Should PD have let the modding slide? ... OP Updated.

[BayouSimDrifter]

People keep bringing the manufacturers into this -__- if they aren't complaining about the ones happening in real life I doubt they will care in a video game. If they did then they would go after every person in FD and D1.

 

[thelvynau]

People keep bringing the manufacturers into this -__- if they aren't complaining about the ones happening in real life I doubt they will care in a video game. If they did then they would go after every person in FD and D1.

They cant do anything in real life because people own the cars its a bit different with gt5 we dont own the vehicles they remain the property of pd under licence im sure the manufacturers would be concerned regardless of wether anything can be done about it.

 

[Hei]

Hybriding has always been around. Manufacturers won't do anything. It's a older game.

 

[thelvynau]

Hybriding has always been around. Manufacturers won't do anything. It's a older game.

And you can state that as fact?

 

[Hei]

That it has been in every single Gran Turismo? Yes.

 

[thelvynau]

That it has been in every single Gran Turismo? Yes.

That still doesnt mean they dont care about it only shows the couldnt do anything.

 

[Hei]

Of course. It will always be done. Before we had no online. No way to fix. Nowadays, it just isn't in their interest to waste their time figuring out a solution, but you wouldn't care either way.

 

[thelvynau]

Of course. It will always be done. Before we had no online. No way to fix. Nowadays, it just isn't in their interest to waste their time figuring out a solution, but you wouldn't care either way.

Wouldnt you think that given the GT games before now were offline and due to that fact the manufacturers simply didnt know about it?

Basing fact off previous games that had less exposure online doesnt validate your claim nor make it fact.

Edit: I think we should agree to disagree I have work tomorrow so im heading to bed.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Wouldnt you think that given the GT games before now were offline and due to that fact the manufacturers simply didnt know about it?

Basing fact off previous games that had less exposure online doesnt validate your claim nor make it fact.

I do agree that (can't stress enough if/might) there might be a licensing issue with the manufacturers doing this online. But honestly there is a slim chance.

I know how Ferrari is and always has been overly sensitive to there cars in games (hints the reason in the past the fixed the problem with the F1 Ferrari cars being able to be driven with other cars. But like it has been said that is really the only thing really that PD is risking by not fixing it.

 

[Hei]

Its not going to happen. It's a very slim chance. Most people didn't even know about hybriding till now, but it has always been around.

 

[Ranman20]

@page behind right its gonna damage a 2 year old game, yeah right! Its bring more customers back, do you see how many new people coming to GTP everyday? 90% of them come for hybrids, the other 10% come to complain.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Its not going to happen. It's a very slim chance. Most people didn't even know about hybriding till now, but it has always been around.

Yep

 

[Voodoovaj]

lol GT5's Forecast still looks the same with high chance of cars slamming into your car doing about 840 Kmh. I buy a brand new Ferrari California tuned it beautifully with amazing control, Acceleration etc, and my car feels like it's parked compared to the hacked High HP cars. 0 to 60 in: "What was that?"

How does your California do against the Ferrari F1 cars? How about all the Le Mans prototypes? To use a very old analogy, you are comparing apples to oranges. A tuned California is a 550 car, so run against a 550 hybrid and see the difference.

It's been said many times already, if you stick to within a PP range for a car, the modding is a great addition.

I'm not talking out my ass when I say that many of the comments regarding the legalities are a little off base. I retired from game development after 17 years, so I think I know a little more about the ins and outs than some others on this forum. Sony has a different philosophy about their brand and their experience compared to MS. For MS, they control everything and they let the suits dictate. Sony is less controlling and they believe in developers. In a case like this, the community is the developer. I would bet my life that they are watching this very closely because every franchise watches it's community like a hawk.

They are letting this play out. If there was a legitimate threat against licencors, they'd have fixed the problem because it would not be that hard to roll out a new patch. Don't forget, the game is perpetually logged into their servers if you are signed in. You don't have to go to an online race. If they wanted to, they could even shut you down by not allowing you to log in to the game at all.

The manufacturers are gaining exposure by including their cars in the game and it does them no harm for someone to modify their virtual car. Let the manufacturer have a fit and call in the lawyers...imagine the fallout for that company when millions of people see them as a party pooper.

Will they shut this down versus turn a blind eye? My vote is on the blind eye.

 

[Johnnypenso]

...snip.... Sony is less controlling and they believe in developers. In a case like this, the community is the developer. I would bet my life that they are watching this very closely because every franchise watches it's community like a hawk.

They are letting this play out. If there was a legitimate threat against licencors, they'd have fixed the problem because it would not be that hard to roll out a new patch. Don't forget, the game is perpetually logged into their servers if you are signed in. You don't have to go to an online race. If they wanted to, they could even shut you down by not allowing you to log in to the game at all.

..snip...

Will they shut this down versus turn a blind eye? My vote is on the blind eye.

These are pretty much my thoughts too. They have to do something about this before the launch of GT6 in my opinion, GT6 with unlimited hybriding would be a huge mistake, but I think GT5 will motor on as is until GT6 rolls out and GT5 is obsolete. If something was going to be done it would have been done already.

You don't have to like it, but it looks like it's here to stay. The real question is, can you gain a competitive advantage over the fastest PP limited cars in the game through hybriding without abusing the PP system with excessive power? So far, the answer is no. I've made cars better than they were originally, some by quite a bit, but my best laps at given track/tire/pp combos are still the same, there are just a whole lot more cars capable of getting close to it.

 

[DiersZee1]

These are pretty much my thoughts too. They have to do something about this before the launch of GT6 in my opinion, GT6 with unlimited hybriding would be a huge mistake, but I think GT5 will motor on as is until GT6 rolls out and GT5 is obsolete. If something was going to be done it would have been done already.

You don't have to like it, but it looks like it's here to stay. The real question is, can you gain a competitive advantage over the fastest PP limited cars in the game through hybriding without abusing the PP system with excessive power? So far, the answer is no. I've made cars better than they were originally, some by quite a bit, but my best laps at given track/tire/pp combos are still the same, there are just a whole lot more cars capable of getting close to it.

How did the 2nd round of the Social Experiment go last week? Did not realize you had a room up till the next day and saw post was edited with room#. Any PD supplied players?

Hopefully PD figures things out for GT6, but not by taking some of our freedom away. Share, Gift/Trading and External saves.

 

[I'm Motarded]

@page behind right its gonna damage a 2 year old, yeah right! Its bring more customers back, do you see how many new people coming to GTP everyday? 90% of them come for hybrids, the other 10% come to complain.

I guess you mean me by "@page behind" lol

I'm not talking about now and GT5, I'm talking about the future, you know GT6, GT7, GT8 prologue or whatnot. Speaking of new customers though, I wonder how many of those new people will be interested in GT6 when it comes and doesn't have hybrids? I suspect many will look into hacking/modding it day-one if the game is still on the same platform and based on GT5. You can be sure PD will do something then. And how many new customers have there been since this started? do you have figures? 90% & 10% of 100 isn't a lot. and of those new 90% how many are buying used a game? PD will see very little profit from all of this, just increased server usage IMHO

Hopefully PD figures things out for GT6, but not by taking some of our freedom away. Share, Gift/Trading and External saves.

To quote an old saying "This is why we can't have nice things". PD left us a lot of freedom with this game and it's saves, and from the beginning it's been abused. I fear without locking things down, some of that freedom will be lost, otherwise it's just a matter of time until the game gets cracked and abused again.

 

[Exorcet]

To quote an old saying "This is why we can't have nice things". PD left us a lot of freedom with this game and it's saves, and from the beginning it's been abused. I fear without locking things down, some of that freedom will be lost, otherwise it's just a matter of time until the game gets cracked and abused again.

What freedom? The last time game saves were properly handled was GT5P. Players own their saves. All the nonsense about save locking and limiting copying is garbage brought from nowhere. There's no excuse to keep it around. Proper lobby options are the obvious fix. Adding a file system check is the perfect solution. Going after some convoluted and nonsensical method of control like locking saves will just show us they don't care.

 

[Voodoovaj]

To quote an old saying "This is why we can't have nice things". PD left us a lot of freedom with this game and it's saves, and from the beginning it's been abused. I fear without locking things down, some of that freedom will be lost, otherwise it's just a matter of time until the game gets cracked and abused again.

Hang on, the jury is out on whether this has been abused. The only thing I have seen that was questionable is a very fast Ferrari 458 and the owner did not admit to modding it. By "fast" it was merely as fast as a well tuned LFA. After playing with the mods myself, I am inclined to believe that the car was merely well tuned.

Modding made tons of money for Halflife and Battlefield with no initial investment. Later, as the income rose, the publishers started pitching in cash to keep the modding community going.

If I were the exec. producer on this one, I would let this slide and support it behind the scenes. It allows the community to make cars that Sony doesn't need to pay for. It's all profit.

 

[I'm Motarded]

What freedom? The last time game saves were properly handled was GT5P. Players own their saves. All the nonsense about save locking and limiting copying is garbage brought from nowhere. There's no excuse to keep it around. Proper lobby options are the obvious fix. Adding a file system check is the perfect solution. Going after some convoluted and nonsensical method of control like locking saves will just show us they don't care.

We do not own anything, Sony reserve the right to brick all your hardware if you do not abide by their rules or ask you to do it yourself via a lawyer.

8. LICENSE RESTRICTIONS AND CONDITIONS

Hang on, the jury is out on whether this has been abused.

I meant the duping that PD tried to put an end to early on in the games life. I'm intrigued though, you don't think 10,000 bhp cars in lobbies are abuse of the games code? Versus what the game allowed us to do 'as intended', it's the equivalent of wall-hacking (IMO)

Modding made tons of money for Halflife and Battlefield with no initial investment. Later, as the income rose, the publishers started pitching in cash to keep the modding community going.

This is a double edge sword. Good mods/hacks are good for a community, bad mods/hacks ruin one. Valve and EA police their servers to keep the bad stuff out mostly. Try playing COD: WAW excellent game ruined, but we all know how much activision care about anything other than their latest cash cow.

 

[brianwong]

You would have a point if on the back of the game box it didn't say..

"Unauthorized copying, adaption, rental, lending, distribution, extraction, access or use of this product or any of it's trademarks or copyright work that forms any part of this product are prohibited"

You need to extract info using external tools from the game and then adapt it to mod create these cars. That's two strikes right there.

Potentially this whole affair could be damaging to PD also, if manufacturers get wind PD has done nothing to stop cross-manufacturer swaps, they may not wish to work with them in the future. To many of them gaming is a branding exercise, having your car improved with a rival brands crate-engine portrays a negative image for their own engines. They won't like it, and that's the reason why you rarely, if ever, will see such a thing licensed in a game (in it's original content/code). You may say this is minor but this game is a huge brand in itself and as such gets huge exposure not only throughout the gaming world but inside the motor industry itself.

Wait so according to you the save file is the product that I bought? Not the game?

 

[I'm Motarded]

Wait so according to you the save file is the product that I bought? Not the game?

The game save is a part of the Sony Entertainment Network (SEN) services, with out them (Sony) and their hard and software there would be no game save, it's a service they provide to you. Yes you paid for it, but like many things in this industry we don't own it. Try claiming copyright on it. It's not according to me, it's according to sony. Read the link, specifically the section I posted above.

 

[Lock2Lock]

We do not own anything, Sony reserve the right to brick all your hardware if you do not abide by their rules or ask you to do it yourself via a lawyer.

8. LICENSE RESTRICTIONS AND CONDITIONS

Ummm you need to get your facts straight to what those TOS relates to.

All of those TOS topics where it talks about software/hardware modding is allowed. Once you bring it online that's when these TOS apply.

Once again as a example is the jailbreak trial with Sony vs George Hotz (aka Geohot).

After all of that ended the jailbroken PS3s were banned from getting online (aka logging into PSN). They were never bricked. The jailbreak has been working by people cracking into the systems off and on since. You want to know what that last PS3 system update fixed? It blocked the jailbreak that was working for the last few months. Never brick people's systems just once again stopped them from getting online.

You have every right to modify your system. Just you can modify the hardware/software and sell it. But once again you have every right to modify your system but once you bring it online (logging into PSN) that is when you are breaking the Sony TOS)

 

[I'm Motarded]

Ummm you need to get your facts straight to what those TOS relates to.

All of those TOS topics where it talks about software/hardware modding is allowed. Once you bring it online that's when these TOS apply.

Feel free to quote me on the facts I need to address. I said if you do not abide by their rules they are perfectly within their right to do what ever they please.

I had mentioned nothing about online vs offline, maybe I should have, kinda assumed that was obvious. It isn't really the offline activities that matter anyhow. Maybe bricked was the wrong term or too broad, bricked from going online is what I meant, even if they haven't done in the past they are within rights to block a console from the service.

Re: Hotz that little adventure ended up cost him a lot of money in the form of an out of court settlement? and agreement not to hack the console again? Sony isn't impressed with jailbreaking offline or not it seems

 

[arora]

I don't think they can just "do whatever they please"

Off line is also part of the equation because people could share cracked games, theoretically stealing money or whatever. That is a whole other debate for the pirates aargh...

 

[I'm Motarded]

You really do have to be precise with your words around here

"..do what ever they please with your use of their services."

 

[Lock2Lock]

Feel free to quote me on the facts I need to address. I said if you do not abide by their rules they are perfectly within their right to do what ever they please.

I had mentioned nothing about online vs offline, maybe I should have, kinda assumed that was obvious. It isn't really the offline activities that matter anyhow. Maybe bricked was the wrong term or too broad, bricked from going online is what I meant, even if they haven't done in the past they are within rights to block a console from the service.

Re: Hotz that little adventure ended up cost him a lot of money in the form of an out of court settlement? and agreement not to hack the console again? Sony isn't impressed with jailbreaking offline or not it seems

Yeah sorry i didn't know exactly what you meant by "bricked". When someone says "bricked" to me it means doesn't work at all. Sorry for the confusion. But yeah in that case you are correct. As many people know already Sony could take/treat this situation the same as the jailbreak

 

[I'm Motarded]

Yeah sorry i didn't know exactly what you meant

Don't worry about it, misunderstandings happen 👍

 

[Voodoovaj]

We do not own anything, Sony reserve the right to brick all your hardware if you do not abide by their rules or ask you to do it yourself via a lawyer.

8. LICENSE RESTRICTIONS AND CONDITIONS

They reserve the right, but there has to be something detrimental, meaning a loss of revenue or potential loss of revenue. I would not be surprised to see an increase in interest rather than a decrease, even though this is 2 years in and the revenue is waning anyway.

I meant the duping that PD tried to put an end to early on in the games life. I'm intrigued though, you don't think 10,000 bhp cars in lobbies are abuse of the games code? Versus what the game allowed us to do 'as intended', it's the equivalent of wall-hacking (IMO)

So you go online and race in unlimited rooms? What mechanism keeps cheating in check without server restrictions? What keeps someone from using an X1? Are you simply assuming massive horsepower cars can make it into races against regular powered cars?

I'm like many people and I race online in PP or horsepower limited rooms. Asshats get kicked for excessive track cutting or driving like jerks. No one with 10000hp would ever even make it onto the track because the server won't allow it, so again, what harm is there? My 550 cars are all under 500hp. The most extreme hacks, are under 400 horsepower. The cars are capable of more, but then they won't meet the regulations.

This is a double edge sword. Good mods/hacks are good for a community, bad mods/hacks ruin one. Valve and EA police their servers to keep the bad stuff out mostly. Try playing COD: WAW excellent game ruined, but we all know how much activision care about anything other than their latest cash cow.

I was a Creative Director at EA/DICE for 5 years. I know exactly how EA server policy works and I have a better than average grasp of community interaction (IMHO). Trust me when I say that if the problem was real rather than perceptual, there would have been a fix by now.

 

[Johnnypenso]

How did the 2nd round of the Social Experiment go last week? Did not realize you had a room up till the next day and saw post was edited with room#. Any PD supplied players?

Hopefully PD figures things out for GT6, but not by taking some of our freedom away. Share, Gift/Trading and External saves.

Had a few guys show up..had to leave to go to work for a while so was only open for an hour or so....had an interesting battle with my recently tuned SSR behemoth vs. a Zonda C12:idea: SSR isn't quite on the pace but it's so easy to drive and sounds great...looks good too.

Hang on, the jury is out on whether this has been abused. The only thing I have seen that was questionable is a very fast Ferrari 458 and the owner did not admit to modding it. By "fast" it was merely as fast as a well tuned LFA. After playing with the mods myself, I am inclined to believe that the car was merely well tuned.

Modding made tons of money for Halflife and Battlefield with no initial investment. Later, as the income rose, the publishers started pitching in cash to keep the modding community going.

If I were the exec. producer on this one, I would let this slide and support it behind the scenes. It allows the community to make cars that Sony doesn't need to pay for. It's all profit.

Generally speaking (not directed at you...lol) in Open lobbies a lot of guys who think they are fast, aren't really all that fast, and often they are quite inconsistent. You can have the worlds greatest LFA and still get beat by a smooth consistent driver in a great many cars. I suspect a lot of the guys crying foul are just getting beat by better drivers but now they have a scapegoat for not being good enough. If a guy in front of you has 3500 hp it's not hard to spot. If he's beating you without smoking the tires all the way around the track and going 0-400km/h in one second, chances are he's just a better driver/tuner..

As far as I can tell, outside of the easy to spot, outrageous HP mods that "break" the PP system, it still works. There is nothing you can do to a 458 or any other car that will not affect it's PP level. You can add grip, but you lose HP. You can add some HP, but you will have to give up grip to get it. You can drop a 1949 Volkswagen Beetle onto an RX8, but it's still only as fast as an RX-8. There may be minor tweaks here and there that maximize the effectiveness of levels of grip and power for given tracks but they won't make you seconds faster, more like tenths I suspect. If someone has figured out a way to tweak settings and make cars faster than the fastest cars at a given PP level I have yet to see it.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Generally speaking (not directed at you...lol) in Open lobbies a lot of guys who think they are fast, aren't really all that fast, and often they are quite inconsistent. You can have the worlds greatest LFA and still get beat by a smooth consistent driver in a great many cars. I suspect a lot of the guys crying foul are just getting beat by better drivers but now they have a scapegoat for not being good enough. If a guy in front of you has 3500 hp it's not hard to spot. If he's beating you without smoking the tires all the way around the track and going 0-400km/h in one second, chances are he's just a better driver/tuner..

Exactly. I stopped caring about guys bringing prototypes or racecars into street rooms because it's irrelevant. Those guys are usually the ones who think they are being clever. They just end up looking the fool. I haven't built anything that is faster than an LFA, but damn they are fun cars to drive and build.

I have a special in the works for the stance thread ..(Edit - never mind, apparently changes to the 2014 vette don't stick.)