The GTP Unofficial 2020 US Elections Thread

[Joey D]

Presumably, Congress will flip completely this time around which will put a huge damper on what Trump can actually get away with. The only reason he can get away with everything now is due to McConnell letting it happen.

I get it. You felt like the 3rd party speech was more important than the Biden/Trump speech given that electoral votes were going to go for Trump. I'd still have voted Biden in Utah, because I'd want my voting speech to stack up 1 more count, even just nationally, in favor of not-authoritarianism.

I think that's the only way you can interpret a Biden vote this year. Not-authoritarianism. A third party vote says something else... "not-authoritarianism but also some other issues are more important than the difference between Biden's not-authoritarianism and authoritarianism".

I suppose I feel like a vote for anyone other than Trump is a vote against authoritarianism.

I understand what you're saying and I do get the importance of getting Trump out of office since he is truly awful and certainly a threat to our Constitution. But at the same time, I still feel like I needed to vote for the person whose ideas most aligned with mine. I really just can't bring myself to vote for the lesser of two evils, even if it's someone who's just evil against someone who's pretty much Satan. I guess since I've started voting, I've found myself getting more and more involved with who I actually vote for. While I know it's just one vote, I find myself taking it very seriously every election that comes up.

It's interesting to me that in the last 15 years Danoff has gone from being ideologically rigid to more flexible & practical-minded ... while you have gone in the opposite direction. I do find myself wondering if that has something to do with where you both live?

No idea, but probably not. I was turning more and more libertarian while I was in Michigan and before I ever considered moving to Utah. Plus, if where I lived really affected my political ideologies, then I'd be very conservative, anti-pro choice, anti-same sex marriage, and pro combining church and state.

What made me libertarian to being with was when I started making a decent salary and saw how much of my paycheck was going to the federal government every other week.

Looking at 2016, is that correct that if everyone in Utah who voted for 3rd party would have voted for Hillary she would have won the state? If so, your vote could have meant something.

Yes, if everyone who'd voted third party had voted for Clinton, then Clinton would've won. But here's the thing, while Evan McMullin got 21.5% of the vote almost none of those people would've voted for Clinton. So really, with McMullin, he took votes from Trump more so than Clinton. Even with that, Trump still won Utah solely because he was apart of a party that opposes abortion.

 

[GranTurNismo]

What made me libertarian to being with was when I started making a decent salary and saw how much of my paycheck was going to the federal government every other week.

Made me think of this:

 

[Keef]

Presumably, Congress will flip completely this time

Speaking of flipping, Mark Kelly is killing his AZ special election polls and the earliest he can be sworn in is Nov 30. Apparently the GA special election winner won't sit until January.

I suppose I feel like a vote for anyone other than Trump is a vote against authoritarianism.

I've been thinking about this lately and I "agree" but I'm looking for different terms to describe it. For example, how can we possibly say we're voting to prevent authoritarianism when we know that it's possible to have blue leadership across the board? Republicans are going to crap their pants in the house, might lose their senate majority, and will probably lose the presidency. At that point, Democrats could push almost anything through, and if they were smart they'd go as far as to push DC and PR statehood through to guarantee undisputed Democratic majorities for decades.

I agree with you that Republicans are on a dangerous path, and I agree that people on the other side appear to be decent people, but we're also pretty smart and we've studied a bit and we know what can come of a single-party majority given enough time to dip their fingers into every bowl.

 

[FuriousDemon]

I have to say, no matter what happens this election, it seems like this forum somehow attracts mostly level headed and decent people, even though there is not any strict moderation from what I can tell. It’s been nice knowing y’all. Let’s hope at some point in not too distant future we will be a bit happier with the country we live in and there will be more unity among the people. I know it’s a pipe dream and most likely things are going to get worse or much worse, but there is still a glimmer of hope. I’m usually pessimistic and have a very bleak view of humanity as a whole, but I hope to be proven wrong.

 

[UKMikey]

Republicans are going to crap their pants in the house, might lose their senate majority, and will probably lose the presidency. At that point, Democrats could push almost anything through, and if they were smart they'd go as far as to push DC and PR statehood through to guarantee undisputed Democratic majorities for decades.

I don't want to count any chickies before they've hatched but can't help but wonder what argument Republicans would use besides "tradition" and "precedent" to oppose letting these two regions become the 51st and 52nd state.

Assuming this even happens, it'd be hilarious if the GOP were to argue against letting Puerto Ricans and Columbians (who I guess by that time would be Douglassians) vote on the grounds that this would put too much power in the hands of Dems.

Logical though this might be it'd sound pretty disingenuous coming out of the mouths of the court-stuffing non-impeachers and Dems could always counter this by reforming the voting system to allow greater representation for all. I think that'd be even less likely to happen than the statehood thing though should a blue wave hand a sizeable congressional majority to the 'Crats.

 

[Keef]

this would put too much power in the hands of Dems.

That's literally the only argument. That is the reason neither territory is a state yet. For most of our expansion, one red and one blue state were added in pairs to maintain "balance" but that option doesn't exist anymore, and therefore it's been avoided for decades.

 

[ryzno]

Assuming this even happens, it'd be hilarious if the GOP were to argue against letting Puerto Ricans and Columbians (who I guess by that time would be Douglassians) vote on the grounds that this would put too much power in the hands of Dems.

Funny enough most Hispanic people I know who aren't from here vote Republican cause, the Democrats "are doing what we moved away from"...

 

[GranTurNismo]

Funny enough most Hispanic people I know who aren't from here vote Republican cause the Democrats "are doing what we moved away from"...

Riiiight, I’d love to hear about how the Democrats are making the US like Latin America. Lemme guess, socialism?

 

[ryzno]

Riiiight, I’d love to hear about how the Democrats are making the US like Latin America. Lemme guess, socialism?

Yeah, some people don't want to rely on the government for everything or be taxed to death. What a concept.
----
At least we don't have a cartel trying to pull you over for the most asinine things and try to extort you for every penny you have...oh wait, we do... /s

 

[Biggles]

No idea, but probably not. I was turning more and more libertarian while I was in Michigan and before I ever considered moving to Utah. Plus, if where I lived really affected my political ideologies, then I'd be very conservative, anti-pro choice, anti-same sex marriage, and pro combining church and state.

What made me libertarian to being with was when I started making a decent salary and saw how much of my paycheck was going to the federal government every other week.

I'm not suggesting that living in Utah is making you more conservative, I'm suggesting that living in a fundamentally conservative society may have pushed you to being more libertarian as a reaction to the conservatism. On the other hand, living in a more liberal environment may have led Danoff to being less libertarian, because his original libertarian stance was a reaction to the conservatism of his upbringing. In general, I believe most people's political views are formed more by psychological factors that are a result of upbringing & real life experiences, rather than abstract intellectual considerations ... which is sort of the point of the "political compass" test.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

This is for all you guys bitchin' about the 'illegal' GOP ballot collection boxes, since they are now allowed. It didn't even go to court.



It was this NYT report and others like it, that were so biased, it caused you guys to react. Read it again and then think about it.

You should be able to recognize bias. And yes, I know when I am listening to someone on the right, they are biased also.

 

[Famine]

This is for all you guys bitchin' about the 'illegal' GOP ballot collection boxes, since they are now allowed. It didn't even go to court.



It was this NYT report and others like it, that were so biased, it caused you guys to react. Read it again and then think about it.

You should be able to recognize bias. And yes, I know when I am listening to someone on the right, they are biased also.

Sure thing - apart from my original post in this thread not containing any link to any news sites.

And the California GOP recognising that the boxes were misleading and responding to secretary of state Alex Padilla's directions to change how they're located, labelled, and monitored. And the state AG Xavier Becerra subpoenaing GOP officials in the case.

Otherwise they are indeed perfectly legal and it's just bias, and the facts you've left out are nothing to do with Trump supporting them.


Any comment on the President stating that 5A doesn't exist, when he said that if you commit a crime and the federal officials sent after you don't feel like arresting you and kill you, that's the way it has to be?

 

[UKMikey]

Funny enough most Hispanic people I know who aren't from here vote Republican cause, the Democrats "are doing what we moved away from"...

I guess it depends upon whether they're Mexican-Americans or Cuban-Americans. Most Hispanic people in the States aren't escaping Communism.

If Puerto Ricans are natural red voters than it makes even less sense for the Republicans to keep them out.

 

[Liquid]

What a terrible reason to vote.

 

[Blitz24]

What a terrible reason to vote.

Clearly scientists and doctors have no idea how to treat a pandemic. The president is an expert in such matters!

 

[polysmut]

Clearly scientists and doctors have no idea how to treat a pandemic. The president is an expert in such matters!

It's hard to argue with his results.

 

[GranTurNismo]

What a terrible reason to vote.

Almost reminds me of Hitler and the nazis calling science that didn't suit their agenda as "Jewish Science". Albert Einstein was one of them.

 

[McLaren]

Like I said in the other thread, he’s getting closer more and more to what he actually wants to say during his rallies.

You only hope he eventually says something so stupid, any undecided vote turns away and not something that actually encourages a crime.

 

[Imari]

It's hard to argue with his results.

He's very, very good at getting people infected. Some might call him a genius, some might call him that. He's just great, so great at everything, you wouldn't believe how great he is. Nobody believes how great he is, but he's so good at getting people infected. You're all going to be so infected, that eventually you'll be sick of all the infection. You'll be begging "please President Trump, we can't handle any more infection, this is too much goodness", but he won't stop because he's too good and it's too good for you and he knows what's good for you and it's good and good.

 

[jjaisli]

Like I said in the other thread, he’s getting closer more and more to what he actually wants to say during his rallies.

You only hope he eventually says something so stupid, any undecided vote turns away and not something that actually encourages a crime.

I'm more worried about what he'd say, or potentially do, if he wins a second term.

 

[GranTurNismo]

I've been thinking about it lately, and it's overwhelmingly apparent to me that a main reason for Trump's extreme narcissistic rhetoric and his constant begging for approval and praise is to make up for the attention and love that his alcoholic father never gave him as a boy. I know I'm merely an armchair psychologist, but this explanation seems plausible to me.

 

[Danoff]

Presumably, Congress will flip completely this time around which will put a huge damper on what Trump can actually get away with. The only reason he can get away with everything now is due to McConnell letting it happen.

That requires that someone vote democrat. Look, I'm a huge champion of third party votes. I've voted third party a TON. But if you care about the difference between a republican senate and a democrat senate, that should be reflected in your vote. I've always voted third party because I didn't care as much about that as I do about what the third party stands for.

So it's still about representing you. It's just "what do I want to say"? And a third party vote says "this is more important". That's fine, but I struggle to see it.

I suppose I feel like a vote for anyone other than Trump is a vote against authoritarianism.

I agree.

But at the same time, I still feel like I needed to vote for the person whose ideas most aligned with mine. I really just can't bring myself to vote for the lesser of two evils, even if it's someone who's just evil against someone who's pretty much Satan.

Your vote should be whatever it is you want to say. It's not necessarily representing your entire worldview or personality, it's representing what you want to say when you vote. The "lesser of two evils" is of course a bad reason to vote. I wouldn't do that either. If you were going to vote for Biden (or Sanders, or whatever), you'd need to really feel what I'm feeling and want to say what I'm saying. Which is that the rest of that stuff can wait, that right now we need to preserve the union.

You're not feeling that I gather, which is fine. So your vote accurately reflects that you're still focused on the whole picture. I'm not, so my vote will not reflect that. The thing I'm struggling with is... how are you still concerned about the whole picture? Is it just that you're forecasting your state's outcome and so you know that a vote for Biden won't do anything for my stated goal? If that's true, I think you're perhaps relying on the electoral system to avoid having to make a tough decision.

In my opinion, any vote for anyone other than Trump this year is a good vote. I'm not disparaging your choice, you're devoted to a great cause. I'm just poking, because I'm in a swing state and I can't do what you're doing.

I guess since I've started voting, I've found myself getting more and more involved with who I actually vote for. While I know it's just one vote, I find myself taking it very seriously every election that comes up.

That's admirable but also dangerous. Because choice affirmation bias will lead you to want to continue voting in the way you have to continue to affirm those past choices. I can tell you now that I will happily vote against Biden in the future (or Hickenlooper, who I also just voted for against Corey expletive Gardner who didn't vote to remove Trump from office), if/when the situation changes in the future. I'm not getting personally attached because I know these are flawed people who make independent choices, and I will maybe want to say something different in the future if the situation changes.

On the other hand, living in a more liberal environment may have led Danoff to being less libertarian, because his original libertarian stance was a reaction to the conservatism of his upbringing.

I'm not really sure I'm becoming less libertarian. The liberals still say a lot of nasty stuff I really despise. But the conservatives have gone nuts. Like scary, off-the-rails, tin-foil-hat nuts. And I see a big difference between the statements of the left and the statements of the right these days. The right has got to be put down. Like you said, it's an emergency. I guess you could say that I fear the left less than I used to, because I have seen how truly scary the right is.

=========================================================

I voted this morning. Dropped the ballot off in a drop box within 2 miles from my house. A police officer was stationed there, that part was new this year. I was very happy to see that it was the police and not a "militia".

=========================================================

I had this weird thought the other day about the conservatives. They've been warning for so long about the left trying to trample the constitution, and oppress, and take away your fundamental liberties. "They're going to take your guns", "they're censoring speech", etc. etc. Lots of alarm about how the left doesn't respect the basics of liberty and the foundations of the country. This started to remind me of this scene from Tangled:

It was you! It was ALL you!
I've spent my entire life hiding from people who would use me [snip]...
...when I should have been hiding - from YOU!

Here's the video for reference (timestamped to the spot):


Perhaps the GOP has been raising alarm bells and warning for so many years because they have been attributing their deepest most immoral desires to their "enemies" on the other side. It turns out that we really needed to be afraid of the people who saw this evil, this desire to trample human rights, everywhere they looked. Now, granted, the there is some legit scary stuff coming out of the left these days. Very immoral, deeply awful stuff. But geez, the conservatives are really showing us where those fears were coming from.

 

[Joey D]

That requires that someone vote democrat. Look, I'm a huge champion of third party votes. I've voted third party a TON. But if you care about the difference between a republican senate and a democrat senate, that should be reflected in your vote. I've always voted third party because I didn't care as much about that as I do about what the third party stands for.

So it's still about representing you. It's just "what do I want to say"? And a third party vote says "this is more important". That's fine, but I struggle to see it.

And that's what I did. The only congressional race in Utah that I could vote on was House District 3 and I voted for Devin Thorpe, a Democrat. He doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell at winning since the sniveling weasel John Curtis will probably win by a landslide. Other than that, the only US race I could vote in was for the president. I think at this point the only Republican I'd ever support for Congress is Romney.

For state offices, it was a mix of various parties based on research I did on the candidates. I know the Republican candidate will more than likely win, but I wanted to vote for the person who had the best platform, and in cases like the State Auditor, I went solely on their resume. I want someone with a ton of experience in those offices since they're less political and more procedural.

Is it just that you're forecasting your state's outcome and so you know that a vote for Biden won't do anything for my stated goal? If that's true, I think you're perhaps relying on the electoral system to avoid having to make a tough decision.

Probably. If I still lived in Michigan, my voting might've been different, I really don't know. I just know in Utah that Trump will win since there's no Mormon third-party candidate endorsed by the LDS Church and unless Biden suddenly comes out as Pro-Life a majority of the state won't care. They are single-issue voters and that's it. I mean if everything Trump's done thus far hasn't waived their support, nothing will since Trump is about as far from Mormon as they get...ok that might not be true since a big chunk of Mormons are racist, sexist, and extremely bigoted.

That's admirable but also dangerous. Because choice affirmation bias will lead you to want to continue voting in the way you have to continue to affirm those past choices. I can tell you now that I will happily vote against Biden in the future (or Hickenlooper, who I also just voted for against Corey expletive Gardner who didn't vote to remove Trump from office), if/when the situation changes in the future. I'm not getting personally attached because I know these are flawed people who make independent choices, and I will maybe want to say something different in the future if the situation changes.

I agree that it can be dangerous and I think that's why I spend so much time researching candidates. Hell, I even researched the two school board candidates we had before making a decision on them. I have several pages of notes scribbled down about all of them too. Weirdly enough for our county mayor, I actually landed on the Green Party candidate, who's a pot-smoking organic farmer who lives in a hippy commune. We share very few views that are remotely the same, but he's anti-inland port and that's a big issue for me since it's a gross misuse of eminent domain.

I know my choices aren't perfect, but at the end of the day, I still feel like it's important to use my vote to support who I think would be the best person for the job. Voting is way more difficult than I think most people give it credit for or even realize. I think if people spent even 5 minutes doing basic research on candidates, we'd have less people like Trump in politics.

 

[Biggles]

That requires that someone vote democrat. Look, I'm a huge champion of third party votes. I've voted third party a TON. But if you care about the difference between a republican senate and a democrat senate, that should be reflected in your vote. I've always voted third party because I didn't care as much about that as I do about what the third party stands for.

So it's still about representing you. It's just "what do I want to say"? And a third party vote says "this is more important". That's fine, but I struggle to see it.



I agree.



Your vote should be whatever it is you want to say. It's not necessarily representing your entire worldview or personality, it's representing what you want to say when you vote. The "lesser of two evils" is of course a bad reason to vote. I wouldn't do that either. If you were going to vote for Biden (or Sanders, or whatever), you'd need to really feel what I'm feeling and want to say what I'm saying. Which is that the rest of that stuff can wait, that right now we need to preserve the union.

You're not feeling that I gather, which is fine. So your vote accurately reflects that you're still focused on the whole picture. I'm not, so my vote will not reflect that. The thing I'm struggling with is... how are you still concerned about the whole picture? Is it just that you're forecasting your state's outcome and so you know that a vote for Biden won't do anything for my stated goal? If that's true, I think you're perhaps relying on the electoral system to avoid having to make a tough decision.

In my opinion, any vote for anyone other than Trump this year is a good vote. I'm not disparaging your choice, you're devoted to a great cause. I'm just poking, because I'm in a swing state and I can't do what you're doing.



That's admirable but also dangerous. Because choice affirmation bias will lead you to want to continue voting in the way you have to continue to affirm those past choices. I can tell you now that I will happily vote against Biden in the future (or Hickenlooper, who I also just voted for against Corey expletive Gardner who didn't vote to remove Trump from office), if/when the situation changes in the future. I'm not getting personally attached because I know these are flawed people who make independent choices, and I will maybe want to say something different in the future if the situation changes.



I'm not really sure I'm becoming less libertarian. The liberals still say a lot of nasty stuff I really despise. But the conservatives have gone nuts. Like scary, off-the-rails, tin-foil-hat nuts. And I see a big difference between the statements of the left and the statements of the right these days. The right has got to be put down. Like you said, it's an emergency. I guess you could say that I fear the left less than I used to, because I have seen how truly scary the right is.

=========================================================

I voted this morning. Dropped the ballot off in a drop box within 2 miles from my house. A police officer was stationed there, that part was new this year. I was very happy to see that it was the police and not a "militia".

=========================================================

I had this weird thought the other day about the conservatives. They've been warning for so long about the left trying to trample the constitution, and oppress, and take away your fundamental liberties. "They're going to take your guns", "they're censoring speech", etc. etc. Lots of alarm about how the left doesn't respect the basics of liberty and the foundations of the country. This started to remind me of this scene from Tangled:

It was you! It was ALL you!
I've spent my entire life hiding from people who would use me [snip]...
...when I should have been hiding - from YOU!

Here's the video for reference (timestamped to the spot):


Perhaps the GOP has been raising alarm bells and warning for so many years because they have been attributing their deepest most immoral desires to their "enemies" on the other side. It turns out that we really needed to be afraid of the people who saw this evil, this desire to trample human rights, everywhere they looked. Now, granted, the there is some legit scary stuff coming out of the left these days. Very immoral, deeply awful stuff. But geez, the conservatives are really showing us where those fears were coming from.

Danoff referencing a Disney princess tune. What would Mises think?

I think it bears out my point that people are more driven by emotions than by reason. Trump has openly appealed to emotion on the right - primarily fear & hate, along with the perennial American appeal to jingoistic exceptionalism. The thing is, the majority of Americans don't fear or hate that much, so even with all the anti-democratic distortions within the American system, Trump is not going to win a second term.

As far as third party voting is concerned, I think it is forever doomed. In particular, I don't see any way that the Libertarian party can ever gain any traction in voting results. There may be a decent percentage of people who have libertarian leanings, but they are fragmented all over the country. There is no concentrated libertarian voting bloc. The majority of people who identify as libertarian but vote for one of the two major parties in practice vote Republican, but a sizeable number also vote Democrat.

https://reason.com/2020/09/09/the-incredible-shrinking-3rd-party-voter/

 

[huskeR32]

It was this NYT report and others like it, that were so biased, it caused you guys to react. Read it again and then think about it.

You should be able to recognize bias. And yes, I know when I am listening to someone on the right, they are biased also.

Speaking of being suckered by bias, you told us that a bill signed by Obama in 2014 was one of Trump's big "accomplishments," a belief that you could only have held because Trump claimed credit for it at rallies. Truly, you are a bastion of impartiality in these troubled times.

 

[Tornado]

What a terrible reason to vote.

Though only after he wins.

 

[Dotini]

...my point that people are more driven by emotions than by reason. Trump has openly appealed to emotion on the right - primarily fear & hate, along with the perennial American appeal to jingoistic exceptionalism. The thing is, the majority of Americans don't fear or hate that much, so even with all the anti-democratic distortions within the American system, Trump is not going to win a second term.

There are actually some people who are still expecting a Trump victory in 2020. Although I'm not among them, I'm trying to understand why they think that way, because none of the pollsters I know of are predicting anything other than a Biden victory or even landslide. But some think poll respondents are not being entirely forthcoming.

So far, my findings are that fear, hate, jingoism and exceptionalism are not the prime motivating factors for Trump swing voters. Much of these atavisms pertain to foreign affairs and immigration, which I don't think are ever determinative in presidential elections. I think it all boils down to three domestic issues; peace, prosperity and Supreme Court appointments.

Under peace, I think domestic tranquility in the guise of law and order is a strong factor. Under prosperity, I think the preservation of free enterprise, capitalism and some mindfulness of debt is a factor which is under threat of more open socialism combined with extreme deficit pending. Finally, I think conservative Supreme Court appointments are popular with most people who are concerned with too much and too fast change.

 

[Keef]

Funny enough most Hispanic people I know who aren't from here vote Republican cause, the Democrats "are doing what we moved away from"...

Riiiight, I’d love to hear about how the Democrats are making the US like Latin America. Lemme guess, socialism?

I've got some Cuban American friends and they're afflicted with Red Scare so bad you'd think it was October 1962 out there.

 

[Keef]

This is for all you guys bitchin' about the 'illegal' GOP ballot collection boxes, since they are now allowed. It didn't even go to court.

False, false, falsefalsefalse false this is so false I'm screaming a high note.

https://www.npr.org/2020/10/16/9239...reats-over-gop-unauthorized-ballot-drop-boxes

At a press conference Friday, Attorney General Xavier Becerra and Secretary of State Alex Padilla, both Democrats, didn't announce any additional enforcement action against the party, saying the California GOP agreed to modify how they were collecting ballots.

...the California Republican Party agreed not to place unauthorized ballot drop boxes outdoors, leave drop boxes unattended or present them as official, the party said it will continue to accept ballots delivered by voters to local party offices and secure them in boxes attended by staff or volunteers.

They are not simply "allowed". Concessions were made. It "didn't even go to court" because concessions were made.

 

[GranTurNismo]

I've got some Cuban American friends and they're afflicted with Red Scare so bad you'd think it was October 1962 out there.

From what I understand, many Cuban Americans who immigrated here back during the Bay of Pigs Invasion era were wealthy and upper-middle-class landowners. These types of people are likely to vote Republican by default. And don't many Cubans identify as White and not Hispanic/Latinx?