Should PD have let the modding slide? ... OP Updated.

[Voodoovaj]

I just want to add this tidbit. I've found the the BMW M3 CSL is the most flexible chassis out there.

It turns out that a few of the cars have had their dimensions created so that the wheelbase matches instead of mismatching as they do in reality. The
69 z/28, 70 Mustang Transcammer, 71 mustang, and the 07 M3 all accept the CSL chassis nicely. I'm going to keep looking for more.

As one might guess, considering how good the CSL is, this creates some more top notch cars that can come close to keeping pace with the CSL. You could say that rather than creating an "unfair advantage", this find creates a more level playing field.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I just want to add this tidbit. I've found the the BMW M3 CSL is the most flexible chassis out there.

It turns out that a few of the cars have had their dimensions created so that the wheelbase matches instead of mismatching as they do in reality. The
69 z/28, 70 Mustang Transcammer, 71 mustang, and the 07 M3 all accept the CSL chassis nicely. I'm going to keep looking for more.

As one might guess, considering how good the CSL is, this creates some more top notch cars that can come close to keeping pace with the CSL. You could say that rather than creating an "unfair advantage", this find creates a more level playing field.

Good to know:tup:👍 And as you point, out, it only makes those cars competitive with the already competitive CSL..only adding more cars, appearance wise at least, that are competitive in PP racing. I'd call that a WIN/WIN!!!

 

[Voodoovaj]

Good to know:tup:👍 And as you point, out, it only makes those cars competitive with the already competitive CSL..only adding more cars, appearance wise at least, that are competitive in PP racing. I'd call that a WIN/WIN!!!

Oh, it's more than appearance. Different engine, aero, etc, still results in a different car. Definite win

 

[alonsof1fan91]

Hybrid defense force still kicking

So you guys think that the PP scales correctly by hybriding and changing the drive train and suspension of a car? Good to know. I admit that a 580PP BRZ with just increased HP could work (eventhough im sure only the 458 and R35 could compete with it), but Im sure it would dominate at 550PP and a crazy SL 55 AMG hybrid with less weight (so you can fix its bad balance without raising its weight too much) and a different suspension could do wonders.
My point is, with hybriding you can optimize your car on a level "legit" users can not. If im to join a 550PP road car race, I can only change its hp/weight/balance/aero (all stats very limited) to influence its PP rating.

But this is not my biggest problem with hybriding...

Hybrid are/will cause alot of trouble for PDs future games.

1: PD has to spend alot of man power and/or money to prevent hybriding in future GT games. GT6 is very late in its development cycle, it will be very difficult to change things without pushing GT6s release date into late 2013 or early 2014. PS4 will come this year. No matter on which console GT6 will release, a too late launch would hurt Sony/PD. And Im sure money and man power spend for this could be used in other areas.
Maybe Im wrong and PD isn't working on this, but this could mean hybriding from day 1 onwards. I will definitely not buy GT6 at launch. I will sit it out and see how they handled hybriding, which has ruined GT5 online mode for me.
2. Car manufacturers don't want people to hybrid their cars. We got the C7 because PD and GM signed a special deal. There is a reason why we can not tune the C7, but people could theoretically mod it now. Then we have other stuff like the Red Bull 5G which only released in japan so far and DLC paints which people can steal now. This could all lead into legal issues for PD. Yes I know there was hybriding in older GT games, but not on this scale.
3. Hybriding will make it more difficult for PD to get new car manufacturers (Porsche!) or new models for manufacturers, who were present in GT5. I doubt that Ferrari wants gamers to screw around with the LaFerrari by changing its engine or colour (If PD disables painting for this one).



I hope tuning and car costumization is going to improve in GT6, so people can change engines etc without hacking the game...

 

[Wyatt L]

It's possible to have Super Sticky Racing tires, I've seen them. I know there are gamers out there that will cheat at every chance. The fact is these hacked cars have been here for quite a while. When a Nascar can beat a full room by seventeen seconds consistently in an 11 lap race, somebody's cheating. That was over a year ago.

Ironically, many of the cars in the GranTurismo.com online photo share are slammed hacks. The feature photo is a hacked Cuda, I know, I have one...

 

[Voodoovaj]

So you guys think that the PP scales correctly by hybriding and changing the drive train and suspension of a car? Good to know. I admit that a 580PP BRZ with just increased HP could work (eventhough im sure only the 458 and R35 could compete with it), but Im sure it would dominate at 550PP and a crazy SL 55 AMG hybrid with less weight (so you can fix its bad balance without raising its weight too much) and a different suspension could do wonders.
My point is, with hybriding you can optimize your car on a level "legit" users can not. If im to join a 550PP road car race, I can only change its hp/weight/balance/aero (all stats very limited) to influence its PP rating.

I was on the other side of the fence at first, but rather than stand my ground on an opinion with no knowledge of the facts, I chose to try it and educate myself on the reality of the situation.

Your theory that a BRZ would dominate 550 has already been proven wrong. There are plenty out there and they are decent cars, but they are not dominant. There are fewer "crazy SL 55" because their torque will always be a disadvantage unless the engine is swapped.

As for not being available to legit drivers, it's a weak position. It was actually my position as well. However, it's so easy to do that I can't believe anyone couldn't do it if they wanted to.

At the end of the day, I want this feature either built into the game or have an official tool released. It makes the game better.

 

[Tornado]

So you guys think that the PP scales correctly by hybriding and changing the drive train and suspension of a car? Good to know. I admit that a 580PP BRZ with just increased HP could work (eventhough im sure only the 458 and R35 could compete with it), but Im sure it would dominate at 550PP

And I'm sure you have no basis to say that. How would it dominate in a PP level that the same cars that compete at 580PP can (and frequently do) also compete in, plus a bunch of other extremely dominate cars besides? The R35s almost all start under 550PP, the F430 Scuderia starts damn close to 550PP, the Vipers almost all start under 550PP, the BMW M3 CSL can reach 550PP, the NSX-R can reach 550PP, the Evora can reach 550PP, etc. You can also probably chop the 458 down to 550 without damaging much in the way of its dominance.

A 550PP BreezeFrees is suddenly going to start walking away from all those?

1: PD has to spend alot of man power and/or money to prevent hybriding in future GT games. GT6 is very late in its development cycle, it will be very difficult to change things without pushing GT6s release date into late 2013 or early 2014. PS4 will come this year. No matter on which console GT6 will release, a too late launch would hurt Sony/PD. And Im sure money and man power spend for this could be used in other areas.

No they don't. All they would have to do is encrypt the saves beyond the standard protection built into the PS3, so decryption tools used when hacking a PS3 system can't be used so easily. They could even make it so the system auto backups like GT5 does, and you can only physically copy that from the PS3 rather than the actual save. If GT6 is a PS4 game, the issue is moot anyway.

2. Car manufacturers don't want people to hybrid their cars. We got the C7 because PD and GM signed a special deal. There is a reason why we can not tune the C7, but people could theoretically mod it now. Then we have other stuff like the Red Bull 5G which only released in japan so far and DLC paints which people can steal now. This could all lead into legal issues for PD. Yes I know there was hybriding in older GT games, but not on this scale.

On what scale? Hybriding in past GT games did allow people access to cars that were specific region only, like the Nomad Diablo in GT3; only in that case it was because they weren't allowed to have the Diablo in American copies of the game rather than just arbitrarily limiting it. Or on the scale where people were able to access cars that PD had absolutely no right to even have in the game at all, like in GT3?


Because I imagine certain automakers were a lot more pissed about, say, the fully modeled and functional Porsche 911 that PD didn't have a licence for but people starting hybriding in American and Japanese copies of GT3 for no other reason than to access it.

3. Hybriding will make it more difficult for PD to get new car manufacturers (Porsche!) or new models for manufacturers, who were present in GT5. I doubt that Ferrari wants gamers to screw around with the LaFerrari by changing its engine or colour (If PD disables painting for this one).

FM4 and FM3 have plenty of Porsches and plenty of Ferraris and there are no restrictions on painting them and very few restrictions on engine swaps (no more than any other brand).


The "manufacturers hate hybriding so much that they will pull licences" argument was never anything more than a complete guess. You're also assuming that future cars that the series might not even get will have the same pointless restrictions as the C7 Corvette.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Hybrid defense force still kicking

So you guys think that the PP scales correctly by hybriding and changing the drive train and suspension of a car? Good to know. I admit that a 580PP BRZ with just increased HP could work (eventhough im sure only the 458 and R35 could compete with it), but Im sure it would dominate at 550PP and a crazy SL 55 AMG hybrid with less weight (so you can fix its bad balance without raising its weight too much) and a different suspension could do wonders.
My point is, with hybriding you can optimize your car on a level "legit" users can not. If im to join a 550PP road car race, I can only change its hp/weight/balance/aero (all stats very limited) to influence its PP rating.
...snip the rest......

Like Voodoo, I was also on the other side of the fence. Then I took the bull by the horns mainly because I wanted to prove what you're saying above. That with a little swapping around I could make an unbeatable car at given PP levels. Hasn't happened. Made a lot of good cars, 50 or so trackworthy, fun to drive, great handling cars, but nothing that is better than the best cars at the usual PP levels. That's a fact.

Educate yourself or keep an open mind. This has nothing to do with being defensive and everything to do with discovering facts and falsifying rumours and speculation.

 

[TouGeMonster33]

Completely agree.I had a AE86 made for me with a Mugen F20c and im positive its slower than the stock Takumi 86.Sounds EPIC tho and its hell of fun.Point being..Stop bashing real Tuners/hackers/modders whatever you want to call them.Have someone make you one and im 100% positive you'll love it.

 

[twitcher]

It's interesting to see how most of those who are opposed to hybrids are those who have not tried them for themselves yet....or they tried the 3000hp civic, said "This is stupid, hybrids ruin the game," and form their whole opinion off of that small experience. The amount of false information surrounding hybrids is really quite funny.

I think another thing that deters people from trying hybrids is that they have the idea in their head that they need to be a master "hacker" in order to build them....when in reality, if you have a USB stick and entry level computer skills, anyone can make hybrids. If you can run a Facebook page, you can build a hybrid. I think too many people feel that hybrids are unfair because they are beyond their own reach, when really, anyone can make them with minimal effort.

The idea that car manufacturers have an issue with hybrids is nothin more than speculation.

And I keep seeing a recurring arguement being made in regards to painting certain cars. The statement is usually along the lines of "You think Ferrari wants kids painting their masterpieces in stupid colours....??" Have these people played GT5?? Or any other game for that matter? There's nothing stopping anyone from painting their Enzo lime green. In games with a livery editor, there's nothing stopping people from putting a "Ferrari sucks my 🤬" on their Lamborghini, or even on their Ferrari if they want

I don't condone the idea of using "hacking" to unlock DLC conten withou paying for it...except for paints. The whole idea that we had to pay for paint chips that technically, you can only use once, is a scam. There's a simple way to prevent people from stealing paint chips....give us a livery editor and let us create our own colours for crying out loud

 

[CodeRedR51]

It's possible to have Super Sticky Racing tires, I've seen them. I know there are gamers out there that will cheat at every chance....

You can see that they are using them in the replay.

 

[Voodoovaj]

You can see that they are using them in the replay.

You can even see that they have them equipped when you highlight their name before the race.

 

[montez34]

I found another really good swap, Red Bull 2010 chassis under a Ferrari F2007, 10, and FGT, it makes these cars handle like a dream. It gives similar handling to a Red Bull without the twitchiness, it's much more forgiving than the original chassis, and just a lot of fun to drive.

 

[chug-a-bug]

All they would have to do is encrypt the saves beyond the standard protection built into the PS3, so decryption tools used when hacking a PS3 system can't be used so easily.

There is already 2 layers of encryption on a savegame, it might take longer to crack but someone will get there in the end. Cryptography experts see it as a challenge even if they have no interest in anything beyond that.

 

[Lock2Lock]

There is already 2 layers of encryption on a savegame, it might take longer to crack but someone will get there in the end. Cryptography experts see it as a challenge even if they have no interest in anything beyond that.

Yep. Just like the jailbreak broken PS3s being able to get online. It has been patched three times in the last six months. That means that the encryption to log into there servers was cracked three times in the last six months. It was recently patched again in the last PS3 system update. It is just a matter of time till it is cracked again. Same situation with the save data.

There have already been ways to decrypt and resign your save data without Sony finding out you are doing it. That software you can get for about $20. I used to own that software.

 

[roflcoptor]

There have already been ways to decrypt and resign your save data without Sony finding out you are doing it. That software you can get for about $20. I used to own that software.

There is free software out there now, to do this.

 

[Lock2Lock]

There is free software out there now, to do this.

I know that bro.

I was making a point about how many times there has been software that has been patched and cracked over and over again.

You miss understood my post. All good though.

 

[Dry7123]

Wouldn't Sony/PD be contradicting themselves even IF they were going to try and let the modding slide? It's weird how people forget so quickly that "modding" in any form, is going against the licensing agreement you made when you bought the game & the system, no matter how little damage you think you're doing. Sorry to say but if you're hoping for PD to condone hacking on their own game then you're in for some bad news.

 

[Tornado]

Considering people who are hybriding are reminded of how bad they are for breaking the licencing agreement every other day, I don't think anyone has forgotten it.

 

[1241Penguin]

Wouldn't Sony/PD be contradicting themselves even IF they were going to try and let the modding slide?

Not necessarily. If PD does nothing, you can't really say that they are letting the modding slide. On the other hand, if PD were to say that nothing would be done to the modding, then they would be contradicting themselves. At the moment, PD are threatening people who have hybrid cars, so you can't say they aren't doing anything.

 

[thelvynau]

Wouldn't Sony/PD be contradicting themselves even IF they were going to try and let the modding slide? It's weird how people forget so quickly that "modding" in any form, is going against the licensing agreement you made when you bought the game & the system, no matter how little damage you think you're doing. Sorry to say but if you're hoping for PD to condone hacking on their own game then you're in for some bad news.

Do you honestly see them being successful in getting rid of hybrids?

 

[Team THRT Drift]

@Dry7123Besides, most of the players dont even know what the ToS says, let alone what it stands for....

You're telling me that you 'have READ and agreed to the Terms of Service?

Bull!

 

[SlipZtrEm]

@Dry7123Besides, most of the players dont even know what the ToS says, let alone what it stands for....

You're telling me that you 'have READ and agreed to the Terms of Service?

Bull!

Ignorance is not (and, really, should not be) an excuse.

"Was I speeding officer? Oh, well, I didn't read the sign, so it's not my fault!"

 

[Dry7123]

@Dry7123Besides, most of the players dont even know what the ToS says, let alone what it stands for....

You're telling me that you 'have read and agreed to the Terms of Service?

Bull!

I've read enough to understand that EVERY agreement you agree to states that copying, modding, adapting, distributing, publishing selling etc. is in violation of the Tos that you agree'd NOT to do. Not tryin to sound like the license police here or anything, but hacking is hacking. Maybe people should put more thought into reading atleast some of the agreements, look at what IG pulled off, but thats a different story.

 

[Dry7123]

Not necessarily. If PD does nothing, you can't really say that they are letting the modding slide. On the other hand, if PD were to say that nothing would be done to the modding, then they would be contradicting themselves. At the moment, PD are threatening people who have hybrid cars, so you can't say they aren't doing anything.

Not saying that they aren't going to do anything about it, just saying that people shouldnt get their hopes of PD letting this modding slide. Why would PD let hackers hack their game and not do something about it when they made you agree not to in the Tos?

 

[Team THRT Drift]

Just realized I sounded lime I was standing up for 'em....
(Bugs Bunny voice) What am I doing?!?!?!?!?!?

 

[Griffith500]

Not saying that they aren't going to do anything about it, just saying that people shouldnt get their hopes of PD letting this modding slide. Why would PD let hackers hack their game and not do something about it when they made you agree not to in the Tos?

The TOS are primarily aimed at controlling the online "experience", because Sony are kind of required to provide that "experience" as part of the "product" they accepted money for. That is why they go to great pains to tell you they're not liable for some kid ramming you off the road online.

Besides, I don't think contracts really work after money has changed hands, and I'm certain that EULAs (which is all the TOS amount to) have been ignored in favour of actual law and legislation (e.g. the equivalent to sale of goods) in Europe when it actually came down to it in a court.

So the TOS are only really designed to scare people, and perhaps rightly so; I don't want people thinking they can do what they want at other peoples' expense. But maybe these people should know better. And that's why I, and probably many others, try not to do anything at anybody else's expense in the game (or any game, or in real life if I can), even with hybrids.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

And I'm sure you have no basis to say that. How would it dominate in a PP level that the same cars that compete at 580PP can (and frequently do) also compete in, plus a bunch of other extremely dominate cars besides? The R35s almost all start under 550PP, the F430 Scuderia starts damn close to 550PP, the Vipers almost all start under 550PP, the BMW M3 CSL can reach 550PP, the NSX-R can reach 550PP, the Evora can reach 550PP, etc. You can also probably chop the 458 down to 550 without damaging much in the way of its dominance.

A 550PP BreezeFrees is suddenly going to start walking away from all those?

Thx for only reading half of my points.

You can optimize a hybrid BRZ in a way, I can`t do my -for example- 458. Setting up cars means optimizing its traits for a event. If both of us join a Nordschleife 10 laps/550PP race, you have more option and tools to find a perfect setup for your hybrid BRZ then me. It won`t make difference if you are already a much better driver then me, but it certainly will against drivers equal to you.

Btw, I have never seen cars from the "580PP" group dominating 550PP online races. Before hybriding, most people were using either a NSX or M3. Having more cars to choose its fine, as long as everyone can choose them without breaking the ToS and risking a ban.

No they don't. All they would have to do is encrypt the saves beyond the standard protection built into the PS3, so decryption tools used when hacking a PS3 system can't be used so easily. They could even make it so the system auto backups like GT5 does, and you can only physically copy that from the PS3 rather than the actual save. If GT6 is a PS4 game, the issue is moot anyway.

If its that easy, its fine by me.

On what scale? Hybriding in past GT games did allow people access to cars that were specific region only, like the Nomad Diablo in GT3; only in that case it was because they weren't allowed to have the Diablo in American copies of the game rather than just arbitrarily limiting it. Or on the scale where people were able to access cars that PD had absolutely no right to even have in the game at all, like in GT3?

So you are telling me that in GT3 days there were as much people hybriding? I doubt that.

Because I imagine certain automakers were a lot more pissed about, say, the fully modeled and functional Porsche 911 that PD didn't have a licence for but people starting hybriding in American and Japanese copies of GT3 for no other reason than to access it.

Again, how many people were doing this and how many people are doing this now?

FM4 and FM3 have plenty of Porsches and plenty of Ferraris and there are no restrictions on painting them and very few restrictions on engine swaps (no more than any other brand).

More likely, all those points (engine swaps etc) were written down in the contract. In GT5`s case, certainly not.

The "manufacturers hate hybriding so much that they will pull licences" argument was never anything more than a complete guess. You're also assuming that future cars that the series might not even get will have the same pointless restrictions as the C7 Corvette.

If GT6 gets the LaFerrari, it could have colour/rims restrictions. You can`t compare this with the Enzo. The Enzo was 8 years old when GT5 launched. LaFerrari is Ferraris new halo car, which people are paying +1M for. Also...
What about cars like the Ferrari F1`s? People can change their colours as they want.

 

[Kurzweil]

I am afraid that PD completely dropped the ball. An online retailer posts information about GT6 pre-order, Sony/PD jump all over this inside a day or so. But hybriding and hacking was fairly common knowledge for AT LEAST two months, all the time, absolute silence from PD.

One can only speculate at this point if the same measures they are taking now (TBH, not much... no automated detection and banning yet, and who on earth thinks PD can hand police a lobby system used by MILLIONS of players?), if taken on Day 2 of the situation rather than Day 60 would have put a chill on the whole scene. But I am convinced that few would have risked their online status to experiment with this, not knowing if PD could or couldn't detect them.

But now, with it having blown up into a huge movement, let's face it... the hackers and modders obviously feel secure in safety by numbers. They are still doing it. And, at this point, do PD really want to alienate a decent sized segment of their user base by banning them online? If it were to have been done promptly, before it blew up, no-one would care. We would all be cheering that PD cared about the online players, and cared enough to work swiftly (as swiftly as they obviously can when it comes to marketing!) to keep the level playing field that racing needs. And no-one would lose any sleep because of a few hackers trying to mess with the game.

But PD's obsession with silence, inscrutability, and their glacial pace at addressing our legitimate needs has come back to bite them in the butt bigtime. Confidence that you are being beat by a player, not a hacked car is at an all time low. It's like doping... major league sports spend a FORTUNE trying to ensure that it is the player, not an aid, that makes us interested in the sport. PD were asleep at the wheel while this all blew up. Let us only hope and pray this is a wake-up call at PD headquarters. The time to do things slowly is over. Welcome to the Web 2.0! Things move pretty fast...

And I'm also sorry, but to all the 'modders' out there, who just want to do some engine swaps and the more 'harmless' hacking...

FIRST, find a way that your type of hacks can work but performance hacks that fly under the PP and scrutinizing radar can't...

If you can't without a major rewrite of the game code (not gonna happen!), which would you prefer? Not being able to do these minor things, and the game remain even and fair online, or would you give up all pretense of fairness and knowing YOU had been beat fair and square rather than out-hacked, simply to be able to swap an engine?

I only hope you prefer the latter.

 

[1241Penguin]

I am afraid that PD completely dropped the ball. An online retailer posts information about GT6 pre-order, Sony/PD jump all over this inside a day or so. But hybriding and hacking was fairly common knowledge for AT LEAST two months, all the time, absolute silence from PD.

Are you aware of this? http://us.gran-turismo.com/us/news/d6915.html

Not to mention the fact that it's a lot easier to crack down on people who post info about GT6 than to crack down on hackers.