The GTP Unofficial 2020 US Elections Thread

GTPlanet Exit Poll - Which Presidential Ticket Did You Vote For?

  • Trump/Pence

    Votes: 16 27.1%
  • Biden/Harris

    Votes: 20 33.9%
  • Jorgensen/Cohen

    Votes: 7 11.9%
  • Hawkins/Walker

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • La Riva/Freeman

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • De La Fuente/Richardson

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Blankenship/Mohr

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Carroll/Patel

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Simmons/Roze

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Charles/Wallace

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 15 25.4%

  • Total voters
    59
  • Poll closed .
Then it won't shock you to learn he did that with many questions.

Not surprised in the slightest. I am a little annoyed, though, as I didn't realize both Biden and Trump would have their own town halls at the same time today. It's the ultimate First-World problem, but it is annoying having to switch between the two.

Edit: Aaand I guess I missed the end of the Trump town hall...?
 
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Oh my god, if any of ya'll are not tuning in, we are not 20 minutes into Trump's Town Hall & he is not doing well.
Has anyone tried turning him off and back on again? Or even just off?

I am a little annoyed, though, as I didn't realize both Biden and Trump would have their own town halls at the same time today. It's the ultimate First-World problem, but it is annoying having to switch between the two.
I like my method for dealing with that issue.
 
Not surprised in the slightest. I am a little annoyed, though, as I didn't realize both Biden and Trump would have their own town halls at the same time today. It's the ultimate First-World problem, but it is annoying having to switch between the two.

Edit: Aaand I guess I missed the end of the Trump town hall...?
Trump only ran his for an hour. Biden I think is going 1.5-2 hours.


I was a bit surprised to learn the US supposedly either downplayed and keep calm, or everyone is going to die concerning talking about the virus back in Feb.-March. Trump said there was no middle ground. :dunce:
 
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Has anyone tried turning him off and back on again? Or even just off?


I like my method for dealing with that issue.
They are afraid they will brick him if they try that repair method again.
 
Of the thousands of members on this forum I've interacted with in the last fifteen years, I cannot think of a single one who is still here where this statement means less from, Mr. "If Trump did something it cannot be corrupt, because Trump is too smart to be corrupt."
Nice quote Mr. Schiff.

Are you sure Danoff dodged a question, or were you too busy running away from another load of crap you tried to bring up that you got your conversations and threads confused?
Nope. It's all in this thread. Maybe if your reading comprehension were better, you wouldn't be a lib.

Not dodged, refused to respond because you ignored me. You ask for a courtesy you do not extend. That question is irrelevant. I don't have have any sinister plot in mind. I was merely answering your post, which was saying you couldn't see the difference. There was a clear difference, an important legal difference, and I clarified that for you.

Thinking that I have some evil sinister plot in mind is just your own preconceived nonsense clouding your judgement.
Fair enough. I did add the snark.

As for the legality, that will be for a court to decide. The Republican parties in those counties is not just some Joe setting up his home made box. I think that article said that they have put out 50 of them and are putting out 50 more. They are organized groups, I am sure they tend to them regularly and are doing, what they believe, the law allows.
 
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I'm not sure it's possible to create a system (run by people) that cannot become corrupted.

I tend to agree. It relies on having people who don't want to be corrupt, for whom the primary goal is making life better for one's community and country. The ultimate solution is a culture where corruption is immoral and everyone agrees on this. Making rules to defeat corruption is pointless because by definition of you're corrupt you're not playing by the rules.

I think the US has it particularly hard, as the culture of individuality and self before others means that there just aren't that many people of that sort, and those that exist seem to be seen as weird outliers.
 
I tend to agree. It relies on having people who don't want to be corrupt, for whom the primary goal is making life better for one's community and country. The ultimate solution is a culture where corruption is immoral and everyone agrees on this. Making rules to defeat corruption is pointless because by definition of you're corrupt you're not playing by the rules.

I think the US has it particularly hard, as the culture of individuality and self before others means that there just aren't that many people of that sort, and those that exist seem to be seen as weird outliers.

No. It relies on having a system that isn't inherently open to partisan distortion - gerrymandering, voter suppression, manipulation etc. Actually, I can't believe that you ... & especially Danoff, are advancing such a cynical & pessimistic viewpoint. OK, people may act in bad faith sometimes, but you try & build a system that is not structurally open to corruption. This does not seem to be in place in the US ... at least not in some states. The rules themselves are not fair & impartial, so taking advantage of the rules doesn't even really involve "immorality", just gaming the system. It's like Trump & his taxes.
 
Maybe Forbes can shed a little light on Trump's finances.

Trump's net worth on Forbes the day before he came down the escalator. Forbes from The Wayback Machine

YNUwvUV.jpg




Trump's net worth now. Forbes

DSKwWV1.jpg
 
Mmm... am I reading/hearing this right?


We sent in the US Marshals, took 15 minutes and it was over... 15 minutes it was over, we got him. They knew who he was, they didn’t want to arrest him, and 15 minutes that ended. Anywaaaah.
That's from a Trump rally in North Carolina a couple of days ago. Did he just state that the US Marshals conducted an extrajudicial execution on Michael Reinoehl?

The Marshals' official report from September says that they tried to arrest Reinoehl properly - boxing the car in and announcing their presence - and that Reinoehl drew a gun on them before they fired and killed him. Eyewitnesses disagree with pretty much all of that, and of the two guns Reinoehl had in the car, one was in a bag and the other in his pocket, even when he was being shot dead while trying to run away.

Now Trump is saying that the Marshals "didn't want to arrest him", having previously stated of this case that "This guy was a violent criminal, and the U.S. Marshals killed him. And I will tell you something, that’s the way it has to be. There has to be retribution when you have crime like this."

I'm sure everyone has their opinions on what Reinoehl did and his associations with BLM and Antifa, and I'm sure people will think he got what he deserved, but he's an American citizen and he has/had constitutionally guaranteed rights. By saying "there has to be retribution" and "they knew who he was, they didn't want to arrest him", this sounds pretty much like Trump is stating that a federal agency (which "we sent in"... suggesting he knew about it) executed an American citizen on purpose without due process - and that's specifically forbidden by the Fifth Amendment.

It also sounds like if "that's the way it has to be", the President believes that suspending or removing your constitutional rights is fine if you commit certain crimes or believe certain things. And that's staggering.
 
It is staggering if you measure Trump by the values and principles you hold for granted in the litle corner of the world you live in (stable democracies, before this gets complicated).

Trump is a 3rd world leader leading what some years ago I would consider without a doubt a 1st world country. How this came to be and why it is even possible is what deserves our critical (hard) thinking. Something's rotten and, this time, not in Denmark.
 
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Trump was awful last night. This moment pretty much encapsulates it:

Screen Shot 2020-10-16 at 9.30.59 AM copy.jpg


Yes ... it's like Americans decided it would be OK to have their bigoted, bloviating, crazy uncle as President of the United States. Biden seemed calm, collected & reasonable in his town hall. Not at all "senile".
 
No. It relies on having a system that isn't inherently open to partisan distortion - gerrymandering, voter suppression, manipulation etc. Actually, I can't believe that you ... & especially Danoff, are advancing such a cynical & pessimistic viewpoint. OK, people may act in bad faith sometimes, but you try & build a system that is not structurally open to corruption. This does not seem to be in place in the US ... at least not in some states. The rules themselves are not fair & impartial, so taking advantage of the rules doesn't even really involve "immorality", just gaming the system. It's like Trump & his taxes.

Just because something is cynical and pessimistic doesn't make it false. I agree completely with your characterisation of my opinion, but I don't see why that makes it unbelievable. Or wrong.

Let's get a definition out of the way early so that we're all talking about the same thing. "Corruption" in this case is intentionally disregarding the rules of government. It's not people who are technically following the rules but using them in really abusive ways.

And that's kind of the problem. It is logically impossible to build a system of government that must be followed by people who intentionally disregard or break the systems of government. You can't defeat rule breakers by adding more rules. And if nobody follows the rules, it doesn't matter at all what the rules are. That's why coups and civil wars are scary; people are explicitly not following the rules any more.

You can build a system that is structurally more robust against limited amounts of corruption but that just makes it harder, not impossible. This is why dictatorships have such a poor reputation - all it takes is that one guy to be corrupt and the whole system is basically broken. Modern governments tend to have larger groups of people, part of the intention being that any one bad actor can't really accomplish that much. To break a modern democracy you need to have a significant portion of the politicians all working to undermine the established systems, and that's harder.

So we can have a hierarchy of systems where some are more susceptible to corruption than others, but ultimately all will be defeated if enough of the participants are corrupt. If enough people will act with you, you can undermine any set of rules you care to name.

Now, there are also obviously problems that even people who are following the rules of government are able to do things that are pretty clearly destructive to the citizenry and the country. See, police brutality as an easy example. They're following the rules, and it's awful. But as you say, that's just part of the game. Those things in theory should be able to be fixed by changing the rules to disallow that behaviour and enforcing those rules appropriately. And that works because you have people who are being abusive, but they're still playing within the rules.

Related to this, I think the US also has a bit of a problem with tradition. Tradition is great, and one should always be careful of changing things just because. But I refuse to believe that in the last 50 years the only thing that was worth amending in the US Constitution was how salary changes for members of Congress were handled. People can see that the rules need to be changed to meet modern circumstances, but it isn't happening.

And this is where you potentially run into the problem that if the system is poorly structured enough you can get to a state where it's unable to self-correct without violence and destruction. A good governmental system should be able to change and adapt as appropriate to meet the needs of it's citizens and the changes as the society grows, because only a great fool thinks that there's some perfect system that will work for everyone, all the time, anywhere.

But this is where it rolls back around to where we started. Even if a government adapts and changes to remove all abusable rules, the gerrymandering, voter suppression, etc. that you mentioned earlier, and comes to be a system that is consistent and righteous and serves the people well, that can still be broken by someone or some group of people in power simply refusing to play along.
 
It is staggering if you measure Trump by the values and principles you hold for granted in the litle corner of the world you live in (stable democracies, before this gets complicated).
I don't mean it's staggering for Trump - his behaviour has always been strange - but for voters. More so for anyone who'd defend this.

The President of the United States of America, who swears at his inauguration to defend the principles of the Constitution, states that a federal agency went to kill a US citizen on US soil for a crime (and yes, murder is bad, but it's still a crime), denying them the Constitutionally guaranteed right to due process of prosecution for that crime - and suggests that either he knew about it or played a role in it ("we sent them in") - and that they lied about it and that federally backed executions are "the way it has to be" despite 5A.


Never mind the execution or who was executed, that last bit alone is the guy who is sworn to defend the Constitution denying the Constitution when it suits. That should be it; he should be just... done at this point. Nobody who supports Trump can possibly support this. He's literally just denied your Constitutional rights.
 
I don't mean it's staggering for Trump - his behaviour has always been strange - but for voters. More so for anyone who'd defend this..

Forget it Famine. His ardent supporters don't just continue to defend him, they fully support his actions and lap stuff like this up like a sweet dessert. For them it's justified. It's disappointing and distressing.
 
Trump was awful last night. This moment pretty much encapsulates it:

View attachment 965349

Yes ... it's like Americans decided it would be OK to have their bigoted, bloviating, crazy uncle as President of the United States. Biden seemed calm, collected & reasonable in his town hall. Not at all "senile".
He doubled down and retweeted the Babylon Bee this morning about Twitter's censorship. :lol:
 
Forget it Famine. His ardent supporters don't just continue to defend him, they fully support his actions and lap stuff like this up like a sweet dessert. For them it's justified. It's disappointing and distressing.
Generally speaking, yes, it's very easy to convince yourself that your choice is the right one and do some odd mental gymnastics to defend it...

... but this isn't a partisan issue. It's the ultimate defender of the Constitution stating that he thinks the Constitution can be suspended if he feels like it. That's got to be the end of it, surely?
 
Generally speaking, yes, it's very easy to convince yourself that your choice is the right one and do some odd mental gymnastics to defend it...

... but this isn't a partisan issue. It's the ultimate defender of the Constitution stating that he thinks the Constitution can be suspended if he feels like it. That's got to be the end of it, surely?

He's already trampled due process against protesters, violated the 1st amendment against the press, in some peoples' opinions violated the 2nd amendment in getting bump stocks banned, committed (in some views) "treason" by advocating for the overthrow of local governments, I'd argue that he's at least guilty of criminal negligence, if not conspiracy to commit murder or kidnapping. The republican national convention featured two people, in a positive light, that were subsequently charged for felony misconduct with firearms for the very act of doing so. I'm gonna say that last one again, the RNC featured people who are charged with a gun crime because of the gun crime. He was impeached for violating the law in bribing foreign officials to help him interfere with his current campaign. He has also abused eminent domain, advocating that employees illegally seize land from private citizens (illegal search and seizure).

This is off the top of my head. I'm absolutely sure I've forgotten about 10 more. Just add it to the list.

Edit:

Oh yea, discussed cancelling the election (completely illegal), discussed refusing to acquiesce to the electoral process, and discussed going after a 3rd term. They keep coming...
 
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Generally speaking, yes, it's very easy to convince yourself that your choice is the right one and do some odd mental gymnastics to defend it...

... but this isn't a partisan issue. It's the ultimate defender of the Constitution stating that he thinks the Constitution can be suspended if he feels like it. That's got to be the end of it, surely?

It really, reallllyyyy should be. Unfortunately, compared to a boatload of the other crap he's pulled that should've ended his career as president (attempting to take down Twitter, playing down COVID, telling his base to commit voter fraud, telling his base to commit voter intimidation, attempting to institute voter suppression, various forms of gross negligence (criminal or otherwise), "Stand back and Stand by," etc.), this is quite frankly minuscule.

Plus, I'm sure there's a lot of people who will just go "Well, he was a BLM/ANTIFA/Leftist/Libtard thug, so who cares?"

It really is amazing how Trump has this insane effect on people, where his supporters just seem to give up all logic, reasoning and common sense, in order to defend this man. It's genuinely fascinating, because I have no idea how he's able to do that. Especially after last night's town hall, he seems to always roll Nat 1's on Charisma checks, but it never freakin' matters.
 
It really, reallllyyyy should be. Unfortunately, compared to a boatload of the other crap he's pulled that should've ended his career as president (attempting to take down Twitter, playing down COVID, telling his base to commit voter fraud, telling his base to commit voter intimidation, attempting to institute voter suppression, various forms of gross negligence (criminal or otherwise), "Stand back and Stand by," etc.), this is quite frankly minuscule.

It really is a lengthy list.
 
He's already trampled due process against protesters, violated the 1st amendment against the press, in some peoples' opinions violated the 2nd amendment in getting bump stocks banned, committed (in some views) "treason" by advocating for the overthrow of local governments, I'd argue that he's at least guilty of criminal negligence, if not conspiracy to commit murder or kidnapping. The republican national convention featured two people, in a positive light, that were subsequently charged for felony misconduct with firearms for the very act of doing so. I'm gonna say that last one again, the RNC featured people who are charged with a gun crime because of the gun crime. He was impeached for violating the law in bribing foreign officials to help him interfere with his current campaign. He has also abused eminent domain, advocating that employees illegally seize land from private citizens (illegal search and seizure).

This is off the top of my head. I'm absolutely sure I've forgotten about 10 more. Just add it to the list.

Edit:

Oh yea, discussed cancelling the election (completely illegal), discussed refusing to acquiesce to the electoral process, and discussed going after a 3rd term. They keep coming...
These are definitely things he's done, and I'd wager a lot of Trump supporters are just fine with most of them because drain the swamp/MAGA or whatever. They can absolutely mentally wrangle them to acceptance.

I'd put actually stating, out loud, that 5A doesn't matter when he says it doesn't, on a whole new level. This isn't just (or "just") taking matter-of-opinion dumps on bits of the Constitution, but telling everyone that he doesn't believe in the thing it's his job to (and which he swore to, in front of a record crowd [/satire]...) defend.

I can't see what a Trump supporter can think at this point to square away this concept... They accuse Democrats of hating America (as does Trump), but the Constitution is America.

Plus, I'm sure there's a lot of people who will just go "Well, he was a BLM/ANTIFA/Leftist/Libtard thug, so who cares?"
Yes, that's the same issue as Obama/al-Awlaki. It gets hand-waved away because he was a terrorist, so who cares that he was executed by drone strike without ever being charged with any crimes - and his 16-year old kid who was also an American shouldn't have been there.

But that's a sidebar here to the fact he's quite clearly stated that he doesn't believe in the Fifth Amendment, which is the thing that protects Americans from being subject to the whims of a tyrant.
 
It really is amazing how Trump has this insane effect on people, where his supporters just seem to give up all logic, reasoning and common sense, in order to defend this man. It's genuinely fascinating, because I have no idea how he's able to do that. Especially after last night's town hall, he seems to always roll Nat 1's on Charisma checks, but it never freakin' matters.
Someone on Reddit may have said it best.

They like Trump not because of his policies or promises. They like Trump regardless b/c Trump dislikes the same people they dislike, and that's it.
 
These are definitely things he's done, and I'd wager a lot of Trump supporters are just fine with most of them because drain the swamp/MAGA or whatever. They can absolutely mentally wrangle them to acceptance.

I'd put actually stating, out loud, that 5A doesn't matter when he says it doesn't, on a whole new level. This isn't just (or "just") taking matter-of-opinion dumps on bits of the Constitution, but telling everyone that he doesn't believe in the thing it's his job to (and which he swore to, in front of a record crowd [/satire]...) defend.

I can't see what a Trump supporter can think at this point to square away this concept... They accuse Democrats of hating America (as does Trump), but the Constitution is America.

I mean... this appears to violate the 1st amendment. He should be impeached and removed from office for this alone. It is in direct contravention of his oath of office. I get that what you're saying is horrible, but Trump has been waging war against the constitution the whole time. I'd be surprised to find out that he thinks the constitution should protect someone from extrajudicial killing at this point. So far I don't know what in the US constitution he agrees with.

Edit:

This:



Is him violating the 4th amendment and then saying it was a joke.
 
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Yes, that's the same issue as Obama/al-Awlaki. It gets hand-waved away because he was a terrorist, so who cares that he was executed by drone strike without ever being charged with any crimes - and his 16-year old kid who was also an American shouldn't have been there.
I do distinctly remember being pretty nonchalant with that news when it first hit (pun not intended). Now that I understand a bit more, that operation (and Obama's drone policy in general) has soured my opinion of Obama and his administration pretty significantly.

But that's a sidebar here to the fact he's quite clearly stated that he doesn't believe in the Fifth Amendment, which is the thing that protects Americans from being subject to the whims of a tyrant.

And it's horrible, and we need people to vote him out because of it and similar actions. I wish I had more to say about that in particular.

Someone on Reddit may have said it best.

They like Trump not because of his policies or promises. They like Trump regardless b/c Trump dislikes the same people they dislike, and that's it.

Which I understand, it's the whole "the enemy of my enemy is my friend," thought process (I think). It is more that I'm surprised as many people still go up to bat for him despite things like his comments on the military, his comments on health care (including his clear lack-of-plan to protect people with pre-existing conditions), and both his playing-down of COVID and the fact that he caught COVID. Those are things that I'd imagine actually effect his voter base more than whatever the "enemy" is doing.
 
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Someone on Reddit may have said it best.

They like Trump not because of his policies or promises. They like Trump regardless b/c Trump dislikes the same people they dislike, and that's it.

In a nutshell. However, I would add the comment a made earlier, a lot of them also believe:

"Democrats are communists &/or anarchists &/or elitists , hate America, hate God, are perverts & child molesters & like to kill unborn babies."
 
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