍

South Korea could beat back North Korea with barely any outside help on our part. And outside help would certainly come, from almost everyone, if North Korea decided to invade again.

This.

As everyone pointed out, I wouldn't even take BBC's military balance chart into much consideration. Training, equipment, they are all suspect at best on the North Korean side. And I still believe that North Korean Army would collapse faster than the Iraqi Military did in '03. North Korea has controlled their people strictly with fear. Anyone who wouldn't go along were either imprisoned(opposite of the politically correct kinds), or killed. Yeah, I think they'll make efforts pretending to love Kim Jong-il. On top of that, they've been starving. South Korean Military on the other hand, they'd be willing to do anything to protect their way of life. No contest, all around.

...the US has Japan, with the most advanced and best-equipped military on the face of the Earth on a leash. All it needs is NK to rattle a short range missile in Tokyo's direction and Japan can turn the place into ash so sterile that life will never set foot on it again.

They are one of the better military forces out there, but nobody comes near the Americans in this game. Russians are making a comeback, Chinese military is growing as rapidly as their economy has. JSDF possesses newer tech that U.S. allows, but they still aren't allowed to arm themselves with the baddest in most department, most notably & probably most recently the F-22 Raptor. The U.S. didnt' think JSDF was capable of protecting the top-secret stuff on Raptor, and I don't blame them. JMSDF sure were loose in that department with the Aegis technology(minor leak).

JSDF has nice funding, very well trained troops, better than up-to-date equipment, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't rate Top-5 in the world. In Asia, maybe second or third, I don't know how much the Russians have rebuilt in the region.

 

[Keef]

Yeah, who says Japan has "the most advanced military"? Most of what they have that matters has been sourced from the US and Europe. It's a good lot, of course, but it's not like they built it from scratch.

I agree with Omnis that the States have no business in this matter at all. We can't afford it, plain and simple. YSSMAN is crazy for thinking it's the US's responsibility to wipe any of the world's asses. We're so hopped up on steroids we can't even reach our own right now.

 

[a6m5]

I agree with Omnis that the States have no business in this matter at all.

I don't know about "at all". They are allies.

 

[Omnis]

Not to mention, if Korea and Japan can take care of NK, they can darn well take care of themselves. America could withdraw their stationed forces and save a buttload of money every year.

 

[a6m5]

Not to mention, if Korea and Japan can take care of NK, they can darn well take care of themselves. America could withdraw their stationed forces and save a buttload of money every year.

Trust me, the day JSDF land on Korean Peninsula, regardless of for what purpose, they will ban all Gundam anime in South Korea.

Seriously, I think they'd rather lose to the North than to receive help from Japanese troops.

 

[Keef]

I don't know about "at all". They are allies.

And we are a sovereign nation. The best way to stay out of trouble is to keep to yourself. That's not isolationism like all the usual Republicans will tell you; it is non-interventionalism.

 

[a6m5]

And we are a sovereign nation. The best way to stay out of trouble is to keep to yourself. That's not isolationism like all the usual Republicans will tell you; it is non-interventionalism.

We can discuss ideology all day long, but if we are talking real life, it's in the interest of both sides. Financially & politically, they both owe each other too much not to be involved.

Sorry for the double post, but this point is important to the discussion, and I keep forgetting to mention it: China.

They like to act as if they are having tough time keeping control of North Korea, but I don't believe it. They are shrewd, and their ambition is to eventually catch up to the U.S. as the Super Power, then overtake them.

There is no doubt that North Korea is one of the card China is playing in this very big game with the U.S. At least in my mind!

*Second Edit(by me this time): I see I was "edited" for my double post. I double posted not out of laziness, but because the point I was making was too big to be edited onto existing post. Discussion was going real time, and those partners wouldn't have seen what I wrote.

 

[Omnis]

Trust me, the day JSDF land on Korean Peninsula, regardless of for what purpose, they will ban all Gundam anime in South Korea.

Seriously, I think they'd rather lose to the North than to receive help from Japanese troops.

True. You know what I mean though.

 

[Keef]

We can discuss ideology all day long, but if we are talking real life, it's in the interest of both sides. Financially & politically, they both owe each other too much not to be involved.

Settle for that all you want, but it's got to come to an end at some point. They never should have owed each other anything in the first place, but since that's the mess they've gotten themselves into it needs to end, and the only way to end it is to cut it off. It'll be a shock to the system but it would quickly sort itself out once everyone got tired of bitching. These drastic changes are the right thing to do and they must be done, simple as that.

 

[a6m5]

True. You know what I mean though.

I know, but I don't see it happening without the fall of Communist China. Without the Chinese people & the Korean people learning to move on(again, I put this heavily on their governments), Japanese people drop the somewhat condescending attitude, I think the American presence is the only thing that keeps peace in the Far East Asia. Just ask Taiwan!

I just love the Chinese people, and we have so much in common with the Koreans, it's damn shame, maybe unbelievable that there is so much animosity between these fine nations.

Settle for that all you want, but it's got to come to an end at some point. They never should have owed each other anything in the first place, but since that's the mess they've gotten themselves into it needs to end, and the only way to end it is to cut it off. It'll be a shock to the system but it would quickly sort itself out once everyone got tired of bitching. These drastic changes are the right thing to do and they must be done, simple as that.

You might call that settling, but way things are in today's politics, you are talking science fiction. I respect your opinion Keef, I really do. I don't think there is anything wrong with ties with fine, friendly nations though. U.S. do go overboard in that department, I understand that.

 

[Famine]

They are one of the better military forces out there, but nobody comes near the Americans in this game. Russians are making a comeback, Chinese military is growing as rapidly as their economy has. JSDF possesses newer tech that U.S. allows, but they still aren't allowed to arm themselves with the baddest in most department, most notably & probably most recently the F-22 Raptor. The U.S. didnt' think JSDF was capable of protecting the top-secret stuff on Raptor, and I don't blame them. JMSDF sure were loose in that department with the Aegis technology(minor leak).

JSDF has nice funding, very well trained troops, better than up-to-date equipment, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't rate Top-5 in the world. In Asia, maybe second or third, I don't know how much the Russians have rebuilt in the region.

Troop to troop? I'd put Japan in the top three - and only so low because the SAS are the best in the world and because Israel is paranoid. In terms of equipment per average troop, still top three - the UK is slow to roll out new equipment to the rank and file. In terms of military hardware... well, Apaches and F15s are a bit 1990 and they're non-nuclear - but nukes are irrelevant these days since no-one is going to use them except North Korea and they don't have a delivery system.

In conventional warfare, I wouldn't want to be up against Japan. And if I was, I'd like to be the US, the UK or Israel. I certainly wouldn't like to be North Korea - a million troops and eight million reservists is nine million bodies.

 

[Keef]

SAS are the best in the world

Ahem...if you're ever going to live in America that's an opinion that will have to change...

 

[a6m5]

SAS line made me chuckle, too. 👍

Troop to troop? I'd put Japan in the top three - and only so low because the SAS are the best in the world and because Israel is paranoid. In terms of equipment per average troop, still top three - the UK is slow to roll out new equipment to the rank and file. In terms of military hardware... well, Apaches and F15s are a bit 1990 and they're non-nuclear - but nukes are irrelevant these days since no-one is going to use them except North Korea and they don't have a delivery system.

In conventional warfare, I wouldn't want to be up against Japan. And if I was, I'd like to be the US, the UK or Israel. I certainly wouldn't like to be North Korea - a million troops and eight million reservists is nine million bodies.

My biggest concern with the JSDF would be the inexperience. I wouldn't worry about them against North Korea either, but NATO troops? I dunno. Trainings critical in their business, but I'd rank the experience just as high, if not higher. F15's maybe, but Apaches are still new-ish, aren't they?

And Japan's special forces are pretty tiny. Laughable by European, or American standards. I'm pretty certain we had superiority in that department when we still had Ninjas(not the Kawasaki's).

 

[Omnis]

You still have Ninjas. The difference is that now they're invisible and unaccounted for.

 

[a6m5]

You still have Ninjas. The difference is that now they're invisible and unaccounted for.

I do believe in invisible Ninjas, but they are all white today, and they are on black ops(not the video game lol).

 

[Famine]

Ahem...if you're ever going to live in America that's an opinion that will have to change...

Generally, our marines are the same level as the SEALs. The SAS are seriously something else, even if the effects of long-term service are... a little bit of insanity.

My biggest concern with the JSDF would be the inexperience. I wouldn't worry about them against North Korea either, but NATO troops? I dunno. Trainings critical in their business, but I'd rank the experience just as high, if not higher. F15's maybe, but Apaches are still new-ish, aren't they?

And Japan's special forces are pretty tiny. Laughable by European, or American standards. I'm pretty certain we had superiority in that department when we still had Ninjas(not the Kawasaki's).

I doubt JSDF would even have to leave Japan to cripple North Korea. It'd be like one of those boxing cartoon strips, where the huge guy is holding the little guy's head and the little guy can't swing far enough to reach.

 

[Dotini]

It's a huge mess, frankly.

America doesn't need to be involved at all.

The Koreans can take care of Korea, and the region will be better off for it.

I agree with Omnis that the States have no business in this matter at all. We can't afford it, plain and simple.

And we are a sovereign nation. The best way to stay out of trouble is to keep to yourself. That's not isolationism like all the usual Republicans will tell you; it is non-interventionalism.

There is a world of wisdom available when people get realistic, as opposed to ideological. 👍 to those above!

I would add only that the US had the best opportunity to leave Korea to the Koreans at the close of WWII. During the war, Japan had invaded Korea. After the war, the US generally restored conquered lands to antebellum status. In the case of Korea, the US took up the Japanese military positions intact as if they were spoils of war, and ipso facto became an occupying power. This is the unfortunate basis for all that has transpired since.

 

[Keef]

Generally, our marines are the same level as the SEALs. The SAS are seriously something else, even if the effects of long-term service are... a little bit of insanity.

Bollocks. SEAL Team Six and the Army's Delta Force are Tier 1 special operations groups just like SAS. I happen to be American so of course I'm rooting for the home team, but the most I will realistically accept is that they're all equally capable. Cue stubborn American patriotism and general intolerance of ferriners beyond that point.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Please, please don't turn this into a SF debate. I seen enough of those on bodybuilding.com.

@Keef
America can't keep itself to itself. It would destroy the economy and the life that you live today. America needs to keep it export and import partners safe and the rights of passage to these areas and all without escalating the cost of the goods.

Oil, plane sections, clothes, imported food and precious metals are all imports into the US that keep the American society ticking.

 

[Keef]

@Keef
America can't keep itself to itself. It would destroy the economy and the life that you live today. America needs to keep it export and import partners safe and the rights of passage to these areas and all without escalating the cost of the goods.

We need to keep them safe? You're joking, right? And after the world asks us to keep them safe they complain that Americans are arrogant.

America should keep a humble but assertive foreign policy the way it was intended to be. We need to protect ourselves. Everybody else needs to protect themselves.

 

[ExigeEvan]

We need to keep them safe? You're joking, right? And after the world asks us to keep them safe they complain that Americans are arrogant.

America should keep a humble but assertive foreign policy the way it was intended to be. We need to protect ourselves. Everybody else needs to protect themselves.

I don't mean countries per se but those that supply you oil/minerals/food. If that in many instances means a nation then yes.

If America didn't have an over-powering foreign policy it's oil prices would be massive, the cost of living greatly inflated and it's technology producers over-stretched.

 

[Omnis]

I don't mean countries per se but those that supply you oil/minerals/food. If that in many instances means a nation then yes.

If America didn't have an over-powering foreign policy it's oil prices would be massive, the cost of living greatly inflated and it's technology producers over-stretched.

Sorry, but that simply wouldn't be the case. The only people that would hurt would be the MIC.

 

[Keef]

If America didn't have an over-powering foreign policy it's oil prices would be massive, the cost of living greatly inflated and it's technology producers over-stretched.

"If North Korea didn't have an over-powering foreign policy its oil prices would be massive, the cost of living inflated, and its technology producers over-stretched."

Wait, what? You're advocating total domination. Dude, if you want to be American all you have to do is move here.

MIC.

As in "military-industrial complex" for the people who can't be bothered to Wiki like I just did.

 

[Dotini]

In a potentially related development, China and Russia have washed their hands of the dollar in terms of mutual trade; http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2010-11/24/content_11599087.htm

 

[GT Pro]

 

[arvore]

^^^^^👍

That's what the romans thought of these guys:

​

Look where they are now...

 

[Dotini]

Look where they are now...

It's a tempting but classic error to underestimate the enemy. According to numerous persons of all nationalities who have actually met him and subsequently been debriefed by the CIA, Kim Jong-il is a very intelligent man.

Older readers and students of history will recall the Cuban Missile Crisis. Khruschev was playing two tracks, one warlike, one peaceful. Kennedy chose wisely against the advice of his Admirals and Generals, and the world was spared war.

Those in the know think Kim is likewise playing two tracks. What is likely to happen, assuming everything goes according to the Pollyanna script, is the US and South Korea will react, as they must, to the latest provocation, but shortly settle down to go back into six-party talks. Those in the know are firm in the hope, at least, that Kim wants economic integration with the rest of the world.

 

[Keef]

North Korea could definitely do better for itself by integrating into the world economy. It wouldn't make any sense to sacrifice it all with war.