Potato...

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There's multiple ways to skin a cat (I hate that saying, I love cats) and though I'm sure there's more nuance than what I'm about to say, generally... this debate appears to come down to two differing driving styles. There are people who love understeer and there are people who love oversteer. Understeer drivers want a stable predictable car that turns the entire track into a series of consecutive drag strips. Oversteer drivers want a car that handles fluidly on the limits of control on every corner.

I want a game that allows for all real world driving styles. The subdued throttle on exit and excessive front wheel bite are both issues that make oversteer driving less fun in this game. Otherwise, I like the 1.39 update and corner entry has drastically improved from it. But I totally dislike the lack of fidelity in the torque of the car on exit and how it wants to edge to the outside like a jet ski even if the car is balanced and halfway across the track on it's exit line.


There’s a lot of truth to what you have posted but I have some disagreement also. I explained my take enough. I am bowing out of this thread at this time.
I can’t be getting carried away.
 
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Or F40, or Stratos...
Or any other MR/RR car with higher power to weight ratio, either tuned or stock. Some aliens actually used those cars to practise as they were one of the hardest cars to drive (Stock BTR being the worst IIRCC). Anyway, listing different cars doesn't change the fact how unrealistically you could drive them at/over the limit; breaking track records in 45° slides, only to maximise velocity while avoiding understeer... :indiff:

My initial point wasn't that there's no difficult cars to drive in GT series.

Anyway i did edit my earlier posts...
 
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There's multiple ways to skin a cat (I hate that saying, I love cats) and though I'm sure there's more nuance than what I'm about to say, generally... this debate appears to come down to two differing driving styles. There are people who love understeer and there are people who love oversteer. Understeer drivers want a stable predictable car that turns the entire track into a series of consecutive drag strips. Oversteer drivers want a car that handles fluidly on the limits of control on every corner.

I want a game that allows for all real world driving styles. The subdued throttle on exit and excessive front wheel bite are both issues that make oversteer driving less fun in this game. Otherwise, I like the 1.39 update and corner entry has drastically improved from it. But I totally dislike the lack of fidelity in the torque of the car on exit and how it wants to edge to the outside like a jet ski even if the car is balanced and halfway across the track on it's exit line.

That's what I think as well.

As saomeone who avoids FF cars like the plague, I gotta say the last ptach took me a bit of joy from the game. The cars are so bland on exit that I feel like I'm driving FF cars.

Well, I hope PD tweaks it soon.
 
You had to set the front downforce to minimum and the rear to maximum. It should and would have flipped the car irl with that setup but because the physics engine didn't allow for it you got wheelies. Drag race cars have extra "training wheels" behind the car to help stop that exact scenario.

So GT2 and GT3 had more realistic reasons for wheelies than GT Sport does. That's awesome :lol:
 
@ sdi_03 // After reading your aggressive answer. I read again my question to you and assumed that it could have been misunderstood, in the form and tone. I apologize for that. I'm not here to fight, but to discuss and learn from people who actually drive IRL.
My question was genuine, but not so well formulated.
I will re-write it: Could you link me a video of you driving hard one of you car? It is a simple question.
And It literally doesn't mean: You sire are saying wrong assumption, I want you to miserably fail at proving me that 1.39 physics is great because you lack skill to really judge from your IRL seat time how a car truly behave at 100% potential....

The answer I was waiting was not about the fact that you own a Porsche (which is slowly driven on the Nordschleife and show nothing about the limit of the car), that you began go kart at 6 years old (same for me) or that you built a 800 HP car or made drift competition. And you know better than me that drift car setup are way different than road cars or GT3 cars, and that building is own drift car is not related to the ability of pushing a car to 100% potential.

In fact, your post above my bad asked question highly interest me. Because in fact I mostly agree it, and I wanted to witness some real driving action from someone who actually know what he is talking about.
BTW, I scrolled and watch your cars related videos on your channel and find the one that deserved to be link:




This one is really interesting because it proves your points and mines. Understeer isn't mandatory, and you can't do weird inputs and not be punished by them. And GTSport should reflect that.

About my seat time, I already told my humble experiences few pages sooner. I will add that I had the chance to be coached by a GT3 Pro driver at the wheel of a VW Scirroco R in 2010. I have a lot more thing to learn IRL to push my cars close to 100% potential. Drifting is one of those, which is going to be approached later that year (October) with a professional racer as a coach.

If you have nothing to do at work, here is my YT channel. There is really nothing interesting beside chasing a Porsche at le Mans, blowing the engine of my S2000 and some slides under the rain with a FWD. There is lot of guys pushing their cars on YT, my channel is here for my friends and family, there is nothing to brag about.

At my local track, I'm 3.5 seconds slower (2 minutes laps) than Soheil Ayari in the same car and same tires.
The only difference is Ohlins adjustable coilover in the Megane 3RS 275 he droves, and standard CUP ones for mine (this difference doesn't count for more than a tenth or two, because the track is dead flat and I was able to deal with understeer by adjusting the tires pressure instead of tweaking the Ohlins coilovers). It's an enormous gap that will never be shorten more than 1.5 seconds with practices and optimal grip and power parameters... I know where are my limits.





Going back to the thread:

I saw the video of David Perel reviewing the 1.39 update. He is driving an Fr car, not the most affected by new physics, and he is dealing with the understeer by delaying his entry. I never said that the new physics is for arcade racer. Because every parameters are still there. In an arcade game, the number of them would be lesser. And, in the end, the best drivers will adapt and stay at the top of their games.
And, as I already said, after this update, some cars are still decent to drive, but driving some other is not just logical in term of what kind of inputs you should apply to drive them, and how they should reacts to them.


David also uploaded this video:

He explains a thing I'm completely agree with: You are faster with a lightly understeering car because the is easier to drive close to the limit. And, from my personal experience, I tuned my S2000 to be understeery at the limit on throttle during mid-speed and highspeed corners. Doing so, the car tells you when you are too fast in a bend by a light understeer, just slightly release the throttle, the weight shift a little to the front, you regain front grip and keep the good racing line. Having an oversteery car could badly end if you don't know what you are doing. Because this is the rear which tell you that you are too fast. So you must know how to deal with happy tail rear, which I'm not comfortable with, IRL, for the moment.

But in GTSport, some cars, which are prone to be oversteering queen IRL, are now completely easy to drive with input that would put you in the barrier at your local track.

What PD did wrong, is to change the physics instead of the standard setup of the cars. But, changing the physics is less time consuming than track down and change the wrongs standard setup of some cars in the previous iteration of the game.


Cheers everyone.
 
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Understeer isn't just down to a lack of grip on the front of the car. Centripetal force and momentum are also acting against you. A car would much rather continue in a straight line than make a turn. Watching the cars in motion during the replays they do seem more realistic now and the weight is portrayed more accurately. Weight wants to continue in it's current direction and even the lighest cars are still pretty damn heavy.
 
Since I am now a reader only if this.
For those wishing to describe their experience more specifically please take a look here. Just saying all cars understeer or oversteer is not specific.
Where? On exit? Entry? Off throttle? Which cars are affected?
Please take the time to read these several paragraphs maybe they will help make communications more clear by getting everyone using standard terms.
https://www.windingroad.com/articles/blogs/speed-secrets-the-handling-debrief-process/

Thanks guys.
 
My final batch of testing with a few more road cars (all stock non BOP tune) and Gr.B.

NSX-R 92 @ Tsukuba (SH) - understeer everywhere and numb steering feel. Very difficult to get any rotation. Previously this car was very close to its mod counterpart in AC & rF1. The NSX being my favourite car this is very disappointing.

Integra @ Tsukuba (SH) - I was expecting lift off oversteer with the new physics, but it's still nowhere to be found. Torque steer on power seems to be reduced slightly, making it easier than before to get out of corners. Again, driving just feels numb.

Veneno @ Tsukuba (SH) - same as before really. Front still feels very light and difficult to rotate on power.

Vulcan @ Tsukuba (RH) - power oversteer on exit slightly easier to manage than before. Otherwise still suffering from lack of downforce.

LaFerrari @ Tsukuba (SH) - still a mess. This car is beautiful to drive in AC. Very playful and manageable despite its power figures. Sure it will still bite if you're not careful, but you can tell it's your fault in most cases. In GT this car is just lacking the grip and suppleness of the chassis. I was expecting on throttle behaviour to be better post update but nope. Ferrari should be ashamed of how this car is portrayed in the game.

Gr.B Lancer @ Tsukuba (SS) - tried with power split 50:50, 40:60 and 10:90. At 50:50 and 10:90 it's roughly the same as before, but at 40:60 previously you can use the throttle to rotate the car on power. Now the front just plows. Kills all the fun with Gr.B cars on tarmac.

Gr.B Lancer @ Colorado Springs & Sardegna (Dirt) - tried power split 50:50 and 40:60. As above, power understeer is much worse than before. GT rally physics has never been the greatest, but before you can pull a nice 4 wheel drift if you get a right angle on entry and balance the throttle/brake/steering throughout the corner. Now as soon as you breathe on the throttle the front just washes out. Rally has just become even more useless in this game.

To sum up, taking into account my previous 2 tests, I would say on balance I still prefer the old physics 90% of the time. With new physics, the cars that will benefit most are FR Gr.3 and Gr.4, the old Gr.2 trio and the GR Supra road car. Everything else is just a lifeless shell of its former self. Racing wise it's not going to make much difference. The fastest drivers always adapt and it changes nought to the power rankings. But for the rest who enjoy driving, it ruins the experience and character of each car. I was even planning to run every car at the Nordschleife, stock, just to experience them all as pure as possible (a tradition which I also did in GTPSP/GT5/GT6). Now there's no point.
 
Understeer isn't just down to a lack of grip on the front of the car. Centripetal force and momentum are also acting against you. A car would much rather continue in a straight line than make a turn. Watching the cars in motion during the replays they do seem more realistic now and the weight is portrayed more accurately. Weight wants to continue in it's current direction and even the lighest cars are still pretty damn heavy.
Yeah it definitely feels like the cars want to continue on a straight trajectory. It's the same principle that acts upon you when a car stops: your body wants to keep moving forward. The engine wants to do the exact same thing and transferring the forward energy into lateral energy takes a lot of effort.
 
The fastest drivers always adapt and it changes nought to the power rankings. But for the rest who enjoy driving, it ruins the experience and character of each car. I was even planning to run every car at the Nordschleife, stock, just to experience them all as pure as possible (a tradition which I also did in GTPSP/GT5/GT6). Now there's no point.

Finally some sanity...FFS PD, take a stand for the better.
 
And posts like these add quality discussion.

I’m just a guy who likes Gran Turismo, knows it has strengths and weaknesses, but understands making racing sims to be accessible to the masses is not an easy thing.

But hey we know more than the people who make them games, work with car companies, racers, and research stuff to make a better quality product. Right?

Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong.

I just find it funny that no matter what PD does physics wise, they get burned at the stake. Meanwhile the game is two years on and they still bother to tweak the physics to make it better if possible.

But we know better just by watching YouTube videos of race cars in their elements.

Seriously, get over yourselves.

With this new physics I can see why PD probably went this route: to make sport mode a bit easier to handle for more people, making them have more confidence to try their hand in it.
 
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Tantrum-filed opinions from individuals that undermine the credibility of the sport that I love, is indicative of what's holding back the GT franchise. There are many, and I mean perhaps the majority of fans that grew up with GT, that do not comprehend or respect what it means to RACE. I do not know how it came to be--and I don't care. If you have the nerve to show up to a competitive event, understand your context and respect those that take the time to explain.

I don't know how else to put it. There is ample evidence from pompous, arrogant and down-right ignorance individuals from this forum about what is important to consider when it comes to challenging each other's skill on the limit. What I have seen so far in this exchange from those that have readily exposed their limitations, is that this community needs a reality check.

To be fair, some have been generous, and encouraging to others, offering dialogue as opposed to spins and condemnation. But others, just cannot see the light, no matter the efforts by those that want to help elevate progress. To those that are worthy, I extend my appreciation and hope that future incarnations from PD affords us a realms where driver skill may shine.

If you are fond of PD/GTS then I for one want you to offer them important criticism (about changes in physics/BoP/etc.) that helps them achieve superior status. Help them find those areas of opportunity, critique where they are deficient and offer suggestions that will improve their standing verses their competition. This is ultimately what will drive them forward (from your critique) even if PD is unaware of how progress really happens--reality check, PD...listen to your fans, whether you agree or disagree.

And my last words are to those that are faithful to what we have today. With all the failures and shortcomings, you are happy and content, nothing is of bother...to you I say, nothing that you express will inspire any progress, because you see no point in change...and this will lead PD to failure.
 
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the cars feel and drive more realistic.
st-croix-jpg.824843

Totally.
 
If a person loves Motorsport and has real understanding and experience with it they know that shared knowledge and experience is valuable, because it takes a lot of experience and talent and knowledge (and dough lol) to succeed.

It’s truly fun for experienced folks to share war stories and bring up the next generation.

None of that is done via exclusion.

Does it do any good at all to call for a ‘PURGE’ ?

If a person has knowledge would they wish to share and help others or call for a ‘PURGE’ of the so called ‘WEAK’

Those reading can make up their own minds regarding these issues.

You can listen to folks recommending things like this here...
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/ul...d=Google_t&gclid=COXe5Pqu2eICFUmewAodZs8Dog#/
or you can be told to purge yourself from gt sport. Bentley is a good dude. I dunno if I am breaking a rule by posting this, but imo you will get better and faster at GT Sport by reading this than watching 300 you tube videos.

Which person writings intent is positive and which is toxic?
 
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@ sdi_03 // After reading your aggressive answer. I read again my question to you and assumed that it could have been misunderstood, in the form and tone. I apologize for that. I'm not here to fight, but to discuss and learn from people who actually drive IRL.
My question was genuine, but not so well formulated.
I will re-write it: Could you link me a video of you driving hard one of you car? It is a simple question.
And It literally doesn't mean: You sire are saying wrong assumption, I want you to miserably fail at proving me that 1.39 physics is great because you lack skill to really judge from your IRL seat time how a car truly behave at 100% potential....

The answer I was waiting was not about the fact that you own a Porsche (which is slowly driven on the Nordschleife and show nothing about the limit of the car), that you began go kart at 6 years old (same for me) or that you built a 800 HP car or made drift competition. And you know better than me that drift car setup are way different than road cars or GT3 cars, and that building is own drift car is not related to the ability of pushing a car to 100% potential.

In fact, your post above my bad asked question highly interest me. Because in fact I mostly agree it, and I wanted to witness some real driving action from someone who actually know what he is talking about.
BTW, I scrolled and watch your cars related videos on your channel and find the one that deserved to be link:




This one is really interesting because it proves your points and mines. Understeer isn't mandatory, and you can't do weird inputs and not be punished by them. And GTSport should reflect that.

About my seat time, I already told my humble experiences few pages sooner. I will add that I had the chance to be coached by a GT3 Pro driver at the wheel of a VW Scirroco R in 2010. I have a lot more thing to learn IRL to push my cars close to 100% potential. Drifting is one of those, which is going to be approached later that year (October) with a professional racer as a coach.

If you have nothing to do at work, here is my YT channel. There is really nothing interesting beside chasing a Porsche at le Mans, blowing the engine of my S2000 and some slides under the rain with a FWD. There is lot of guys pushing their cars on YT, my channel is here for my friends and family, there is nothing to brag about.

At my local track, I'm 3.5 seconds slower (2 minutes laps) than Soheil Ayari in the same car and same tires.
The only difference is Ohlins adjustable coilover in the Megane 3RS 275 he droves, and standard CUP ones for mine (this difference doesn't count for more than a tenth or two, because the track is dead flat and I was able to deal with understeer by adjusting the tires pressure instead of tweaking the Ohlins coilovers). It's an enormous gap that will never be shorten more than 1.5 seconds with practices and optimal grip and power parameters... I know where are my limits.





Going back to the thread:

I saw the video of David Perel reviewing the 1.39 update. He is driving an Fr car, not the most affected by new physics, and he is dealing with the understeer by delaying his entry. I never said that the new physics is for arcade racer. Because every parameters are still there. In an arcade game, the number of them would be lesser. And, in the end, the best drivers will adapt and stay at the top of their games.
And, as I already said, after this update, some cars are still decent to drive, but driving some other is not just logical in term of what kind of inputs you should apply to drive them, and how they should reacts to them.


David also uploaded this video:

He explains a thing I'm completely agree with: You are faster with a lightly understeering car because the is easier to drive close to the limit. And, from my personal experience, I tuned my S2000 to be understeery at the limit on throttle during mid-speed and highspeed corners. Doing so, the car tells you when you are too fast in a bend by a light understeer, just slightly release the throttle, the weight shift a little to the front, you regain front grip and keep the good racing line. Having an oversteery car could badly end if you don't know what you are doing. Because this is the rear which tell you that you are too fast. So you must know how to deal with happy tail rear, which I'm not comfortable with, IRL, for the moment.

But in GTSport, some cars, which are prone to be oversteering queen IRL, are now completely easy to drive with input that would put you in the barrier at your local track.

What PD did wrong, is to change the physics instead of the standard setup of the cars. But, changing the physics is less time consuming than track down and change the wrongs standard setup of some cars in the previous iteration of the game.


Cheers everyone.


Ok, well thanks for clearing that up. And sorry that I assumed that you are some keyboard warrior asking stupid questions. :cheers:
That channel is my friends, he filmed the nordsleife video. In that vid you found, is infact my old 300ZX Z32 that my friend bought from me.
And his first trackday with the car (if I remember right). That car was set up on grip, not drift.

Now, sorry to dissapoint you, no I dont have more videos for you.
Regarding your own vids, those just show guy learning to drive. Nothing wrong with that, infact it's always good to see people try to learn how to be fast in a car. 👍

One wierd thing is, I dont have more understeer in 1:39?? Infact it feels like less understeer now. So why is this?
Been complaning a lot about that understeer before this update.
 
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Incoherent, sorry I tried but I cannot follow. Try making a concise point. It's one thing to show up on track and be competitive, it's another to pound on a keyboard and make a sorry attempt at communicating a thought.

Apologies, logic and rationality is sort of important when it comes to credibility.
 
In the real world, the sensations that are physically alive at this moment at the tires (yes, only the minute 4 patches) is the dominant force that have informed our intuition of what is REAL at the limit. So, I ask once again for all those that are evaluating the underlying physics--how faithfully is this moment in time translated in GTS?
Quite. The car is relatively softly sprung, going through a high-G corner with a dip in it, and the tyres' deforming can be clearly seen while one side of the underbody scrapes on the tarmac. No, it isn't an F1 car and the track isn't Suzuka which probably is enough for you to disregard it entirely because you've decided that the physics are no good, but that doesn't change the fact that things like the one in the picture already happen in GT Sport.

20190608105549.jpg
 
Returning to the Aventador understeer topic I wrote about earlier.
The car in its default setting is purely horrible to drive with softer tyre compound (also with harder tyres) and it is hard to believe that the car would work that way in real life, just dangerously understeery.
I tuned the car to replicate, at least visually, the real life counterpart:

It feels good now.
So yes, something is wrong with the new physics (remembering the wheelie incidents) but maybe with this car the default setup is the bigger problem.
 
After one week of trying different cars, due to the Manufacturer choice, I have to say that I'm starting to appreciate some changes in the physics engine. The braking got definitely better, and I feel much more weight transfer. I think the constant understeer out of a corner is because, pre 1.39, I was carrying way too speed in a corner. Now it's more slow in, fast out. The non existent oversteer, by the way, needs to be worked out. It's not snappy as it was before the update, but surely applying 100 % throttle with full steering lock and 600 bhp will give you a nice spin. Now, I must say that the changes in my opinion are both good and bad. I hope that PD gets all the physics in the right direction.
 
@dabz343 I understand your frustration, but as someone explained earlier in the thread, I think because they are Japanese, they will want to figure out things for themselves, regardless of the time it takes or the number of incorrect paths that are taken to go forwards. I encountered this a few times before myself IRL.

Part of the problem is those that continue to compete in FIA, because if they chose not to take part for all the reasons you have explained in this thread, then the problems would perhaps be addressed more quickly. You can only assume that many are actually really enjoying the enforced understeer, including many Super stars :). I'll try a car selected for an event for a few corners, and as soon as it goes straight on with minimum driving input, I'll just not bother and not waste any more time unlearning all the things that has taken me years to refine.
 
It's the weight distribution of the car as well. As I've noted before in this thread, if you compare the Gr.3 GT-R with the Gr.3 911, for example, to compare a front weight bias car to a rear weight bias car, the effect on rear wheel traction seems rather excessive. But I've never driven cars anything like that in real life, maybe someone who has can comment on whether it's correct for the GT-R to be able to spin its wheels in 3rd coming out of a tight hairpin while you can floor it in 2nd in the 911 with no wheelspin? Does the different weight distribution really make that much difference in real life?
FWIW, weight distribution isn't the only factor here. The GT-R's turbo-charged engine produces more torque at lower RPMs (at least IRL, max torque starts at ~3000 RPM).
 
And posts like these add quality discussion.

I’m just a guy who likes Gran Turismo, knows it has strengths and weaknesses, but understands making racing sims to be accessible to the masses is not an easy thing.

But hey we know more than the people who make them games, work with car companies, racers, and research stuff to make a better quality product. Right?

Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong.

I just find it funny that no matter what PD does physics wise, they get burned at the stake. Meanwhile the game is two years on and they still bother to tweak the physics to make it better if possible.

But we know better just by watching YouTube videos of race cars in their elements.

Seriously, get over yourselves.

With this new physics I can see why PD probably went this route: to make sport mode a bit easier to handle for more people, making them have more confidence to try their hand in it.

Ironic and wrong. You can go back to previous physics changes that were well recieved by the community. Most people aren't here criticizing for the sake of criticizing. You on the other hand, came here to criticize those who have some complaints about the update without adding anything to the conversation. Great contribution to the "quality discussion", indeed.

You can listen to David Perel's thoughts on the update, who drives GT3 cars for a living and who also criticized the excessive understeed introduced with 1.39, among other things. In fact, you don't need to be a pro racing driver to know how a car behaves. You just need to have experience driving cars and some grasp of how physics works - being a pro helps.
 
Ironic and wrong. You can go back to previous physics changes that were well recieved by the community. Most people aren't here criticizing for the sake of criticizing. You on the other hand, came here to criticize those who have some complaints about the update without adding anything to the conversation. Great contribution to the "quality discussion", indeed.

You can listen to David Perel's thoughts on the update, who drives GT3 cars for a living and who also criticized the excessive understeed introduced with 1.39, among other things. In fact, you don't need to be a pro racing driver to know how a car behaves. You just need to have experience driving cars and some grasp of how physics works - being a pro helps.

I added to the conversation like a couple of pages ago saying physics update is on right track, just needs some tweaking. I voted for slightly better.

But ok.

People didn’t complain about the cars being too loose and unbalanced at all before...
 
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