SNAIL Tuner and Team Series III - S15 RM Challenge - Sign-ups Open

[dabneyd]

Squeezed?
All I had to do was not change the oil on a new one.
Did the same thing to the Camaro to fit a supercharger.

I hate that this is a tactic to be used. Like the lemons series of yore, we should require an oil change.

 

[IceWarden]

Yeah. How many race teams run a season on old oil?

Any real team would do a complete tear down and rebuild before each race.

 

[hillracing]

I'm thinking test to find about 10 or 15 cars in each class that do about the same time on the speed test and let the tuners pick for next season. I'd be willing to help with the testing. I think that way you have somewhat equal cars to start with and the tuning and driving determines the rest. I think when it's so open like this as to what car you can use someone will find a big advantage and someone will get a slug.

 

[CSLACR]

We as Constructors are still going to look for the best tool to put in the hands of our drivers. Constructors don't care about parity. We try to create the best tool for our drivers.

And in turn our drivers don't want the funnest car to drive that finishes dead last. They want to win.

Still not sure of the solution. Feels like F1. One team dominates, all cry foul, governing body makes new rules to create parity. Rinse and repeat.

👍

I have some ideas though.

1. Ballast penalties. They would have to be standard and apply to any winning cars or podium finishers(depending on system), but something simple like 50/30/10KG weight penalties after every race would even up the cars/drivers.

Imho, it works better here than most series, the ballast system, because here you have uneven cars, in most series the cars are aimed to be equal, in which case a ballast system is really just a drivers handicap.

2. Change GT specs and allow car selection, probably first come first serve. Simply raising the HP 10-20 or decreasing weight 50-100KG, decreasing HP and weight, increasing amount of PL allowed, any of these would allow many more cars in. It seems this exact spec alienates many great performing cars.
The IS-F needs PL because it's powerband actually doesn't exist, and cars like the DLC Aston, '06 Z06 and SRT-10 don't really fit for PL purposes, without thousands of miles, which kind of feels like cheating.(I wanted to use the Z06 actually)
Japanese cars typically can't make this much power, and/or can't reach the weight. Those that do, aren't that good.


I'm not trying to tell you what to do Vol, just offering ideas I had in case you like one.👍

 

[IceWarden]

What I don't get is why there wasn't any problems last season? Same rules and cars available.

I think all this is getting out of hand with penalty systems and preselected car choices. Honestly why don't you retire all the previous champion cars permanently from that particular specification race?

Easy peesy.

 

[Jahgee]

Simple Solution, have all constructors vote on which cars should be banned.

 

[IceWarden]

Not as simple as retiring the winning car

 

[CSLACR]

Simple Solution, have all constructors vote on which cars should be banned.

What about the cars that become the fastest once we ban some cars?

I hate that this is a tactic to be used. Like the lemons series of yore, we should require an oil change.

So we buy a used one with enough miles that after a rebuild it still fits spec?
Or we only allow cars that fit spec at peak stock power (With full break-in and fresh oil) into the series, in which case there's still faster and slower cars.

You can change the tactics, but there will always be faster and slower cars. As said before, there are other competitive cars to the ones I entered, but most of them didn't get picked.

 

[irmopars]

there are other competitive cars to the ones I entered, but most of them didn't get picked.

Care to share your list, please?

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Sorry, beat up from work, and tired. I've uploaded the replays from the SC class: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/03cf7o6m3knw10e/PtOzVfAaUs

I'll get up with Dabney tomorrow and see about the replays for the GT class.

Please keep ideas positive. I already feel guilty for messing up this season. I don't mind hearing ideas to help, but keep it positive.

 

[tezgm99]

What I don't get is why there wasn't any problems last season? Same rules and cars available.

One difference was that last season had a 50kg ballast as a maximum so that probably cut a few cars out from the running (and would have eliminated the Shelby and C5 as choices this time around).

After seeing who the tuners picked for each class, being as far behind as I was is pretty much where I expected to be if I'm honest...big gap between D1 and D4 after all (and not just in pure pace, but consistancy too), lol

 

[hillracing]

Sorry, beat up from work, and tired. I've uploaded the replays from the SC class: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/03cf7o6m3knw10e/PtOzVfAaUs

I'll get up with Dabney tomorrow and see about the replays for the GT class.

Please keep ideas positive. I already feel guilty for messing up this season. I don't mind hearing ideas to help, but keep it positive.

You're doing a great job. I'm sure each season will have it's challenges but I'm sure each season will get better also. Anything I can do to help let me know.

 

[CSLACR]

Care to share your list, please?

I really don't know much about which car is fastest at which hp/wt, a little better with PP, but the one thing I knew to look for here was a high PP rating on a car known for doing well in PP racing.
The M3 CSL has 509PP at my spec, which is up to 10+ more than some other cars. To top that off, the CSL is one of the better 500 PP cars.
The Camaro actually isn't a great PP car, but it's known for cornering tenacity, and PP doesn't have to matter, it's unlimited.(This is where the supercharger/aero comes in handy) I didn't even drive one until after I selected it actually.

So basically, look for good PP cars and cars known for good cornering. FR at the exact current GT spec the selection is more limited, but there's still:
Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione
Maserati coupe
BMW M3 '07
Lexus IS-F
Viper GTS '02
UCD SRT-10
Nissan 350Z (I know the standard US version is good stock, could be at this spec maybe)
EDIT: Mercedes.... I don't remember, C63 maybe.

Off the top of my head. All 100% eligible, I bet that Alfa is neat, even I'd forgotten it.
But not one of these is used, I'm sure at least one is good. (Actually positive 3 are good)

 

[Jahgee]

Vol, if you need help, feel free to contact me. Also, if esh gets set up in time for S3, do I get first dibs on him since he was my driver personally?

 

[dabneyd]

I'll have the replays up tomorrow. I think that we need to find a way to include other drivetrains. I'd love to see the SC class with FF, MR, and FR cars. I think we can find a formula for HP, weight, and PP that will make the racing fair and fun. I also think we can easily enact a reward weight system that will further level the playing field. I have some time on my hands right now so I'll start making a list of cars to test to try to figure out a formula.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

We as Constructors are still going to look for the best tool to put in the hands of our drivers. Constructors don't care about parity. We try to create the best tool for our drivers.

And in turn our drivers don't want the funnest car to drive that finishes dead last. They want to win.

Still not sure of the solution. Feels like F1. One team dominates, all cry foul, governing body makes new rules to create parity. Rinse and repeat.

I commented on the Camaro in last post, but Just to clarify my position. I admit the camaro is quick, but i have no problem with it as it meets criteria. I now know keeping with the Camaro is a lost cause as I killed my tires running better than my flying lap trying. looking forward to the coming weeks.

 

[IceWarden]

To sum up...Vol...love the series. None of this is your fault. I think that because there are two classes running at the same time, the high priced talent is spread out amongst the two classes giving the appearance that things are more lopsided than they are.

Why not do something like this...if a driver wins both races of his class (Wii and Bronco) then they have to drive in the other class. The constructors would then move Wii and Bronco to the opposite class and substitute one of their other drivers to replace them in their class. So next week I might have Bronco in the Ferrari with Rainmaker...and Jones and BeRandom in the Shelby. This seems like a fun way to go. Then if Bronco goes to the Ferrari and wins both races and Wii goes to the CSL and wins both races then it's not the cars it's the drivers.

Not sure that mixing drivetrains is the way to go moving forward. Too many variables trying to keep it fair now without mixing drivetrains on the same track.

I do like the idea of mxing it up as the seasons continue. Next ttime the SC class could be FF or 4WD with slightly different specs and the GT class could be MR or 4WD (or whatever) with slightly different specs.

No major changes need to be done. After each season is all said and done and one car clearly dominated even when drivers changed classes then we can vote to retire it from competition.

I like it...simple and it mixes thing up a bit if one driver starts to dominate.

 

[CSLACR]

I like the idea above, and small changes like that might help, but I do believe for the most part it will work best to remain the same.

I intend at this point to put Wii in the CSL for next week and see how it goes. If he dominates again, depending on Wii's opinion of course, we could switch to the regular M3, if allowed.
I know he doesn't want to race alone in front because his car is worlds faster than everyone else's any more than you guys want him to.
Of course hopefully we'll have more drivers...

 

[IceWarden]

Well if the CSL dominates (and we didn't get to see it last week) then we know the Shelby isn't the target of the witch hunt anymore

The CSL was high on my list of cars to pick but I was leery of buying it used and not changing the oil I'm curious to see how it runs against Bronco and Jones in the Shelby. The track change will make a big difference this week...it's a totally different set of parameters but the two tracks after Laguna will be similar to Suzuka so let's see how this week plays out.

 

[JazzNine]

Welp looks like I won't be doing this because of my job.

 

[Xstylez]

Just saying, why does this series have to be during/after my FGT championship? If possible, I'll try to drop in to a race, but I know that I won't be able to, we're running Daytona 500 Tuesday.

 

[IceWarden]

The dates for each race have been up for over a month I think.

 

[Xstylez]

I was just saying.

 

[IceWarden]

Well don't sign up to a "team" series where they depend on you to show up. If you don't show up to an individual series then who cares...but when your team needs you to participate to scores points then it kinda sucks.

 

[CSLACR]

why does this series have to be during/after my FGT championship?

Because that's when the series host wants to hold the races, that's why.
Why did you sign up if you're running another series at exactly the same time? Presumably you were racing then during the first race, yes?

 

[Xstylez]

Because that's when the series host wants to hold the races, that's why.
Why did you sign up if you're running another series at exactly the same time? Presumably you were racing then during the first race, yes?

I was racing during the first, but when I got done it seemed like I missed both races somehow. We got done at 10:30.

And I wasn't too sure I was gonna be able to make it anyway, it's not like i knew a couple weeks ago the time for the FGT championship. But I guess I'll have to drop out of this then. I got no time the race coming up, as the Daytona race is gonna take 2 hours or more. I apologize.

 

[CSLACR]

I was racing during the first, but when I got done it seemed like I missed both races somehow. We got done at 10:30.

And I wasn't too sure I was gonna be able to make it anyway, it's not like i knew a couple weeks ago the time for the FGT championship. But I guess I'll have to drop out of this then. I got no time the race coming up, as the Daytona race is gonna take 2 hours or more. I apologize.

Much more understandable when you put it that way.👍

 

[BeRandom]

Any idea how many laps Laguna Seca is gonna be? I would like to work on a tire strategy.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Okay, I've been thinking about this all week, trying to think of how to fix things.

First, I want to identify the problems. I don't want to just change things for the sake of changing them. And I do want to make clear the things that I want to focus this series around. The objectives or goals if you will.

1. Objectives
   1. Drivers will be in teams. I really want there to be that team effort, and for it to be about a little more than just you. It is also important to remember that the car (tuner) is a team member, too.
   2. Cars will be tuned. We have the Sunday (and Saturday) series for spec racing. This is a chance to get to race in tuned cars.
2. Challenges
   1. Attrition is a real problem.
   2. Some cars dominate in a particular class.
   3. Races are decided well before the end.
   4. Some team structures are not sustainable.

What I want to do is loosen this up a lot. I want to just have it free form so there is less over head, and people don't have to worry about drawn out drafts and drafting drivers that don't show, or being stuck with cars that don't perform. I just want this to be a fun time for tuners to pit their tunes against one another, and teams of drivers to race in fun cars.

So, these are some ideas that I propose:

Idea 1: Rotating Classes

I am thinking of making this more like the Sunday series in that it keeps going, every week, for whomever can show up. But they routinely roll over the car/track combos. Keeping in mind that these cars are tuned and it may take some time to get them ready, I am not going to change them over every week. Depending on the number of active drivers, we will have a number of lounges. Right now, we have two lounges every Tuesday. So, we will have two active classes, and one "on deck" class.

Right now, we have the 355/1300 FR class and 474/1500 FR class. We will pick a new class to be the "on deck" class. That way, everyone knows what it will be, any team interested in participating will get time to build cars.

Every two weeks, the class with the most votes will be dropped. It will be replaced with the "on deck" class, and a new "on deck" class will be picked for substitution in two weeks. So, every two weeks, a class will get swapped out. It is entirely possible that it will be the same class.

So, for example, we have 355/1300 FR and 474/1500 FR active and 400 PP FF "on deck". This Tuesday will be the second week, so after this Tuesday, the lounge with the most number of votes, the 474/1500 FR for example, will be dropped and replaced with the 400 PP FF class. We pick a new Next Class or "on deck" class, and in two weeks, it will replace the class with the most votes. It could be the 400 PP FF class, meaning the 355/1300 FR class runs for six weeks!

Mind you, we aren't going to do this this week. I was just using that as an example.

Idea 2: Teams

2 drivers to a team. And this is going to free for freaking all. Make teams how ever you want. I don't care. There has to be 2 drivers.

Now... having said that, I'm going to take my team of four as an example. Let's say Cheeb and I are a team, and Bowler and Dabney are a team. We can still be teams running cars for the same tuner. Bowler can maintain just one team if he wants, or he can maintain a whole boat load of teams.

Again, free form. Bowler's two teams can run in two different classes, or if he really wants, he can put them in the same class. Now.. having said that, those two teams would have to run different cars. So basically what I'm saying is, a pair of drivers per car. I don't care how many pairs of drivers have the same tuner.

Does that make sense?

Yes, we will get super robot teams with drivers like Mopar and Diabolic on the same team. I'll come to that later. But I just wanted to make the whole team thing easier.

I'm also taking a big chance that drivers like me may find it very hard to find a team. I have an idea (think of it as salary caps), but I'm going to wait to see if this is really a problem.

Idea 3: Parity Systems

Like I said, we'll have super robot teams, and we'll have teams that get super dominating cars. One thing we'll do to counter act that will be adjusting the car picking order. When a new class is announced, we will start at the bottom of the leaderboards and work our way up. So the team doing the best will get last pick of car for the new class (if they are interested in joining the new class).

They will get to pick what the next "on deck" class will be, though.

Another thing we will try is success ballast. I am not a consistent enough driver to test it out. I don't know what would be fair, so I haven't done this before. So, success ballast will be very painful or very silly at first, I'm sure. I've only run in one league that tried it, and they used 10-20-30 Kg for the podium from the previous race only. Anyone else seen any good systems that worked that we can nick?

Idea 4: Shorter Races

I still want the races to be long enough so tire wear is an issue, but I think we should make them shorter, so people don't spend quite so long driving by themselves. And shorter races mean damage goes back to light. I'm guessing 20 to 30 minutes per race. So maybe 3 a night?

These ideas are just vague for right now. And it is entirely possible that this wall of text was entirely too big for anyone to care about. Think it over. This Tuesday will run as normal.

As an aside, work has be completely kicking my ass, and I've not been as active in the thread as I want to be. Add to that, I've freaking stressed. I have all but a firm job offer on a new job, but... it isn't technical. I know I want to get out of my current job, but I don't know if I want to go into a non-technical role. It is hard to decide.

Oh, and the kids start school this week.

 

[CSLACR]

I'll have to read it once or twice more for it all to sink in and form opinions, but this is what I have after first read:
1. Ballast - If you're doing it, probably 20-40-60. That's what we used in WSGTC before, and as long as it doesn't compile it's not a problem. Anything less (like 30kg) probably isn't quite enough. Of course if 60kg shows to be too much, you can change it to 10-20-30.
2. Attrition - Drop the second class. It's so much easier to fill one room than two it's unreal. Plus with 1 class, in the event you do have say, 24 drivers, you can run 2 rooms of 12. If you have separate classes, one room or two won't change the amount of drivers in a class, and everyone is split.
Keep all the drivers together - better racing, less domination, more fun. Oh, and less overhead, which it sounds like you could use.(GL with job btw)
3. I really like the "on deck" idea.
4. Ongoing events usually have poor attendance and get shut down quickly. I'd say let's work with what we've got, figure something out and finish the season as a season. Maybe 2 drivers, etc, etc, that's more into the part I'll think about before mentioning, just that the season structure has proven itself superior to open-ended events over time to me, by miles. People want/need a finish to aim for.

I've become very against 2 classes in racing series the past few months, I've seen it do nothing good for any series that tries it. No offense, it's a fun idea I know, I've had it too. It just doesn't appear to be practical.