Racism - Ignored?

[Blaze_409]

A racist joke generally doesn't end with the phrase "I'm kidding" because it's never taken seriously to begin with. But the fact that they're making a racist joke to begin with shows they're not really being racist. If you've been offended, chances are you've taken the joke to seriously.

*facepalm* this might be where the problem lays. telling someone not to take it seriously sometimes make certain people even more upset. perhaps the person could just avoid the joke in the first place?

 

[Zenith]

There comes a time when people need to stop being offended by something they never had to deal with. Whether racism has reached this is debatable. Personally, the only people I've ever noticed getting offended by race jokes are the oversensitive kind that enjoy the unnecessary drama.

 

[dautolover]

Well of course it still exists, a fact I acknowledged, but not nearly as much as it used to (Back when blacks had to sit at the back of the bus and what not).
Can I have an example of how the media represents minorities in what you consider to be a racist way? I may be completely overshooting this, but I never bothered to really take notice since the only thing I ever watch is Top Gear. (And sometimes the news).

Uh, let's start with Top Gear's constant poking of other ethnicities. The whole controversy regarding Mexicans? They tried to downplay it, saying that it's about British humor. Seems British humor is really all about generalizing and grouping people together into crude categories, though.

Have you seen True Lies? I was watching it the other day, and it reinforced negative images of Arabs/Muslims.

24 does this as well.

Films with a white person as the protagonist tend to put the only black and Latino people as gangsters. Gone in 60 seconds. Training Day. Heck even Bruce Almighty. Notice the only Latinos are the gangsters that beat poor old Jim Carrey (or God). A bunch of films centered on Latinos were also released in the 80s (American Me, for instance) that typified the Chicano community as a gang infested community. Gender also played a role, because most gangsters were, coincidentally, children of single-mothers.

There was a film in the 90s called Candyman. It reinforced the image of the white woman being sexually chased by a deviant black man.

Asian people? I've seen too many martial movies with too many Asian people. Apparently, the US thinks all they do is practice martial arts.

Since everyone watches TV and watches movies, these are the images we learn. And people who never had the chance to live with other people of color are the ones that internalize them the most easily.

How so?

By imposing the views they have of me and my race on me.

A racist joke generally doesn't end with the phrase "I'm kidding" because it's never taken seriously to begin with. But the fact that they're making a racist joke to begin with shows they're not really being racist. If you've been offended, chances are you've taken the joke to seriously.

You don't make sense! It all goes to my slap example. If I slap you, and you get pissed, I can say you're getting too serious. But maybe I'm wrong. If I tell you that the joke has made me uncomfortable, then that should be a sign for you to stop. Again, it's called respect. And it makes you a very virtuous person being able to reflect not just on your own personal views and reactions, but on the views and reactions of others. Cause it's not all about you and your "funny" joke. It's about who you're making fun of.

Why do I have to make decisions like that as a kid? Why do I have to be even put in this position where majority of the people thinks its ok to make a joke and then try to laugh it off if I claim I am offended. I was not a 50 year old man. I was only say 12 or 13 years old....Kids always hide things. What did you expect from me. How many 12 year olds did you know that marched around "standing up for themselves in a predominantly (forgive me :/) Caucasian school. Nowadays no one makes those jokes and I won't tolerate it either. Most kids don't know how to deal with these delicate issues of race. The fact that I have to go out of my way just to be treated with some decency in a middle school is the problem itself. Don't try to change me. Change the people around me

That's because I didn't know your age... and it's good you won't tolerate it either.

There comes a time when people need to stop being offended by something they never had to deal with. Whether racism has reached this is debatable. Personally, the only people I've ever noticed getting offended by race jokes are the oversensitive kind that enjoy the unnecessary drama.

No one enjoys being the subject of a joke, especially when that joke is all about a person's race...

 

[Zenith]

No one enjoys being the subject of a joke, especially when that joke is all about a person's race...

Of course nobody likes to be the butt of any joke. Nevertheless, it's still an absolutely essential to be able to take it and keep your self esteem if you want to... you know... talk to and interact with other human beings.

What truly offends a person and what things cause them to act like they are offended or convince themselves that they should be offended are often very different things.

 

[TheCracker]

Films with a white person as the protagonist tend to put the only black and Latino people as gangsters. Gone in 60 seconds. Training Day. Heck even Bruce Almighty. Notice the only Latinos are the gangsters that beat poor old Jim Carrey (or God). A bunch of films centered on Latinos were also released in the 80s (American Me, for instance) that typified the Chicano community as a gang infested community. Gender also played a role, because most gangsters were, coincidentally, children of single-mothers.

I can think of many more instances where white people are the gangsters or bad guys.

Blame hollywood's dumbing down and reliance on using stereotypes over developing more complex character portrayals.

 

[Liquid]

Die Hard With A Vengence is an interesting example.

I can't find the correct scene online but it's the bit with the suitcase bomb in the park. Basically Bruce Willis is gets angry with Samuel Jackson and Jackson 'expects' Willis to call him a n****r because he's angry and taunts him to do so. Bruce Willis then turns round and says;

"A**hole! Huh, how d'ya like that, a**hole? Do you have a problem with me [Zeus]? Have you got some problem? I tell you what your problem is; you're a racist, you don't like me because I'm white. Is that it, huh? Have I 'oppressed' you [Zeus]? Have I oppressed you and your people somehow?"

And if we're talking film stereotypes, this film is classic English guy plays the baddie.

 

[Scaff]

A racist joke generally doesn't end with the phrase "I'm kidding" because it's never taken seriously to begin with. But the fact that they're making a racist joke to begin with shows they're not really being racist. If you've been offended, chances are you've taken the joke to seriously.

There comes a time when people need to stop being offended by something they never had to deal with. Whether racism has reached this is debatable. Personally, the only people I've ever noticed getting offended by race jokes are the oversensitive kind that enjoy the unnecessary drama.

I'm writing this on behalf of my wife, who is half Scots and half Indian and grew up facing racist abuse in school, in the street and in places of work.

You have no damn idea what the hell you are going on about at all, face a few decades of racial abuse and then come back and tell me I'm just not getting the joke. If its designed to belittle me, make me feel inferior and is dressed up as a joke, that doesn't change the racist content of it.

These 'jokes' allow an attitude of inferiority based on skin colour to be the 'norm', and that is totally unacceptable.

Those of you who believe that this is no longer a problem should consider the following. When you have had to comfort and reassure your children that they are not 'stupid', 'worthless' and that they do not need to "🤬 off back home" because they have a different skin colour to others in school, once you have done that (as I have had to) come back and tell me its a joke or that it doesn't exist any more.

In other words, everyone must have freedom of speech.

Even if that leads to hate crimes and the persecution of a minority?

I can think of many more instances where white people are the gangsters or bad guys.

White people also get to play a wide range of other characters and roles, something that doesn't generally happen to other ethnicities.

Yes you do have the odd exceptions, such as Will Smith, but they are just that exceptions.

Blame hollywood's dumbing down and reliance on using stereotypes over developing more complex character portrayals.

Oh I do.


Scaff

 

[Nessy]

I'm writing this on behalf of my wife, who is half Scots and half Indian and grew up facing racist abuse in school, in the street and in places of work.

You have no damn idea what the hell you are going on about at all, face a few decades of racial abuse and then come back and tell me I'm just not getting the joke. If its designed to belittle me, make me feel inferior and is dressed up as a joke, that doesn't change the racist content of it.

These 'jokes' allow an attitude of inferiority based on skin colour to be the 'norm', and that is totally unacceptable.

Those of you who believe that this is no longer a problem should consider the following. When you have had to comfort and reassure your children that they are not 'stupid', 'worthless' and that they do not need to "🤬 off back home" because they have a different skin colour to others in school, once you have done that (as I have had to) come back and tell me its a joke or that it doesn't exist any more.

Scaff

This ^ basically.

Iv'e not yet had the chance to read the whole thread, but racism is very much still alive.. and is no real joking matter.

I'm white (British)/ black (afro Caribbean) and have experienced racism focused towards me and onto others, i wouldn't say my perspective is unique.. but it is slightly unusual in the fact that i look just like many other white guys, (very light skinned, fairly straight hair), which has allowed me in past jobs and work places, to fly under the radar (so to speak) and experience colleagues attitudes towards people of different ethnicities, and quite frankly, a lot of people hide their disgusting racist attitudes... but once backs are turned and amongst their peers, they openly discriminate against people of ethnicity... iv'e seen it on more than 1 ocassion and no doubt will see it again.

 

[Zenith]

You have no damn idea what the hell you are going on about at all, face a few decades of racial abuse and then come back and tell me I'm just not getting the joke. If its designed to belittle me, make me feel inferior and is dressed up as a joke, that doesn't change the racist content of it.

These 'jokes' allow an attitude of inferiority based on skin colour to be the 'norm', and that is totally unacceptable.

Those of you who believe that this is no longer a problem should consider the following. When you have had to comfort and reassure your children that they are not 'stupid', 'worthless' and that they do not need to "🤬 off back home" because they have a different skin colour to others in school, once you have done that (as I have had to) come back and tell me its a joke or that it doesn't exist any more.

Scaff

I never said that racism doesn't exist, I never said racism in itself is a joke.

This is why I posted something along the lines of "In my experiences" in nearly every post. With something like racism, someone's view on the matter is almost entirely dictated by personal experience.

In my personal experiences...

Of course it still exists. It always will.

I personally have never had an experience where I've had to deal with or directly observe racism or sexism.

Is there the possibility that a joke is not designed to make someone feel inferior? Sometimes jokes are nothing more than jokes.

 

[Sam48]

*facepalm* this might be where the problem lays. telling someone not to take it seriously sometimes make certain people even more upset. perhaps the person could just avoid the joke in the first place?

Perhaps they could. But I've never known anyone to become more upset by the fact that the person who was joking explained that they were joking. Nonetheless, the most you may do is ask them to stop (As long as they aren't threatening you verbally).

Uh, let's start with Top Gear's constant poking of other ethnicities. The whole controversy regarding Mexicans? They tried to downplay it, saying that it's about British humor. Seems British humor is really all about generalizing and grouping people together into crude categories, though.

And if thats what the British find funny, than so be it. You're right in saying they do such, but does Jeremy Clarkson really believe such? Of course not. For example, he claims that all Americans are fat and lazy. We all know he doesn't believe it. He just uses it to describe what he considers to be a majority.

Have you seen True Lies? I was watching it the other day, and it reinforced negative images of Arabs/Muslims.

24 does this as well.

Films with a white person as the protagonist tend to put the only black and Latino people as gangsters. Gone in 60 seconds. Training Day. Heck even Bruce Almighty. Notice the only Latinos are the gangsters that beat poor old Jim Carrey (or God). A bunch of films centered on Latinos were also released in the 80s (American Me, for instance) that typified the Chicano community as a gang infested community. Gender also played a role, because most gangsters were, coincidentally, children of single-mothers.

There was a film in the 90s called Candyman. It reinforced the image of the white woman being sexually chased by a deviant black man.

Asian people? I've seen too many martial movies with too many Asian people. Apparently, the US thinks all they do is practice martial arts.

Since everyone watches TV and watches movies, these are the images we learn. And people who never had the chance to live with other people of color are the ones that internalize them the most easily.

It's quite stereotypical, rather than racist.

By imposing the views they have of me and my race on me.

By way of racist jokes, not so much. By way of racist attack, then yes. They may say whatever they want, but to impose on your beliefs would be to threaten or force you into a given viewpoint.

You don't make sense! It all goes to my slap example. If I slap you, and you get pissed, I can say you're getting too serious. But maybe I'm wrong. If I tell you that the joke has made me uncomfortable, then that should be a sign for you to stop. Again, it's called respect. And it makes you a very virtuous person being able to reflect not just on your own personal views and reactions, but on the views and reactions of others. Cause it's not all about you and your "funny" joke. It's about who you're making fun of.

Respect is excellent, but assuming you haven't been verbally assaulted or threatened, the most you can do is ask them to stop.

If its designed to belittle me, make me feel inferior and is dressed up as a joke, that doesn't change the racist content of it.

They racist content diminishes any real threat.

These 'jokes' allow an attitude of inferiority based on skin colour to be the 'norm', and that is totally unacceptable.

Those of you who believe that this is no longer a problem should consider the following. When you have had to comfort and reassure your children that they are not 'stupid', 'worthless' and that they do not need to "🤬 off back home" because they have a different skin colour to others in school, once you have done that (as I have had to) come back and tell me its a joke or that it doesn't exist any more.

It doesn't even sound like a joke to begin with. Nonetheless, was the person directly targeted, or was it a broad sweeping statement? Regardless of the two, as long as it wasn't threatening, the best action would be to do exactly what you did.

Even if that leads to hate crimes and the persecution of a minority?

If one strays into the boundary of a hate crime, it's their loss.

 

[TouringDevotee]

@Sam48

Please explain how the racist content of a joke, diminishes any real threat. This seems to be the essence of your arguments; from what is this idea distilled?

If you are telling a personal joke, that is to say one about a singular person, then there is no problem really.

However, if you bring their culture into it, then you are also responsible for your end of the joke as it relates and correlates to your own culture. That is to say, if you are an American telling a racial joke about people of African, Chinese, Filipino or Arab/Muslim origin, then you have bound yourself to your culture and its past and present actions. You are no longer an individual telling a joke, but have taken the role as representative of American culture and history.

If you truly believe what you say, then I encourage you to go and tell racist jokes to your friends, surrounded only by the people of the culture who are the butt of the joke. Please feel free to travel the world doing this. Oh, and don't forget to let them know that the racist content diminishes any real threat.

 

[Scaff]

I never said that racism doesn't exist, I never said racism in itself is a joke.

This is why I posted something along the lines of "In my experiences" in nearly every post. With something like racism, someone's view on the matter is almost entirely dictated by personal experience.

Then I can only conclude that your real life experience is not sufficent to fully understand the true impact these kind of comments and 'jokes' can and do have.

Is there the possibility that a joke is not designed to make someone feel inferior? Sometimes jokes are nothing more than jokes.

The design is total irrelevant, its the result that is important. Someone may not have the intention to insult your family and you, but if they do so I'm sure you would both expect them to apologise and not repeat the action.

They racist content diminishes any real threat.

That make no sense what so ever.

Are you seriously trying to say that as long as racism contains no overt threat then its OK?

It doesn't even sound like a joke to begin with. Nonetheless, was the person directly targeted, or was it a broad sweeping statement? Regardless of the two, as long as it wasn't threatening, the best action would be to do exactly what you did.

No the best course of action would be for my children (or anyone for that matter) to have to face that level of ignorance at any time.

Now these attacks were not jokes, but those making them considered it to be an acceptable course of action to take, something reinforced by the 'norm' that racists jokes and comments help to provide.

If one strays into the boundary of a hate crime, it's their loss.

Could you clarify exactly what you mean by this.


Scaff

 

[Sam48]

Please explain how the racist content of a joke, diminishes any real threat. This seems to be the essence of your arguments; from what is this idea distilled?

Would a real racist laugh at a racist joke? Of course not. Why wouldn't they? Because they take racism very seriously. A racist joke being told to a racist is the equivalent of a global warming joke being told to Al Gore. They would never joke about such a thing. This is why a racist jokes are told by people who aren't real racists.

However, if you bring their culture into it, then you are also responsible for your end of the joke as it relates and correlates to your own culture. That is to say, if you are an American telling a racial joke about people of African, Chinese, Filipino or Arab/Muslim origin, then you have bound yourself to your culture and its past and present actions. You are no longer an individual telling a joke, but have taken the role as representative of American culture and history.

Not in the slightest. Just refer to my previous comment in this post. Also, just look at many modern comedians (Especially people like Daniel Tosh). They make massively broad racist jokes. Does that mean they're real racists? Of course not.

That make no sense what so ever.

Are you seriously trying to say that as long as racism contains no overt threat then its OK?

What I am saying is that that racist content in the context of a joke is OK. Refer to my first response to TouringDevotee for a better explanation.

Now these attacks were not jokes, but those making them considered it to be an acceptable course of action to take, something reinforced by the 'norm' that racists jokes and comments help to provide.

There's no evidence that racist jokes provoke further discrimination within a more serious and threatening context. Generally, one may pick on someone else because they have something against given person. The fact that they are of a different ethnicity only makes it easier for them to get picked on.

Could you clarify exactly what you mean by this.

In other words, the bully will more than likely receive quite a lot a backlash from the school for hate crimes (In the form of detention and being told they cannot attend school).

 

[Scaff]

Would a real racist laugh at a racist joke? Of course not. Why wouldn't they? Because they take racism very seriously.

Given my wife's ethnic make-up and my own activities I have had plenty of dealings with racists and they most certainly do use racist 'jokes'.

A racist joke being told to a racist is the equivalent of a global warming joke being told to Al Gore. They would never joke about such a thing. This is why a racist jokes are told by people who aren't real racists.

Not in the slightest. Just refer to my previous comment in this post. Also, just look at many modern comedians (Especially people like Daniel Tosh). They make massively broad racist jokes. Does that mean they're real racists? Of course not.

It doesn't matter a jot if the person telling the 'joke' believes they are a racist or not, what matters is the impact that joke has on the targets of it.

Many racist comedians have no real idea of the true impact of their 'jokes', and can be genuinely surprised by it. That doesn't mitigate the impact of it at all.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12569498

What I am saying is that that racist content in the context of a joke is OK. Refer to my first response to TouringDevotee for a better explanation.

Any attempt to justify racist attitudes as just being 'funny' shows a massive level of ignorance of the very real impact these comments have on people and there lives.

There's no evidence that racist jokes provoke further discrimination within a more serious and threatening context. Generally, one may pick on someone else because they have something against given person. The fact that they are of a different ethnicity only makes it easier for them to get picked on.

Nonsense.

....if you hold negative views against one of these groups, hearing disparaging jokes about them "releases" inhibitions you might have, and you feel it's ok to discriminate against them.

Previous studies by Ford and others on sexist humor showed the same pattern. People who are sexist to begin with and enjoy sexist jokes show higher tolerance for sexist events, tend to accept rape myths, and tend to show greater willingness to discriminate against women.

Source - http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/humor-sapiens/201107/does-racist-humor-promote-racism

I have colleagues who claim that racist jokes do not perpetuate racial stereotypes. They argue that a racist joke, alone, cannot make an individual accept racial stereotypes. They are right. It is unlikely that hearing a joke about Haitians being violent is sufficient, by itself, to make the hearer accept the belief that Haitians are violent; yet, it introduces the belief to some listeners and reinforces the stereotype in the minds of other listeners. The racist joke is part of a larger puzzle; it combines with unfavorable portrayals in movies, television shows, novels, and video games to perpetuate the belief that Haitians are more violent than other Americans, especially white Americans. The derogatory depictions of Haitians are interrelated, interconnected, and mutually reinforcing. The fact that the joke does not act alone -- or is not successful alone -- hardly diminishes its important role in the perpetuation of racial stereotyping.

Source - http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/essays/jokes/

Quite frankly your attitudes to this subject and clear acceptance of racists comments as an acceptable norm worry the hell out of me.

In other words, the bully will more than likely receive quite a lot a backlash from the school for hate crimes (In the form of detention and being told they cannot attend school).

In a nice ideal world that may well be the case, in reality its a lot different. I know I've address the issue of racist comments and attacks with schools. Have you?


Scaff

 

[Sam48]

Given my wife's ethnic make-up and my own activities I have had plenty of dealings with racists and they most certainly do use racist 'jokes'.

Before we go any further, what do you consider to be a "racist joke". Because my idea of a verbal attack may be equal to your idea of a "racist joke".

It doesn't matter a jot if the person telling the 'joke' believes they are a racist or not, what matters is the impact that joke has on the targets of it.

Many racist comedians have no real idea of the true impact of their 'jokes', and can be genuinely surprised by it. That doesn't mitigate the impact of it at all.

That would be known as overreacting. Everyone knows the comedian isn't really racist, and because of this, one must realize they aren't even being serious to begin with. The same goes for anyone who makes a racist joke. If it's either obvious they are just kidding, or they tell you they are, and you're still offended, that's your fault. You're overreacted if that's the case.

Any attempt to justify racist attitudes as just being 'funny' shows a massive level of ignorance of the very real impact these comments have on people and there lives.

Maybe they weren't meant to be funny, and they really are trying to be racist. Nonetheless, only a few decades ago, many were less concerned with racist comments and more concerned about coming home with the bruises of a beating. (As a result of racism)

That aside, what would you do to address this?

Nonsense.

Source - http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/humor-sapiens/201107/does-racist-humor-promote-racism

Source - http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/essays/jokes/

Quite frankly your attitudes to this subject and clear acceptance of racists comments as an acceptable norm worry the hell out of me.

It must simply be my way of thinking then. I've heard hundreds of racist jokes throughout my life (Some of which were directed at me). I've never bought into one for even a second. I consider it a joke (Even if it's not funny or take it wrong). I guess I just don't take "threats" seriously enough. But, of course, that's just my personality.

In a nice ideal world that may well be the case, in reality its a lot different. I know I've address the issue of racist comments and attacks with schools. Have you?

If by "addressed" you mean re-assured someone they aren't really what they're being called by bullies, then yes. But if you mean in terms of a staff who worked at a school, then no.

 

[Scaff]

Before we go any further, what do you consider to be a "racist joke". Because my idea of a verbal attack may be equal to your idea of a "racist joke".

Anything that uses racial stereotypes to provide 'humour'

That would be known as overreacting. Everyone knows the comedian isn't really racist, and because of this, one must realize they aren't even being serious to begin with. The same goes for anyone who makes a racist joke. If it's either obvious they are just kidding, or they tell you they are, and you're still offended, that's your fault. You're overreacted if that's the case.

Ah right so now its the fault of the people who are the target of the jokes, damn must tell my wife and kids they are really the ones to blame.

I'm sorry but that poorly thought out defence just doesn't work.

Maybe they weren't meant to be funny, and they really are trying to be racist. Nonetheless, only a few decades ago, many were less concerned with racist comments and more concerned about coming home with the bruises of a beating. (As a result of racism)

That aside, what would you do to address this?

And maybe you need to understand that the people who believe this kind of humour is acceptable are laying the foundations that those who provide the beatings need.

It must simply be my way of thinking then. I've heard hundreds of racist jokes throughout my life (Some of which were directed at me). I've never bought into one for even a second. I consider it a joke (Even if it's not funny or take it wrong). I guess I just don't take "threats" seriously enough. But, of course, that's just my personality.

May I ask how old you are and the nature of the attack on yourself.

If by "addressed" you mean re-assured someone they aren't really what they're being called by bullies, then yes. But if you mean in terms of a staff who worked at a school, then no.

I mean both. In my time I have encountered total ambivalence at times from schools and the police in regard to racist behaviour, many attempting to use the same defence as yourself. Fortunately attitudes such as this are (in the UK at least) starting to change.

That doesn't makes us too PC, that makes for a tolerant and accepting society.


Scaff

 

[Sam48]

Anything that uses racial stereotypes to provide 'humour'

That's a bit infringing if you ask me. Many people use such stereotypes with no bad intentions.

Ah right so now its the fault of the people who are the target of the jokes, damn must tell my wife and kids they are really the ones to blame.

I'm sorry but that poorly thought out defence just doesn't work.

Judging by your phrasing of the situation, it's sounds as if you do not interpret anything racial as a joke. The best medicine to cure what you consider offensive language is the ability to either cope, or ignore it. But showing you're offended only makes you more vulnerable.

And maybe you need to understand that the people who believe this kind of humour is acceptable are laying the foundations that those who provide the beatings need.

I'll repeat what I asked before, that being, what do you do about it?

May I ask how old you are and the nature of the attack on yourself.

I try to keep my age anonymous anywhere online. However, the "attacks" on me included mild gestures and terms like "cracker a**" and what not. But nothing ever came across as threatening.

 

[dautolover]

It's quite stereotypical, rather than racist.

And what exactly is the difference? When you stereotype, you're making a broad overgeneralization of someone based on their appearance. You take an individual's color of his/her skin and draw from the images fed by society to make a judgment of what this person is.

You take an individual color, with all his or her complexities, and reduce him/her to a stereotype.

That's not racist?

Respect is excellent, but assuming you haven't been verbally assaulted or threatened, the most you can do is ask them to stop.

So until the fists come raining down on me, you can make fun of me because of my color all you want and still not be racist?

That's a bit infringing if you ask me. Many people use such stereotypes with no bad intentions.

Smh... Infringing? By telling you that I'm offended and that you should show some respect, I'm infringing on you?! Have you no sense!

This is all I see you talk about when you defend the use of racist humor... that you don't want to hear people tell you that your "joke" has offended them. Apparently telling you that I'm offended is infringing on your rights as a human being...

The best medicine to cure what you consider offensive language is the ability to either cope, or ignore it. But showing you're offended only makes you more vulnerable.

The best cure is to get rid of racism, not cope with it.

 

[Sam48]

And what exactly is the difference? When you stereotype, you're making a broad overgeneralization of someone based on their appearance. You take an individual's color of his/her skin and draw from the images fed by society to make a judgment of what this person is.

You take an individual color, with all his or her complexities, and reduce him/her to a stereotype.

That's not racist?

In the context of the media (As previously discussed), no. Have you ever seen a black ninja? an Asian burglar? Or a white gangster? The media dares to stray toward such because if you balance it out, instead of being stereotypical, you get something that makes no sense at all. Not only that, but by the act of balancing it, they acknowledge racism.

So until the fists come raining down on me, you can make fun of me because of my color all you want and still not be racist?

They could be racist, but they might not be. But I've never heard someone go from making jokes to beating someone up. You will more than likely receive many threats before any violence occurs.

Smh... Infringing? By telling you that I'm offended and that you should show some respect, I'm infringing on you?! Have you no sense!

No. Infringing if you force me to stop, not if you just ask me to stop.

This is all I see you talk about when you defend the use of racist humor... that you don't want to hear people tell you that your "joke" has offended them. Apparently telling you that I'm offended is infringing on your rights as a human being...

No. They may tell me that they're offended, but if I tell them that I'm not being racist and only trying to be funny, then they must realize they've taken me to seriously. I'd probably stop after that, but as I said before, you're aloud to be offended. (Although I've personally never told a racist joke to someone I don't know well).

The best cure is to get rid of racism, not cope with it.

You can't get rid of racism.

 

[Scaff]

That's a bit infringing if you ask me. Many people use such stereotypes with no bad intentions.

How can my opinion of what makes a racist joke being infringing in any way.

What exactly is it infringing and how?

Also once again, what the intention is doesn't matter a jot, its the end result.

A extreme example, but an example non the less. Someone hands you a gun and with no malice or ill intention you fire it in the air. The bullet falls, strikes someone and kills them. Does you lack of bad intentions make you innocent of that persons death?

Judging by your phrasing of the situation, it's sounds as if you do not interpret anything racial as a joke. The best medicine to cure what you consider offensive language is the ability to either cope, or ignore it. But showing you're offended only makes you more vulnerable.

I don't consider anything racial as a joke, bigotry is not funny, nor is it constructive in any way.

That is not a sign of vulnerability or weakness on my part at all.

I'll repeat what I asked before, that being, what do you do about it?

Educate those involved to enable them to understand the actual results of the action they are taking, rather than the fable of innocence they live behind.

I try to keep my age anonymous anywhere online. However, the "attacks" on me included mild gestures and terms like "cracker a**" and what not. But nothing ever came across as threatening.

Ok under Twenty? Under Fifteen? Give me a clue at least.

I also though these were attacks on you, not "nothing ever came across as threatening". Give living with threats of violence and actual violence a go and then come back and tell us how great the 'jokes' that help justify those attacks are.

In the context of the media (As previously discussed), no. Have you ever seen a black ninja? an Asian burglar? Or a white gangster? The media dares to stray toward such because if you balance it out, instead of being stereotypical, you get something that makes no sense at all. Not only that, but by the act of balancing it, they acknowledge racism.

That makes no damn sense at all.

They could be racist, but they might not be. But I've never heard someone go from making jokes to beating someone up. You will more than likely receive many threats before any violence occurs.

I have. Simply because your experience doesn't include it doesn;t mean its never happened.

No. They may tell me that they're offended, but if I tell them that I'm not being racist and only trying to be funny, then they must realize they've taken me to seriously. I'd probably stop after that, but as I said before, you're aloud to be offended. (Although I've personally never told a racist joke to someone I don't know well).

Why should they need to tell you? As a human being should you not be aware enough to understand when you actions cause offence? Should you not learn from that and not repeat those actions in the future?

I also find it interesting that you consider racist jokes OK, but are concerned about who you tell them to.

You can't get rid of racism.

Why?

Or is this because you are OK with its existence?


Scaff

 

[Sam48]

How can my opinion of what makes a racist joke being infringing in any way.

What exactly is it infringing and how?

Infringing because we have the freedom to say whatever we want. But if you consider all racially slurred content to be "Unacceptable", where has our freedom gone? Now, I assume you don't want to limit freedom of speech, but if we're going to punish people for any racial content that may be considered offensive, I consider that infringing. (Unless I'm misinterpreting your statement)

Also once again, what the intention is doesn't matter a jot, its the end result.

An extreme example, but an example non the less. Someone hands you a gun and with no malice or ill intention you fire it in the air. The bullet falls, strikes someone and kills them. Does you lack of bad intentions make you innocent of that persons death?

You can't exactly tell someone you didn't mean to kill them once they're dead. Whereas if you tell a racist joke to someone and then tell them you're just kidding, it's as if the bullet just missed them on its way down.

I don't consider anything racial as a joke, bigotry is not funny, nor is it constructive in any way.

That is not a sign of vulnerability or weakness on my part at all.

That's simply your opinion. You may consider yourself neutral, technically, but that doesn't mean someone thinks the same of you.

Educate those involved to enable them to understand the actual results of the action they are taking, rather than the fable of innocence they live behind.

That may help, but this would probably only reinforce the bullies original prospects as to how others feel when they're bullied. In other words, it reassures the bully that he's doing a good job.

Ok under Twenty? Under Fifteen? Give me a clue at least.

I don't believe I even gave Facebook my age. That's how protective I am. I also didn't even use my full last name, just an initial.

I also though these were attacks on you, not "nothing ever came across as threatening". Give living with threats of violence and actual violence a go and then come back and tell us how great the 'jokes' that help justify those attacks are.

I think I understand what you're saying, but the english was slightly confusing in some areas.

That makes no damn sense at all.

Then please explain. (Although this was a response to dautolover)

I have. Simply because your experience doesn't include it doesn't mean its never happened.

Oh of course. I'm simply explaining what I know to be true. Maybe things are a bit different across the pond. (Which could actually explain a few things)

Why should they need to tell you? As a human being should you not be aware enough to understand when you actions cause offence? Should you not learn from that and not repeat those actions in the future?

Why do you assume that everyone is offended?

I also find it interesting that you consider racist jokes OK, but are concerned about who you tell them to.

I would never tell a racist joke to someone I don't really know because I am afraid that I could offend them, but I have no right to tell others that they can't tell someone a racist joke.

Why?

Or is this because you are OK with its existence?

I'm not okay with real racism, but getting rid of it would be diminishing our ability to be offended. And as far as I'm concerned, that will never be possible.

 

[Blaze_409]

Sam. I am typing from an iPhone right now. So I don't want to quote but damn....you do not make the slightest sense. Since when did it become a right of yours to offend other people? Freedom of Speech is for the good of the people. Not to make racial slurrs. I don't know where you heard that from. You are sitting here saying things that make you sound racist. Your practically defending racist people..are you a racist? Since when am I infringing upon you if I "force you" not to make a racist comment. Your comment in itself is infringing upon me so me forcing you to stop us simply getting even If I use your flawed logic. And since when do you get to "point and shoot a gun at someone" and then happen to miss(and then say that is analogous to a racist joke). You can go to Prison for pointing a firearm at someone. You point one at a cop and they will shoot you down. That's beside the point because the analogy egregious. I can't believe that I just read the last post, I m going to go wash my eyes out with soap and water now.

 

[Scaff]

Infringing because we have the freedom to say whatever we want. But if you consider all racially slurred content to be "Unacceptable", where has our freedom gone? Now, I assume you don't want to limit freedom of speech, but if we're going to punish people for any racial content that may be considered offensive, I consider that infringing. (Unless I'm misinterpreting your statement)

Actually you don't have the freedom of speech to say what you want any time you want.

According to the Freedom Forum Organization, legal systems, and society at large, recognize limits on the freedom of speech, particularly when freedom of speech conflicts with other values or rights.[40] Limitations to freedom of speech may follow the "harm principle" or the "offense principle", for example in the case of pornography, religious belief or hate speech. Limitations to freedom of speech may occur through legal sanction or social disapprobation, or both.[41]

Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#Limitations
Source - http://www.seop.leeds.ac.uk/entries/freedom-speech/#HarPriFreSpe

That is however a moot point, as my opinion (and that is all I had expressed) can't infringe on anything.

You can't exactly tell someone you didn't mean to kill them once they're dead. Whereas if you tell a racist joke to someone and then tell them you're just kidding, it's as if the bullet just missed them on its way down.

No its not at all, the act has occurred and the target has been 'hit'. You could say its as if you have hit the person with the bullet and not killed them. Saying you didn't mean to do it still isn't going to do you any good.

You seem to be having a major problem getting the concept that its not always the intentions of you actions, but the result that matters.

That's simply your opinion. You may consider yourself neutral, technically, but that doesn't mean someone thinks the same of you.

Where in the world did neutral come from and when did I state this was anything but my opinion?

That may help, but this would probably only reinforce the bullies original prospects as to how others feel when they're bullied. In other words, it reassures the bully that he's doing a good job.

No it actually a valid and often effective method of dealing with the situation, one I have personal experience with. Do you?

I don't believe I even gave Facebook my age. That's how protective I am. I also didn't even use my full last name, just an initial.

Paranoid much! I've not asked you name, I don't care about your name, but your rough age would be quite revealing given the context of this discussion.

I think I understand what you're saying, but the english was slightly confusing in some areas.

My English was perfectly clear.

You have never experienced repeated and sustained racial abuse and violence to fully understand the damage and affect that racial jokes and stereotyping have.

Then please explain. (Although this was a response to dautolover)

How can I explain a post of yours that is unclear (and it doesn't make a blind bit of difference who its in reply to). You posted it, it doesn't make sense, so you explain it.

Oh of course. I'm simply explaining what I know to be true. Maybe things are a bit different across the pond. (Which could actually explain a few things)

I've travelled most of the world, this is not based on a limited world view. Your comments however I believe are based on a very narrow world view. Hence why I wonder how old you are, because you comments seem born out of naivety, ignorance and an upbringing that allowed racial slurs to be the norm.

You inability to form a cohesive argument as to why racial slurs are acceptable is clear indication of that.

Why do you assume that everyone is offended?

Have you forgotten that my wife and kids are of mixed race? That means half my extended family is, my friends are. I've also worked since my youth with Hope not Hate and other anti-facist and anti-racists organisations. This is not a subject I have wandered into lightly, I don't however believe the same is true for you.

I would never tell a racist joke to someone I don't really know because I am afraid that I could offend them, but I have no right to tell others that they can't tell someone a racist joke.

So you acknowledge (now) that racial jokes can and do offend, but you feel its OK for people to be offended and for that offence to be the norm.

In other world you are quite OK with racial slurs and attack to be considered normal.

I'm not okay with real racism, but getting rid of it would be diminishing our ability to be offended. And as far as I'm concerned, that will never be possible.

What!

We can get rid of racism because it would stop people being offended and that will never happen!

You have a major disconnect here with the real world and the affect of actions like these on real people, their lives and families.

Oh and 'real' racism? As opposed to what? 'Fake' racism?

You are once again looking for a screen behind which to hide you racist jokes. Jokes that you know cause offence and know are wrong, otherwise you would have no problem shouting them from the rooftops.


Scaff

 

[Grand Prix]

I look at like this: It is not my responsibility to ensure others don't get offended by comments I make. I speak of not just potentially racist comments, but political correctness in general.

How can I possibly know what a person can get offended by, without knowing who they are first? Am I supposed to judge their genetic traits beforehand? Will it offend them if they know I'm trying not to, based on what they look like? You just don't know; it depends on the person.


So here's what I do: I just be myself, and when I do, I sometimes get very passionate, and a few curse words and horrible stereotypes are going to pop out at times.

If a person gets offended by a comment I made, I will never say that to that person ever again. Unless it turns into friendly cussing. (The best kind of cussing! ) Usually after they are offended, I will exercise politeness, because I can't possibly know what the threshold is until I reach it.


It's not perfect, and obviously I do try to exercise politeness in general. I just don't think it's the responsibility of the sender to ensure the receiver doesn't get offended. We have all gotten offended at some point, sometimes for the most stupid of reasons. It's something you have to learn to deal with. You can get all angry and 🤬, or just laugh at their idiocy. You can even stop caring altogether. It's a choice you can make.

 

[Sam48]

That is however a moot point, as my opinion (and that is all I had expressed) can't infringe on anything.

That is until enough opinions speak up.

No its not at all, the act has occurred and the target has been 'hit'. You could say its as if you have hit the person with the bullet and not killed them. Saying you didn't mean to do it still isn't going to do you any good.

I think we've exhausted this example to death, but if you've explained to the person that you have no intention of hurting their feelings, than it's as if you never said it to begin with. They might think you're a bit rude afterwards, but they certainly will understand that you're not trying to personally offend them.

Where in the world did neutral come from and when did I state this was anything but my opinion?

Sorry, but when you stated this: "That is not a sign of vulnerability or weakness on my part at all", in regards to the fact that you don't find racial slurs or bigotry funny, I thought you meant you were neutral in terms of how you dealt with those who expressed the opposite of such. I simply misinterpreted it.

No it actually a valid and often effective method of dealing with the situation, one I have personal experience with. Do you?

No, I do not. I'll hand you that.

Paranoid much! I've not asked you name, I don't care about your name, but your rough age would be quite revealing given the context of this discussion.

I didn't mean for that to come across as paranoid, rather, I was hoping you might understand I'm quite protective of my personal information. (Which I'm sure you understand now)

You have never experienced repeated and sustained racial abuse and violence to fully understand the damage and affect that racial jokes and stereotyping have.

That I can concur with. It's true I had it easy in regards to any abuse.

How can I explain a post of yours that is unclear (and it doesn't make a blind bit of difference who its in reply to). You posted it, it doesn't make sense, so you explain it.

Okay then. If the media tried to balance racial characters in movies and TV shows, like dautolover suggested, would that not make it obvious the media is acknowledging racism in the first place?

I've travelled most of the world, this is not based on a limited world view. Your comments however I believe are based on a very narrow world view.

That they could be, given I've never left North America.

Have you forgotten that my wife and kids are of mixed race? That means half my extended family is, my friends are. I've also worked since my youth with Hope not Hate and other anti-facist and anti-racists organisations. This is not a subject I have wandered into lightly, I don't however believe the same is true for you.

That is true. I have never worked with any discrimination preventative groups before.

So you acknowledge (now) that racial jokes can and do offend, but you feel its OK for people to be offended and for that offence to be the norm.

You have no right not to be offended, and, if you are, you may speak out yourself.

In other world you are quite OK with racial slurs and attack to be considered normal.

I am okay with them if the person telling it makes it clear they are not being serious or if the person on the receiving end is not offended. However, even if they are offended, the person who told it does not have a responsibility to apologize. But of course, I would never encourage anyone to tell racist jokes to people whom they do not know because they could offend them.

What!

We can get rid of racism because it would stop people being offended and that will never happen!

Let me re-phrase this because I may have changed my thoughts on this. Here's how racism would stay, but no longer be offensive:

Racism won't go away when everyone stops telling racist jokes. Racism will go away when everyone can tell a racist joke and cause everyone to laugh.

This, of course, is completely unrealistic.

Oh and 'real' racism? As opposed to what? 'Fake' racism?

No, as opposed to racist remarks between people who know they aren't being serious. (AKA, simply joking with each other).

 

[Blaze_409]

Yes because I totally had no intention of stealing you car. but i did it anyway. But no wait, its ok because I told you before hand that i didnt mean it....WTF!? o.O .

 

[Scaff]

That is until enough opinions speak up.

No, I do not. I'll hand you that.

That I can concur with. It's true I had it easy in regards to any abuse.

That they could be, given I've never left North America.

That is true. I have never worked with any discrimination preventative groups before.

Much as I thought you are making these wildly inaccurate statements based on very limited experience and understanding of the impact they have.

Simply because you see racist jokes as harmless doesn't make that true, try getting engaged and see the effect they have on others and you may well end up seeing this quite differently.

For the record I don't see you as racist (but I don't see you as being that far away from it), but I do see you as massively ignorant of the world of racism. As you see you no consequence of these actions you believe that none exist. You keep firing the gun up in the air and all is well, but one day those bullets will start raining down.

Okay then. If the media tried to balance racial characters in movies and TV shows, like dautolover suggested, would that not make it obvious the media is acknowledging racism in the first place?

No, not in anyway at all. In continuing the use of those stereotypes they are already acknowledging racism and re-enforcing it.

Racism won't go away when everyone stops telling racist jokes. Racism will go away when everyone can tell a racist joke and cause everyone to laugh.

And bang we are straight back to square one.

Racism will not go away when everyone can tell a racist jokes, racism will go away when people realism that stupid stereotypes that have no real basis in truth are seen for what they are. The petty minded ramblings of those too scared or ignorant to face the real world.


Scaff

 

[Sam48]

Simply because you see racist jokes as harmless doesn't make that true

I think that's where you overstate my claim. I only see them as harmless in certain situations. (As I've mentioned before)

For the record I don't see you as racist (but I don't see you as being that far away from it),

Not in the slightest. I consider myself very impartial.

but I do see you as massively ignorant of the world of racism. As you see you no consequence of these actions you believe that none exist.

A better phrase would be "Not prone to".

And bang we are straight back to square one.

Racism will not go away when everyone can tell a racist jokes, racism will go away when people realism that stupid stereotypes that have no real basis in truth are seen for what they are.

Whether the stereotypes are true or false, as long as we can laugh at ourselves, it wouldn't make a bit of difference.

 

[Zenith]

Then I can only conclude that your real life experience is not sufficent to fully understand the true impact these kind of comments and 'jokes' can and do have.

You're right, in my life's experience, racism against my family and me has not been an issue. I'm also not doubting for a moment that racism still exists nor that it still has a huge effects on the lives of some, including you and your family. For this I am truly sorry.

However, I believe that my experience should say something about the state of racism in the modern world. My family in particular lives in a place where racism is basically nonexistent, except to those who contrive situations and jokes for it to be.

Sometimes the lack of evidence says a lot. Now that hate crime is often a news-worthy story, it's clear that as a society we have racism and prejudice on the back foot.

The design is total irrelevant, its the result that is important.

I respectfully disagree , but that's a difference in perspective.

 

[dautolover]

However, I believe that my experience should say something about the state of racism in the modern world. My family in particular lives in a place where racism is basically nonexistent, except to those who contrive situations and jokes for it to be.

Racism exists everywhere. You have to realize that racism has to do not only with the disadvantages minorities get, but the benefits that nonminorities get as well. The fact that your family has been able to live in a world where you don't see these things (I'm guessing you live at a predominantly Caucasian neighborhood?) means that your neighborhood lacks a particular diversity that prevent you from being aware of these things. It could be that your neighborhood has shunned out people of color (some neighborhoods, back in the day, had racial covenants, banning blacks from owning homes in these neighborhoods). This could have made it possible to keep housing segregation alive, and this probably worked in such a way that, even to this day, such segregation keeps minorities from even being able to afford a house in your neighborhood. If this is the case, your neighborhood, in effect, is shaped by racism. You just don't feel it, because people tend to assume that it affects the lives of minorities only.

I look at like this: It is not my responsibility to ensure others don't get offended by comments I make. I speak of not just potentially racist comments, but political correctness in general.

...

It's not perfect, and obviously I do try to exercise politeness in general. I just don't think it's the responsibility of the sender to ensure the receiver doesn't get offended. We have all gotten offended at some point, sometimes for the most stupid of reasons. It's something you have to learn to deal with. You can get all angry and 🤬, or just laugh at their idiocy. You can even stop caring altogether. It's a choice you can make.

I think that you're right, partially. If someone gets offended by your joke, that perhaps you didn't say it in a serious manner, fine. But let's differentiate.

Making fun of someone because they're, say, clumsy... What does the joke consist of? It's mostly based on an individualized trait... clumsiness. The key here is the individualization that takes place.

Making fun of someone based on their race (and even gender and sexual orientation)... What does the joke consist of? It's not based on an individualized trait. You're not drawing from something particular of this person. You're drawing from historical attitudes against minorities. You're generalizing and stereotyping a person whenever you make such a joke.

I don't know how a person will react to a joke poking fun of their clumsiness. But I do have a pretty good idea of how people who have been victims of racism will react to a racist joke. I mean, some people have been told horrible things, and not as a joke, but to actually make them feel inferior. Maybe their parents or their grandparents were told these things to make them feel inferior. I don't see how those words can be "made" funny. That's why I don't say them. Cause I know the history. And that's something that Sam48 simply does not get... the history embedded in his joke.