Should PD have let the modding slide? ... OP Updated.

[Voodoovaj]

Oh ok, just making sure

Mod tool yes but not a hybrid at all. Engine tune and weight reduction values are borrowed from the 06 z06. The tune and weight reduction of all cars is just a multiplier applied to the base value. All cars have specific values, but there is no reason those multiplier can't be exactly the same since the starting point is different

Also, the exhaust sound is part of the engine tune file, and considering that my C7 has it's own unique exhaust note after the upgrade, the sound file is either already in the game or the engine sound is created without mufflers and the filters are applied to it.

Beyond that, I simply tuned the suspension and transmission, since all transmission and suspension files are simply a limited set of ranged values. There was no file swap needed.

This is why I'm so adamant that modding is not a crime. What I did is no different that what can be done to all the other cars in the game.

 

[Downhill Dino]

Look don't get me wrong, I'm not an anarchist. We need some rules and laws to have a functional and productive society. I just think too many people accept any and all rules simply because they are rules, and don't take the time to question the reasoning behind the rules.

Such as?

Correction, nothing would work the way it does right now. Things would still "work", just in a very different way than you are used to.

Without order, there is chaos. Without rules, there's no penalty for wrong doings. It wouldn't work.

If you're only concern is to protect the integrity of the "inventor", as you call it, then all that needs to be done is to give credit where credit is due.

If you want to protect the "inventor's" ability to control who can use his product and for what purpose, give him the "right" to charge a royalty to anyone who uses his product, and also give him the ability to sue anyone who uses his product in a manner other than he allows, then you need intellectual property laws.

Yes, I understand that. That's what this is all about.

Ask yourself this (purely theoretical...a moral question) does anyone need permission from, or pay royalties to the estate of the person who "invented" the wheel each time a wheel is used? Should anyone?

Was the wheel intellectual property? No.

 

[NFSCARBON1]

Also, the exhaust sound is part of the engine tune file, and considering that my C7 has it's own unique exhaust note after the upgrade, the sound file is either already in the game or the engine sound is created without mufflers and the filters are applied to it.

I believe that for many cars this is the case. If you engine swap race engines into road cars with stock exhausts the sound is muffled and quiet, while sports and semi racing make it louder and Racing brings back the original sound

 

[Lock2Lock]

I believe that for many cars this is the case. If you engine swap race engines into road cars with stock exhausts the sound is muffled and quiet, while sports and semi racing make it louder and Racing brings back the original sound

That's because If the car/engine you put in has the racing exhaust on default it has to have that exhaust to hear it

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's because If the car/engine you put in has the racing exhaust on default it has to have that exhaust to hear it

In other words, if the engine you are putting into a car only has racing exhaust as an exhaust option, as most racing motors do, then only racing exhaust will work after you put it into the new car, because that motor doesn't have a sound associated with it with any other exhaust system.

 

[Lock2Lock]

In other words, if the engine you are putting into a car only has racing exhaust as an exhaust option, as most racing motors do, then only racing exhaust will work after you put it into the new car, because that motor doesn't have a sound associated with it with any other exhaust system.

Yep. But it has the same sound just you can barley hear it

 

[NFSCARBON1]

Yep. But it has the same sound just you can barley hear it

Yes exactly, but it appears the volume and clearness off the sound is on a sliding scale.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Yes exactly, but it appears the volume and clearness off the sound is on a sliding scale.

True

 

[KraigA]

Hi guys. This is off topic but I got a notification from a moderator on here advising that someone had created an imposter account which has now been banned. That fraternity187 account has no link to me or my channel.

If I am going to add my two cents on the subject, I would say hybrids should be ok for offline use only and should not be allowed online - as I can while appreciate that immature ones would ruin the online experience by joining non hybrid lobbies, ruining it for everyone... A ban is a bit harsh, they should patch the issue instead IMO.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Hi guys. This is off topic but I got a notification from a moderator on here advising that someone had created an imposter account which has now been banned. That fraternity187 account has no link to me or my channel.

If I am going to add my two cents on the subject, I would say hybrids should be ok for offline use only and should not be allowed online - as I can while appreciate that immature ones would ruin the online experience by joining non hybrid lobbies, ruining it for everyone... A ban is a bit harsh, they should patch the issue instead IMO.

Yeah you can thank SlipZtrEm for that one.

 

[KraigA]

Yeah you can thank SlipZtrEm for that one.

It was slip who messaged me. Thanks.

 

[twitcher]

Such as?

Are you seriously asking for examples, either past or present, of unjust laws that were or should be overturned????? If that is indeed what you are asking for, I strongly encourage you to read a few history books, and/or start paying closer attention to modern politics.

Past examples:
- Slavery laws
- Women's voting rights
- Prohibition of alcohol
- Burning "witches"
.....I could go on and on and

Present examples:
- Citizens United
- same sex marriage
- abortion laws
- prohibition of marijuana (I'm probably going to catch flak for mentioning this one....but if anyone has the intellectual capacity to actually do their own research into the issue, and do more than accept current retorhic at face value, you will quickly see that the current debate is not simply about stopping a bunch of pothead-hippies from getting high, but rather that it's about big business. The legalization of marijuana threatens several multi-billion dollar per year industries...one of the biggest, and perhaps the most threatened, being the pulp and paper industry.)

Laws and rules are a dynamic entity...they are constantly changing based on the experiences of the people who make them and those who are forced to live under them.

Without order, there is chaos. Without rules, there's no penalty for wrong doings. It wouldn't work.

Again, things would not work the way they do now. If there were different, or no human created laws, that doesn't mean that everything would cease to exist. Like I said, things would just be very very different than the paradigm we currently live in.

And just because there would be "no rules", that doesn't mean there wouldn't be consequences for one's actions.

Yes, I understand that. That's what this is all about.

So you're saying its ok for one person, or corporation to have monopolistic control over a specific aspect of human innovation??

Was the wheel intellectual property? No.

/facepalm. To me, this demostrates that you don't really understand the concept of intellectual property.

I'm not going to sit here and claim that the wheel was discovered by one individual person. In reality, there were more than likely multiple people, at different times, and in different locations who discovered the concept of "the wheel".

But for arguement's sake, let's pretend the wheel was invested by one individual. If that was the case, then yes, at one point in time, the concept of the wheel was that person's intellectual property. However, after introducing the concept to the whole of human conscientiousness, that individual losses the ability to control who can use the wheel, and for purpose.

Of course, if intellectual property laws had existed when the wheel was "invented", then this individual could have had monopolistic control of the wheel. Ask yourself, would that have been a good thing? Try to imagine how much human innovation would have been hindered by this.

According to current definitions, "intellectual property" is basically anything and everything the human imagination can conceptualize.

At one point in time, MLK's "I have a dream" speach was MLK's intellectual property. However, after giving the speach, MLK lost the ability to control who else can use those words. Anyone can quote MLK, and no one has to pay him or his estate a dime for using his words.

At one point in time, Einstein's Theory of Relativity was his intellectual property. Again, after introducing the theory to the collective human conscience, Einstein lost the ability to control who could use and/or expand on his theory, and for what means.

All of human innovation is based off of the principle of one person or group combining devices, objects, concepts, and ideas that have already been conceptualizer by previous generations. I can quite confidently say that NO ONE in the history of humanity has looked at the Periodic Table of Elements and simply said "I'm gonna make something out of this stuff".

I firmly believe in the idea of charging a price or fee for physical goods, and/or for services rendered. But to try to charge a fee for someone else to use an idea, concept, shape, colour, etc is 🤬 absurd!

 

[Griffith500]

Yep. But it has the same sound just you can barley hear it

That's the "engine" sound, which never changes with tuning. I notice with the Asparadrink RX7, there's even a little bit of intake mixed in (not unsurprising for a rotary...).

In fact it's a good way to audition the separate sounds, and can be educational in terms of learning how they interact to make the whole sound.

There is a similar issue with turbocharged cars. Putting a turbo motor in an NA car and forgetting, or omitting, to copy the turbo over as well will usually result in no exhaust sound (the engine sound will remain, again.) So basically turbocharged cars have no samples assigned to them for NA running, and presumably NA cars (well, their engines) that can't be turbocharged won't have any turbo samples assigned to them (I've not verified this.)

It's nice to have this kind of control over the sounds to figure out how they work. Now to find the most constructive way to use this information...

 

[Tornado]

I noticed that too. It's strange that the turbocharging is now assigned to the specific car rather than the engine/parts combination like it was in previous games.

 

[Lock2Lock]

That's the "engine" sound, which never changes with tuning. I notice with the Asparadrink RX7, there's even a little bit of intake mixed in (not unsurprising for a rotary...).

In fact it's a good way to audition the separate sounds, and can be educational in terms of learning how they interact to make the whole sound.

There is a similar issue with turbocharged cars. Putting a turbo motor in an NA car and forgetting, or omitting, to copy the turbo over as well will usually result in no exhaust sound (the engine sound will remain, again.) So basically turbocharged cars have no samples assigned to them for NA running, and presumably NA cars (well, their engines) that can't be turbocharged won't have any turbo samples assigned to them (I've not verified this.)

It's nice to have this kind of control over the sounds to figure out how they work. Now to find the most constructive way to use this information...

Yep. I never said it did change the sound.


And i am very familiar how that engine sounds.

I did a swap in my Enfini rx-7 and when you have anything else besides the racing exhaust. Then it is like you turned down the auto just from the car and you can hear everything else (to about a 20/80 scale).

 

[Downhill Dino]

Are you seriously asking for examples, either past or present, of unjust laws that were or should be overturned????? If that is indeed what you are asking for, I strongly encourage you to read a few history books, and/or start paying closer attention to modern politics.

Past examples:
...

Present examples:
...

That all seems pretty irrelevant to me.

Again, things would not work the way they do now. If there were different, or no human created laws, that doesn't mean that everything would cease to exist. Like I said, things would just be very very different than the paradigm we currently live in.

I never stated there would be a ceasing of existence.

And just because there would be "no rules", that doesn't mean there wouldn't be consequences for one's actions.

Consequences derive from rules.

So you're saying its ok for one person, or corporation to have monopolistic control over a specific aspect of human innovation??

I really don't see why not.

/facepalm. To me, this demostrates that you don't really understand the concept of intellectual property.

It's new to me.

Snip of that last bit.

They weren't claimed under copyright so that's why you can use their work/words, besides, you at least need to cite your sources.

 

[C53A 4G63T]

I would ike to comment on the 1300hp unrealistic because most people can not afford that argument.

On the same logic, I can only afford one house, so does this mean I should only play The Sims and not touch SimCity?

 

[Griffith500]

I noticed that too. It's strange that the turbocharging is now assigned to the specific car rather than the engine/parts combination like it was in previous games.

The sounds are tied to the engine code, otherwise engine swaps wouldn't sound different - indeed, you can swap in an engine, buy and fit a new exhaust and it has the swapped in engine's sound for that exhaust, not the original engine's.

I don't know how it used to work in previous games, though, as I never had the hardware to try it. The exhaust parts on the swapped car have the same code as the normal, unswapped car, but the sound is different, if that's what you meant.

Yep. I never said it did change the sound.


And i am very familiar how that engine sounds.

I did a swap in my Enfini rx-7 and when you have anything else besides the racing exhaust. Then it is like you turned down the auto just from the car and you can hear everything else (to about a 20/80 scale).

I'm not sure if we're misunderstanding each other here, but I meant the exhaust sound is totally silent when you pick an engine that doesn't have the fitted parts assigned to it. It is only the exhaust sound that changes (either with different exhaust parts, or with turbocharging of NA cars); the engine sound samples are constant for a given engine, which is why that's all you can hear when you "break" the car's sound in that manner.

I.e. the reason it sounds "the same but quieter" is because only half of the sound is playing.

 

[Lock2Lock]

@ Griffith500

Yeah we were sorry about that. I was adding to what you were saying. Hahahaha all good.

And you are correct on all of that

 

[Tornado]

The sounds are tied to the engine code, otherwise engine swaps wouldn't sound different - indeed, you can swap in an engine, buy and fit a new exhaust and it has the swapped in engine's sound for that exhaust, not the original engine's.

I don't know how it used to work in previous games, though, as I never had the hardware to try it. The exhaust parts on the swapped car have the same code as the normal, unswapped car, but the sound is different, if that's what you meant.

No, you're right. I confused myself. It was the exhausts that were handled differently in the previous games. Not turbos. Turbo noises weren't tied to the engine, and were instead tied to the separate Turbo part category.

 

[Griffith500]

@ Griffith500

Yeah we were sorry about that. I was adding to what you were saying. Hahahaha all good.

And you are correct on all of that

No, you're right. I confused myself. It was the exhausts that were handled differently in the previous games. Not turbos. Turbo noises weren't tied to the engine, and were instead tied to the separate Turbo part category.

It's cool, I've just spent a bit of time trying to figure out if you can swap sounds without swapping engines. You can't, which sucks. PD need to add that as a feature, a full-on sound designer for your car. Choose resonators, manifold style, x-pipes, silencer style and sound etc. etc.

That's one thing that's been good about the hybriding, is seeing just what's missing from the game. But the inability to try what I wanted means I can't as easily "show PD" what I want...

 

[The Stig Farmer]

It's cool, I've just spent a bit of time trying to figure out if you can swap sounds without swapping engines. You can't, which sucks. PD need to add that as a feature, a full-on sound designer for your car. Choose resonators, manifold style, x-pipes, silencer style and sound etc. etc.

Can imagine that in GT6. Sounds like the kind of thing PD would rather do than model cars

 

[Griffith500]

Can imagine that in GT6. Sounds like the kind of thing PD would rather do than model cars

Technically, I already have one, it just doesn't sound very good, is hideously unoptimised and is as user-friendly as a cactus door-handle. However, the fact that I made it must mean PD could do it easily, and they wouldn't even have to take modelers away from modeling to force them to make a GUI to fit the DSP stuff they'd have to code and tune...

 

[Lock2Lock]

It's cool, I've just spent a bit of time trying to figure out if you can swap sounds without swapping engines. You can't, which sucks. PD need to add that as a feature, a full-on sound designer for your car. Choose resonators, manifold style, x-pipes, silencer style and sound etc. etc.

That's one thing that's been good about the hybriding, is seeing just what's missing from the game. But the inability to try what I wanted means I can't as easily "show PD" what I want...

Totally agree. And i have tried too.

 

[iainoflo85]

I never stated there would be a ceasing of existence.

You implied that without laws and rules the world would not function. How did we survive this long, when we didn't have law and order in the very beginning?

Consequences derive from rules.

No, consequences derive from actions - going back to Kant again. Without rules there would still be consequences. But without the legal system people could do some things without consequences, doesn't mean they are both reliant on the other.

It's new to me.

It's a fairly recent law to try and protect the rights of an artist or creator of something that is not tangible. Theft could not be called because stealing is dependent on a physical object, not something abstract like a concept.

They weren't claimed under copyright so that's why you can use their work/words, besides, you at least need to cite your sources.

Yes, you learn how to do citations in College/University, not everyone has been, though. But for the general public to quote Martin Luther King, not knowing who he was or what he stood for is simply naive, nothing wrong with that, but is not a breach of intellectual property anymore because he's no longer with us, but also because it's too late for his words to have the revolutionary effect they had when he spoke them. Ideas only have meaning in a certain context, that context has passed with legislation and laws, as well as the shifting social consciousness, so there should be no necessity to know that Martin Luther King said "I have a dream" as that statement has no power anymore, they're just words.

 

[Downhill Dino]

You implied that without laws and rules the world would not function. How did we survive this long, when we didn't have law and order in the very beginning?

I said it could result in chaos. I did not say, nor imply that the world wouldn't function. You're taking things out of context.

 

[KinLM]

Yes, you learn how to do citations in College/University, not everyone has been, though. But for the general public to quote Martin Luther King, not knowing who he was or what he stood for is simply naive, nothing wrong with that, but is not a breach of intellectual property anymore because he's no longer with us, but also because it's too late for his words to have the revolutionary effect they had when he spoke them. Ideas only have meaning in a certain context, that context has passed with legislation and laws, as well as the shifting social consciousness, so there should be no necessity to know that Martin Luther King said "I have a dream" as that statement has no power anymore, they're just words.

Whenever I hear his speech, it inspires me to help this world like he did.

It still makes my hair stand on end.

It wrenches at my heart. It's an incredibly powerful speech.

Even if his speech doesn't mean anything for equal rights anymore, even if his speech doesn't mean anything to its original intended cause, I would have to disagree that "It's just words."

Anything that can inspire somebody is more than just words.

They're quite special words. Strong metaphors and eloquent flow, they still can do alot today.

His speech gives people the feeling that you can stand up for what you believe in in this world and to go out and make your voice heard. Any words that can do that are pretty special words.

 

[Stavingo]

This thread has turned into some Law & Order show with all the talking about the TOS

 

[thelvynau]

This thread has turned into some Law & Order show with all the talking about the TOS

You think thats bad go have a look at the comments in the news post.

Some interesting comments there.

 

[twitcher]

I said it could result in chaos. I did not say, nor imply that the world wouldn't function. You're taking things out of context.

Ummm?

Rules are created for protection and order. Without it, nothing would work

Without order, there is chaos. Without rules, there's no penalty for wrong doings. It wouldn't work.

First, you didn't provide any context to begin with, so I can only interpret your words in the literal sense.

Second, you did in fact imply, and say, that "without rules, nothing would function" (paraphrased a little there, sorry).

I'm too exhausted to reply to the rest of your posts...

Dino/Dreamer, this isn't the first time you and I have "conversed", so I've started to notice a pattern in many of your posts. You tend to make very short, undescriptive, one or two sentence posts, and then expect people to know exactly what you mean, and in what context. It's difficult to know what you mean at the best of times.

Anyways, I'm done with you and with this thread I don't think I care to reply to you anymore, as every time we've had a conversation, I've walked away with a headache from all the Have a nice life 👍