Should PD have let the modding slide? ... OP Updated.

[brianblaze]

twitcher you are my hero... I swear real life and online life are handled so differently lol

 

[Third Reign]

I suggest everybody still thinking save-game modding is perfectly fine should grab their GT5 game box and read the first few lines at the bottom.

For those too lazy to grab their box:

The Important part:
"FOR HOME USE ONLY. This software is licensed for play on authorized PlayStation3 systems only. All unauthorized access, use or trade of this product or its underlying copyright and trademark works is prohibited..."

Following the software terms leads to:

http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-eula/ps3_eula_en.html
Section 2:
"You may not lease, rent, sublicense, publish, modify, adapt, or translate any portion of the System Software. To the fullest extent permitted by law, you may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble any portion of the System Software, or create any derivative works, or otherwise attempt to create System Software source code from its object code.You may not (i) use any unauthorized, illegal, counterfeit, or modified hardware or software in connection with the System Software, including use of tools to bypass, disable, or circumvent any encryption, security, or authentication mechanism for the PS3™ system; (ii) violate any laws, regulations or statutes, or rights of SCE, its affiliated companies, or third parties in connection with your access to or use of the System Software, including the access, use, or distribution of any software or hardware that you know or should have known to be infringing or pirated; (iii) use any hardware or software to cause the System Software to accept or use unauthorized, illegal, or pirated software or hardware; (iv) obtain the System Software in any manner other than through SCE's authorized distribution methods; or (v) exploit the System Software in any manner other than to use it in your PS3™ system in accordance with the accompanying documentation and with authorized software or hardware, including use of the System Software to design, develop, update, or distribute unauthorized software or hardware for use in connection with the PS3™ system for any reason. Without limiting the scope of SCE's remedies, any violation of these restrictions will void the PS3™ system's warranty and affect your ability to obtain warranty services and repair services from SCE or its affiliated companies."

Now tell me again what modders are doing is fine and they don't care? Just because it exploded to large scale does not make the action of editing game data any more legal. Just because cars can be modded with swaps in real life does not grant you permission to edit Sony's property. Guess what, if Carol Shelby would have sold his cars without permission from Ford and whoever else's parts he used, he would have faced a pretty awful lawsuit if you ask me.

Edited due to new posts:
You cannot mod the game because you legally agreed not to. Just because most people don't know they agree to some stuff does not mean they are free from guilt. If any car company would issue a patent on one of their cars that would prohibit you from modding it, it would be illegal to do so. For real cars no such thing exists, for GT5 game-save data it does.

LAWYERED!

 

[nealcropper]

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter wether its right or not, rules is rules. If you don't abide by them, then expect to pay the consequences.

 

[Lock2Lock]

@Twitch.

Totally agree. A lot of people forget that these creations have inspired some amazing things in the automotive industry.

And a lot of people say "it isn't right it will destroy the game" ect when in fact on many occasions Kaz himself has said he encourages people to do this sort of thing.

So what's right or wrong really doesn't matter the point is as long as it doesn't mess with leaderboards/online play he probably doesn't care.

@ Third Reign

This is to all of the people saying it is illegal to modify your system in general. It is not illegal. Nuff said.

 

[nealcropper]

@Twitch.

Totally agree. A lot of people forget that these creations have inspired some amazing things in the automotive industry.

And a lot of people say "it isn't right it will destroy the game" ect when in fact on many occasions Kaz himself has said he encourages people to do this sort of thing.

So what's right or wrong really doesn't matter the point is as long as it doesn't mess with leaderboards/online play he probably doesn't care.

Well the evidence suggests otherwise, his company has said that if your caught you will be banned. That says to me that he's bothered.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

I suggest everybody still thinking save-game modding is perfectly fine should grab their GT5 game box and read the first few lines at the bottom.

For those too lazy to grab their box:


The Important part:
"FOR HOME USE ONLY. This software is licensed for play on authorized PlayStation3 systems only. All unauthorized access, use or trade of this product or its underlying copyright and trademark works is prohibited..."

Following the software terms leads to:

http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-eula/ps3_eula_en.html
Section 2:
"You may not lease, rent, sublicense, publish, modify, adapt, or translate any portion of the System Software. To the fullest extent permitted by law, you may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble any portion of the System Software, or create any derivative works, or otherwise attempt to create System Software source code from its object code."

Now tell me again what modders are doing is fine and they don't care? Just because it exploded to large scale does not make the action of editing game data any more legal. Just because cars can be modded with swaps in real life does not grant you permission to edit Sony's property. Guess what, if Carol Shelby would have sold his cars without permission from Ford and whoever else's parts he used, he would have faced a pretty awful lawsuit if you ask me.

LAWYERED!

Don't care if save game modding is right or not. Honestly, I don't see why people keep bringing up the TOS. If hybrid makers gave a 🤬 about what it said, then I'm sure they wouldn't be messing with the game in the first place.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Well the evidence suggests otherwise, his company has said that if your caught you will be banned. That says to me that he's bothered.

Ok let's look at the evidence... What part of there actions when they did the ban and what they continue banning makes you think that they are talking about hybriding in general?

So far with the initial bann they removed people's times from the Online ranked seasonal events using hybrids. They also have banned/banning people using certain parts of the secret menu aka developer menu.

They have not and most likely will not bann people who are just using them in a way that doesn't mess with online community.

 

[Downhill Dino]

Don't care if save game modding is right or not. Honestly, I don't see why people keep bringing up the TOS. If hybrid makers gave a 🤬 about what it said, then I'm sure they wouldn't be messing with the game in the first place.

It's not whether they care or not, it's that some really believe they are permitted to do this and/or don't expect consequences.

 

[Griffith500]

The difference is, Carroll Shelby did not edit save files. He did not break an agreement relating to intellectual property.

GT5 is a driving simulator, not a car culture simulator.

Fun fact: "intellectual property" isn't property at all. It's deliberately designed language to get God fearing people on the side of monopolistic organisations and exclusionary governments by making an analogy between thoughts ("intellectual") and actual, physical property, which is utterly fallacious. If it weren't, we wouldn't need separate legislation for copyright and patents etc. because it would just have fallen under the existing property laws.
This kind of manipulation serves only to treat us like idiots.

Also, you still don't get to say what GT is and isn't.


One thing you did say that was useful, though, is that it's clear what the way forward is on this; it's for us to collaborate with PD on the best way to handle these mods (as Shelby did with AC cars, etc.), i.e. the end effect of things like engine swaps, not the current procedure required to achieve it (which is a bit of a faff). Because, like it or not, the same thing will eventually happen on PS4, so it's about time PD removed the need for "illicit"* behaviour in the majority of the playerbase, just to do a few simple things that it's easy enough to do to real cars (as well as a few outlandish things, but I've never driven a Group C car in real life).

Banning somebody for ruining somebody else's "experience" is all well and fine, of course; Sony, having taken money from customers, have a responsibility to provide a product according to any sensible sale of goods guidelines, so that is the only legal avenue (along with a few data protection issues of customers etc., I'd imagine) that Sony could pursue. Save game modding is not new, and has never been punished in the past. Neither is save game modding "deconstruction of the software". It's an external datafile, not code (well, there are a few SQL "code" things in the save, but that's not very useful without access to the database they were written for...).


I'm pretty sure that someone removing the wing from their Supra so they can take photos of it in game is not likely to ruin anyone else's play experience. Unless he takes it online and some person, whose sensibilities are so upset upon seeing it, vomits for a week, or something, but I suspect they might have deeper issues...



* which does not necessarily mean illegal, just "forbidden" - and an EULA is not a binding contract in any sense; if they meant illegal, they would have said illegal - more carefully chosen language for the easily impressed.
Also: "to the fullest extent of the law" is more of the same; just posturing. It's not even aimed at gamers, but people who seek to rip the game off to sell themselves.

Edit: I will not take legal advice from someone who calls himself Drittes Reich, Anglicised or not.
Edit: In the interest of transparency, whilst I was wrong in my interpretation of Third Reign's username (below), my mistake will remain (link removed for the protection of the ignorant).

 

[nealcropper]

Ok let's look at the evidence... What part of there actions when they did the ban and what they continue banning makes you think that they are talking about hybriding in general?

So far with the initial bann they removed people's times from the Online ranked seasonal events using hybrids. They also have banned/banning people using certain parts of the secret menu aka developer menu.

They have not and most likely will not bann people who are just using them in a way that doesn't mess with online community.

Look, there is no doubt that hybriding had been in GT for quite some time. But PD hasn't had a real way of dealing with it, untill now, the rights to intellectual property are there for a reason, and the laws that protect them also.

 

[Griffith500]

Look, there is no doubt that hybriding had been in GT for quite some time. But PD hasn't had a real way of dealing with it, untill now, the rights to intellectual property are there for a reason, and the laws that protect them also.

And what might they be?
I mean, you might have to explain this right to intellectual "property" - that's really fascinating.

 

[nealcropper]

And what might they be?
I mean, you might have to explain this right to intellectual "property" - that's really fascinating.

I don't profess to have all the answers, far from it. I do know however that PD has gotten fed up with people exploiting their games, and not keeping to the agreement that YOU ALL agreed to when purchasing and playing this game.

I can see that I am getting nowhere.

 

[Lock2Lock]

I don't profess to have all the answers, far from it. I do know however that PD has gotten fed up with people exploiting their games, and not keeping to the agreement that YOU ALL agreed to when purchasing and playing this game.

I can see that I am getting nowhere.

I understand what you are saying bro. But with all that has been done do far it looks like they are just focused on a few things. Which has been said on here and even tested.


Like i said before I give it a few more weeks. If nothing more happens then what is already happening. I am pretty certain nothing will happen

 

[Third Reign]

Edit: I will not take legal advice from someone who calls himself [wikipedia]Drittes Reich[/wikipedia], Anglicised or not.

Well color me surprised, I didn't even see this in my user name...

The way I derived this was actually quite different. There is this animated movie called "Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz" where a quote along the lines "the world is in an endless waltz of three steps; war, peace and rebellion". Another movie I quite liked was "Reign of Fire"

Rebellion is usually a common name used by users so I thought to change it up a bit by mixing up one of my favorite quotes from the movie and another's title. I am the third reign in the three step cycle of war peace and rebellion.

I would kindly ask you to remove this accusation, given my nationality, from your post.

 

[Griffith500]

I don't profess to have all the answers, far from it. I do know however that PD has gotten fed up with people exploiting their games, and not keeping to the agreement that YOU ALL agreed to when purchasing and playing this game.

I can see that I am getting nowhere.

I never agreed to anything; nothing legally binding. You know nothing about what PD is fed up with.

I do agree to treating others fairly, and I agree to banning sociopaths from the online experience, but not to the blind support of non-laws out of sheer fear.

Well color me surprised, I didn't even see this in my user name...

The way I derived this was actually quite different. There is this animated movie called "Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz" where a quote along the lines "the world is in an endless waltz of three steps; war, peace and rebellion". Another movie I quite liked was "Reign of Fire"

Rebellion is usually a common name used by users so I thought to change it up a bit by mixing up one of my favorite quotes from the movie and another's title. I am the third reign in the three step cycle of war peace and rebellion.

I would kindly ask you to remove this accusation, given my nationality, from your post.

Ha, looks like I've just done you a service, actually. I'll send you the bill.

I maintain that your legal advice is lacking, however, and your username, as you know, really is "Drittes Reich" in German (a fact), so it's less an "accusation" and more a false assumption on my part, as to its derivation (in all honesty, I just thought you were trying to be edgy - it was the only possible explanation in my mind for such an apparently brazen username).

It was perhaps lazy of me to use it to discredit your opinion, but I didn't make the connection until after I'd digested your post, and it initially saved me wasting time trying to do it with real words. Honestly, I was surprised by the connection, but thought it quite amusing given your nation's popularly touted "reputation" for rules, combined with your post's visibly vehement stance.

 

[ImprezaAddict]

I have now realized why modding is a sin.

An all wheel drive Prius with an LFA engine. I just deleted the user account I was using, I can't do this anymore.

 

[Lock2Lock]

I have now realized why modding is a sin.

An all wheel drive Prius with an LFA engine. I just deleted the user account I was using, I can't do this anymore.

Hahahahahahahahahaha what?

 

[ImprezaAddict]

Hahahahahahahahahaha what?

I made an AWD Prius using an LFA engine, GT-R chassis, and STi drivetrain. Quickly realized how wrong it is

 

[The Stig Farmer]

I made an AWD Prius using an LFA engine, GT-R chassis, and STi drivetrain. Quickly realized how wrong it is

Can't be that bad

 

[Lock2Lock]

I made an AWD Prius using an LFA engine, GT-R chassis, and STi drivetrain. Quickly realized how wrong it is

Not the most realistic thing I have seen but ok then.

 

[twitcher]

@Griffith500 - your posts are a breath of fresh air. Thank you!!

@Third Reigh - for someone who considers themselves a rebel, you sure do toe that corporate line pretty hard


This thread actually really scares the living bejeezus out of me. I can't count the number of times I've seen the arguement "Rules are rules, and we have to follow rules because...RULES!" in this thread. That is the most absurd crock of 🤬 I have ever heard. Rules, and laws, are nothing more than abstract concepts created by man, in order for one man to gain an aspect of control over another man. Rules are made by man, and can just as easily be unmade by man....actually, in today's legal system, it is much more difficult to unmake laws than it is to make them (hmmmm, I wonder why that is???).

As Griffith500 said, Intellectual Property laws are nothing more than legal mumbo-jumbo that has been drafted up by lawyers over the last 10 year. These laws were not created to protect or save anything - they were created to ensure as much profit as possible could be made off the virtual world. It's scary to see how many people openly bend over and accept these "laws" without questioning their morality, and the motivation behind their creation.

If there is anything to be gained by this Hybrid phenomenon, it is that this is a very clear demonstration of what the gaming community wants (extensive vehicle modding, not game save hacking). Instead of fighting against us, and banning people, PD should be working with the community to come up with ways that these features can be included in future installments of the franchise. As long as PD provides enough options and adjustable restrictions while creating an online lobby, there is no amount of vehicle modding that can "ruin the online experience". If there is an aspect of modding that a host doesn't like, they should have the option to simply ban that aspect from their room/lobby.

To those who say "It'll never happen, because Manufacturer XYZ would never allow it", you need to open your eyes and wake up to reality. If manufacturers actually cared about people swapping parts from one brand to another, they would have started taking legal action against thousands of people already.

I'll use the example of Ryan Tuerk. For those who don't know, Ryan is one of the more popular drivers on the North American Formula D circuit. Last year, his competition car was a Nissan S14 Silvia powered by a Chevy LS1, and his current street car is a Nissan 180SX powered by a Toyota 1JZ. Both of these cars are very much in the public eye, so it's not as though Ryan is some random Joe-Blow hiding in anonymity from the likes of Nissan, Chevy, and Toyota.

If any of these companies thought this type of swapping, or "hybriding" if you will, hurt their company image in any way, shape, or form, they would have sued the tits off Ryan (along with over half the entrants in any given FD event) a long time ago. However, in spite of the swapping, they know that at the end of the day, Ryan is providing good publicity for all three companies. It comes back to the old saying "There's no such thing as bad press". Perhaps I'm assuming too much, but if these vehicle manufacturers are OK with people doing swaps in real life, I have a hard time imagining they would have a problem with it happening in the virtual world.

That said, if there's a way to make a dime by either allowing or disallowing these actions in the virtual world, then I absolutely see car companies taking a vested interest. But if it's simply a matter of "protecting the company image", I don't see the car manufacturers giving a 🤬

 

[iainoflo85]

*snip*

Have you read Kant by any chance?

 

[Downhill Dino]

This thread actually really scares the living bejeezus out of me. I can't count the number of times I've seen the arguement "Rules are rules, and we have to follow rules because...RULES!" in this thread. That is the most absurd crock of 🤬 I have ever heard. Rules, and laws, are nothing more than abstract concepts created by man, in order for one man to gain an aspect of control over another man. Rules are made by man, and can just as easily be unmade by man....actually, in today's legal system, it is much more difficult to unmake laws than it is to make them (hmmmm, I wonder why that is???).

Rules are created for protection and order. Without it, nothing would work.

As Griffith500 said, Intellectual Property laws are nothing more than legal mumbo-jumbo that has been drafted up by lawyers over the last 10 year. These laws were not created to protect or save anything - they were created to ensure as much profit as possible could be made off the virtual world. It's scary to see how many people openly bend over and accept these "laws" without questioning their morality, and the motivation behind their creation.

No, they were not made for profit. It was to protect the product of the inventor.

 

[starshipenterz]

*snip*

/thread.

 

[thewheelman83]

Have you read Kant by any chance?

Have you read Confucius by the way?

 

[twitcher]

Rules are created for protection and order.

There are many different interpretations of why rules exist. Clearly, we have different opinions.

Look don't get me wrong, I'm not an anarchist. We need some rules and laws to have a functional and productive society. I just think too many people accept any and all rules simply because they are rules, and don't take the time to question the reasoning behind the rules.

Without it, nothing would work.

Correction, nothing would work the way it does right now. Things would still "work", just in a very different way than you are used to.

No, they were not made for profit. It was to protect the product of the inventor.

It was to protect the product of the inventor....so he could make money off of the product....

If you're only concern is to protect the integrity of the "inventor", as you call it, then all that needs to be done is to give credit where credit is due.

If you want to protect the "inventor's" ability to control who can use his product and for what purpose, give him the "right" to charge a royalty to anyone who uses his product, and also give him the ability to sue anyone who uses his product in a manner other than he allows, then you need intellectual property laws.

Ask yourself this (purely theoretical...a moral question) does anyone need permission from, or pay royalties to the estate of the person who "invented" the wheel each time a wheel is used? Should anyone?



Sorry, way off topic...I'll stop now

Have you read Kant by any chance?

No not really. I know of him, but I've never really read any of his work in any detail.

 

[DEATHSARTHE]

I think they should let it slide. I'd love to have a 1,000hp Charger with some fat radials. Imagine the drag races if we could modify every part of the car, substitute values from other models like in GT3.

I remember in GT3 I had a 1,500hp C5 with a twin turbocharged C5-R engine and C5-R chassis and a blow off valve. So god damn epic. It wasn't over powered either, barely did 250mph if I remember correctly.

Would really bring in some technical depth in some of these online rooms. I think everyone is tried of the same old 300hp Civic, time for a change. If you don't like the 3,000hp Civic, then vote to kick or kick them out. Personally I don't like the X1, I think its an abomination but if its in game then we should be able to have our own abominations too.

 

[Fraternity187]

They have to let it slide since I love my hacked cars and many other people love theirs too.

 

[Nismo34]

They have to let it slide since I love my hacked cars and many other people love theirs too.

No, that doesnt mean they have to, and obviously they arent letting it slide.

 

[Fraternity187]

No, that doesnt mean they have to, and obviously they arent letting it slide.

Mate. I'm saying they should.