Will America attack Iran?

[Rogue Ssv]

Well, seems like this thread's been rekindled. With a venegance. TurboSmoke yes that is confusing. I think what Swift means is that you are wrong in that it is impossible to discuss America without bashing it. I mean, that's what we're doing here, right? Anyway, if you say you're from America they might lay off.. And Swift, what dyou mean 'perfectly clean record'?! We betrayed our mother country (though that had a reason), we blew up half of Japan (that wasnt really uncalled for either, but it caused the deaths of thousands of innocent people), and we've screwed up Iraq's government! (though it's better off now anyway). Hmm... not perfect, but probably the best one.
And about that bumper sticker... I have one.

 

[Swift]

which part of my post is half right and which half wrong?

You're right about people wanting to be seperated from the policies of the gov't. But you're wrong in saying that you can't say anything about America without being labled a "basher" That is only to the people that are willfully ignorant of American policies.

 

[TurboSmoke]

You're right about people wanting to be seperated from the policies of the gov't. But you're wrong in saying that you can't say anything about America without being labled a "basher" That is only to the people that are willfully ignorant of American policies.

i have been labelled an American basher by people on this forum...it made me feel dissapointed that i am percieved that way. I have no intention of bashing the American people. However, give me a big club and i will gladly bash Preznitz Bush. For some reason this annoys people...cant think why.

 

[Rogue Ssv]

Ha! I guessed right! I thought I'd get bashed again for making random ASSumptions.

Well theyve got a point about Bush. The idiotic dumbass means well, and uh, well ask someone else theyll tell you.

 

[Swift]

And Swift, what dyou mean 'perfectly clean record'?! We betrayed our mother country (though that had a reason), we blew up half of Japan (that wasnt really uncalled for either, but it caused the deaths of thousands of innocent people), and we've screwed up Iraq's government! (though it's better off now anyway). Hmm... not perfect, but probably the best one.
And about that bumper sticker... I have one.

No, we don't have a perfect record, but no other country does either and none of us should act like we do.

i have been labelled an American basher by people on this forum...it made me feel dissapointed that i am percieved that way. I have no intention of bashing the American people. However, give me a big club and i will gladly bash Preznitz Bush. For some reason this annoys people...cant think why.

You've been labled a basher by members that haven't bothered to do research on the subjects we're discussing. Also, some of them just see negative things about America and assume that it's another person bashing their country. Again, an ignorant behavior.

 

[DeLoreanBrown]

The U.S.'s veto record in the UN.

This is a 1982 veto;

Support for a new world information and communications order (131 to 1);

that's one hundred and thirty one nations ( some tribal conglomerates )
and 1 autoveto.
new world information, eh, meinen characters.

just had to take an '85 dip from that resource as, and this is rare, there are two nays to this quashing;

Measures to be taken against Nazi, Fascist and neo-Fascist activities (121 to 2 with Israel);

 

[Danoff]

this

Some good info (not all of it evil, I might add)

...not seeing the problem there.

concerning Cuba

Woah there! How about some sources to back up these claims? That article was a pretty lazy peice of "objective" reporting.

Remember Sudan?

But now, a year later, there is not a shred of evidence suggesting that the pharmaceutical plant in Sudan produced nerve gas.

Maybe because it was all done blowed up?

While this retreat suggests the United States had no evidence to support its claim that the missile attack was to combat terrorism, it brought to light a whole new spectrum of meaning to the phrase crimes against humanity

...exactly the kind of statement that gets me to stop reading an article. When the author assumes something is proven that is clearly not. The "retreat" that he talks about doesn't prove anything, but we're to assume it does and proceed.

The El-Shifa facility had been called the Pride of Africa at its opening, which drew much fanfare, heads of state, foreign ministers, and ambassadors. The factory even became a supplier of medicine to Iraq as part of the United Nations Food for Oil program.

Does it matter what they called it? Does the fact that they named it the "Pride of Africa" mean that it can't possibly be a factory for nerve gas? Does the fact that it drew fanfare from heads of state mean that it couldnt' have been corrupt? Does the fact that it supplied medicine as part of the corrupt UN Oil-for-food program (which is an awful program and title) mean that it couldn't possibly have been used to supply terrorists?

Lazy lazy. Do you actually buy these arguments SS?

Panama (not the Van Halen version)

...and the problem is?

I do agree that Noriega was not a good man, but Ollie North and Co. thought so. (make sure to read Ollie's personal notes.) A plan that went awry.

I'm sorry, why do I care about this? Not the Iran-Contra Affair, but about the disagreement between Kerry and North about drug running.

More concerning American support for the Contras and the illegal harbour mining

Perhaps rather than just giving me sources, you could give me the implications you see coming from these articles. What exactly do you think these articles show? I'm not claiming that they don't show anything, I'm wanting to know what you personally get from this.

A Noble Prize winner's view of this episode (I thought it was a good read anyway.)

Wow, that was disorganized (and quite poorly written).

Suharto

This isn't even half of the analysis. You can't just scream "people were killed by people who were partically suppored by the US" and claim your research is finished. You need to investigate the US role, and the purpose of the US role. Look at motivations of the parties involved and find out who the wrong doer is.

Mobutu Sese Seko of Zaire was a truly terrible man, but not according to this guy. But maybe he had a little help.

I'm still waiting for the smoking gun here. Some people claim that the guy is responsible for countless deaths. Bush Sr. didn't have a bone to pick with the guy. And the US paid the guy for help in the region, which didn't turn out as well as we hoped. Yea, I guess that means the US is responsible for all the deaths the guy is supposed to have caused. Because Bush Sr. didn't think the guy was evil, and our military wanted his help. It's a pretty tenuous link at best.

The hot topic of Iran.

Let me ask you something. At what point does it become our responsibility? On the one side you have "someone might have said the letters "U" and "S" during this awful incident, America is to blame". On the otherhand you have "The US military nuked our city." Somewhere in between those two things we become more and more responsible for the outcome. Where exactly is that point?

The U.S.'s veto record in the UN. Also, this. You are right, the UN is impotent!

Yup, maybe they should kick us out.


Speedy, I think this discussion really belongs in the "America" thread in the opinions forum. But I just wanted to say after reading all of this that I'm expecting next to hear you say that a butterfly in the US flapped its wings which caused a puff of air that eventually created a hurricane that killed thousands in some other country. Are these links the best you can do to justify your support of terrorists and mass-murdering dictators over the US? Are these really sufficient to justify in your mind that you can blame the US for the actions of everyone in the middle east?

Edit:

i am talking about that other country that was devastated, namely Afghanistan. remember them?

How exactly did we "devastate" Arghanistan? How does the removal of the Taliban correspond to the "devastation" of a "nation" that consisted basically of anarchy, chaos, and sand.

 

[Kylehnat]

How exactly did we "devastate" Arghanistan? How does the removal of the Taliban correspond to the "devastation" of a "nation" that consisted basically of anarchy, chaos, and sand.

Well you see, Tora Bora is not a desolate, desertified cave network, as the U.S. government would have you believe. In reality, it was a booming economic metropolis, and a stronghold for the Afghani people. By continously bombing it for a month, the U.S. is directly responsible for the deaths of millions, nay, billions (maybe even trillions) of innocent women, children, cute kittens, pretty butterflies, and the Stevie Nicks goat. Enraged, the Afghani people raced to the polls in record numbers and voted for a new government, clearly confirming that they had been quite happy under the self-appointed Taliban.

We're through the looking glass here, people...

 

[Swift]

Well you see, Tora Bora is not a desolate, desertified cave network, as the U.S. government would have you believe. In reality, it was a booming economic metropolis, and a stronghold for the Afghani people. By continously bombing it for a month, the U.S. is directly responsible for the deaths of millions, nay, billions (maybe even trillions) of innocent women, children, cute kittens, pretty butterflies, and the Stevie Nicks goat. Enraged, the Afghani people raced to the polls in record numbers and voted for a new government, clearly confirming that they had been quite happy under the self-appointed Taliban.

We're through the looking glass here, people...

Ok, Trillions, do you have any idea how many people that would be? There aren't even a trillion people on the planet now. I doubt there has been a trillion people on the planet since the creation of the USA.

Honestly, I'm sorry about the people that were hurt and killed and lost loved ones during the bombings and other military operations in Afganastan. But I'm equally sorry for the same people in America after 9/11.

 

[Rogue Ssv]

No, we don't have a perfect record, but no other country does either and none of us should act like we do.



You've been labled a basher by members that haven't bothered to do research on the subjects we're discussing. Also, some of them just see negative things about America and assume that it's another person bashing their country. Again, an ignorant behavior.

Swift, how old are you? Dyou have a 'Quality Posts' badge, because you really deserve one !

On a totally different note, here's an article from AMNewYork today. It doesn't really relate to the conversation, but it relates to Iran and its weapons. If your going to read it and then label me as an idiot who isnt reading 9 pages of thread then skip it.

Iran Parliament Eyes Nuke Treaty Pullout
Tells UN leaders US pressure would prompt such action

Tehran, Iran The Iranian parliament threatened yesterday to force the government to withdraw from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty if the US continues pressuring Tehran to suspend uranium enrichment. In a letter to UN Seceratary General Kofi Annan read on state-run radio, the lawmakers said they would consider withdrawal if 'the UN Seceretary General and other members of the UN fail in their crucial responsibility to resolve differences peacefully'.
The legislators said they would have no choice but to 'review Article 10 of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty'. The article allows signatories to pull out of the treaty if they decide that events have jeopardized the supreme interests of its country. A withdrawing nation must give treaty signers and the UN 3 months notice and detail the events that have forced the decision.
North Korea withdrew from the treaty in '03 for exactly the same reason.

''This is a typical Iranian threat. It shows that they remain desperate to conceal that their nuclear program is in fact a weapons program'' --John Bolton, US Ambassador to the UN and American dumbass

Remember what we said on Iran having to follow the treaty? Well get ready to say about that 'screw that'.

Stupid Americans, what has the Government come to?

And yeah, Kyle there's about 9 billion people on the planet now. tho' its possible we killed trillions of cats and butterflies...wait....there are cats and butterflies in Afghanistan? And the US isnt directly responsible, only some of the US government is. Might I remind you that almost no one supported that? And Swift, there's a difference. They were terrorists. But we're not, so what gives us the justification to do that?

 

[Danoff]

Ok, Trillions, do you have any idea how many people that would be? There aren't even a trillion people on the planet now. I doubt there has been a trillion people on the planet since the creation of the USA.

Honestly, I'm sorry about the people that were hurt and killed and lost loved ones during the bombings and other military operations in Afganastan. But I'm equally sorry for the same people in America after 9/11.

I think Kyle's post is supposed to have a couple of assumed [sarcasm] tags.

 

[Swift]

Swift, how old are you? Dyou have a 'Quality Posts' badge, because you really deserve one !

click on that little red check by my name and I'll be closer to having one.

And Swift, there's a difference. They were terrorists. But we're not, so what gives us the justification to do that?

There gov't was knowingly harboring the terrorists and wouldn't turn them over.

 

[Rogue Ssv]

Yeah, I guess. Someone comment on the AMNY article!!! Please?

 

[TurboSmoke]

Honestly, I'm sorry about the people that were hurt and killed and lost loved ones during the bombings and other military operations in Afganastan. But I'm equally sorry for the same people in America after 9/11.

equally sorry?

9/11 civilian body count 2,800
Retaliatory Iraq/Afghan civilian body count 12,000

whats equal about that?

 

[Swift]

equally sorry?

9/11 civilian body count 2,800
Retaliatory Iraq/Afghan civilian body count 12,000

whats equal about that?

No one can say that this "life" is worth more than that "life". Also, I don't put the Iraqi conflict in with the Afgan conflict. We went into Iraq for different reasons then Afganastan.

In all fairness, I feel sorry for any people that lost loved ones or were hurt during ANY military(and the terrorists consider themselves military) that they don't approve off or participate in.

 

[Rogue Ssv]

The terrorists consider themselves military? Retards...
Anyway he was talking about the numbers.
And Swift was talking about the people regardless of what numbers.
So you're both right.

 

[TurboSmoke]

How exactly did we "devastate" Arghanistan? How does the removal of the Taliban correspond to the "devastation" of a "nation" that consisted basically of anarchy, chaos, and sand.

see above post...

dont get me wrong, i agree with Bush that terrorism in all its forms must be opposed but there are ways of dealing with them that doesnt involve flattening a civilian population.

plus, i think the way you refer to Afghanistan as chaotic and full of sand is insulting. It is one of the great ancient civilisations which flourished with culture and the people as a whole are peace loving and kind.

like the USA, they have a corrupt power base but dont fall into the trap of judging a country by the people who run it.

 

[Danoff]

equally sorry?

9/11 civilian body count 2,800
Retaliatory Iraq/Afghan civilian body count 12,000

whats equal about that?

What's the point of this? Would it be more justified if we'd lost 12,000? Presumably these are completely innocent civilians. Just one death of an innocent civilian is bad. We're not "getting even" by killing innocents over there for each innocent over here. So the numbers are altogther meaningless. And don't even think about responding with "the cure is worse than the illness".

 

[Rogue Ssv]

We arent corrupt! DIDNT ANYONE FIND MY ARTICLE USEFUL!?!?!?!? I WANT COMMENTS!!!!!! Am I posting too often again?

 

[Danoff]

see above post...

Doesn't apply.

dont get me wrong, i agree with Bush that terrorism in all its forms must be opposed but there are ways of dealing with them that doesnt involve flattening a civilian population.

A bit melodramatic?

plus, i think the way you refer to Afghanistan as chaotic and full of sand is insulting. It is one of the great ancient civilisations which flourished with culture and the people as a whole are peace loving and kind.

Let's face it. Afghanistan was a sparsely populated anarchistic state. It was really more of a name for a region of land than a nation. I take it back though, they had both rocks and sand.

like the USA, they have a corrupt power base but dont fall into the trap of judging a country by the people who run it.

Oh I see, so the Taliban are just like a government democratically elected by individuals with rights. That makes a lot of sense....

 

[Danoff]

We arent corrupt! DIDNT ANYONE FIND MY ARTICLE USEFUL!?!?!?!? I WANT COMMENTS!!!!!! Am I posting too often again?

Yes, and your signature is too long.

 

[Kylehnat]

I think Kyle's post is supposed to have a couple of assumed [sarcasm] tags.

I also forgot to include this:

 

[Rogue Ssv]

What is that? I cant really see it. Is it from South Park? COMMENT ON MY AMNY ARTICLE!!!!!!!!

 

[Famine]

What is that? I cant really see it. Is it from South Park? COMMENT ON MY AMNY ARTICLE!!!!!!!!

Remember the advice I gave you, and a scenario about what would happen if you didn't heed it?

Well, it looks like you aren't heeding it...

 

[Rogue Ssv]

[

QUOTE=danoff]Doesn't apply.

He didnt mean MY post, my posts suck

A bit melodramatic?

Not really, he makes a good point

Let's face it. Afghanistan was a sparsely populated anarchistic state. It was really more of a name for a region of land than a nation. I take it back though, they had both rocks and sand.

It was a little insulting tho, but funny.

Oh I see, so the Taliban are just like a government democratically elected by individuals with rights. That makes a lot of sense....

[/QUOTE]

No theyre not, they were just controlling everything at the time, and a lot were in government

Famine cant you PM me about this stuff? Anyway you just ruined my day, that wasnt exactly helping my mood. Thanks for trying to help tho. But still, did anyone even read my article?!

 

[Carl.]

plus, i think the way you refer to Afghanistan as chaotic and full of sand is insulting. It is one of the great ancient civilisations which flourished with culture and the people as a whole are peace loving and kind.

like the USA, they have a corrupt power base but dont fall into the trap of judging a country by the people who run it.

I don't know about chaotic and full of sand, but I certainly wouldn't refer to the Taliban-ruled Afghanistan as a peace loving and kind nation. I'd suggest watching the movie Osama, by Afghan producer Siddiq Barmak, which tells a story happening under the rule of the Talibans, and is acted by people picked on the streets of Kabul, who've had first hand experience with the Talibans in real life (while the movie is called Osama, the story isn't related to Al Quaeda at all, by the way).

I've been quite vocal about my objections to the invasion of Iraq in 2003, but I think what was done in Afghanistan was the right thing to do, whether or not the trans-Afghan pipeline has been a factor in it. In fact my only gripe with it is that since then, most efforts have been redirected to Iraq while the job over there is very far from being done.

It may be overshadowed by what's happening to Iraq, but our troops over there are regularily under attack, and even then, here polls show that the majority of the population wants us to pull out as soon as possible, which, in short, means giving the Talibans a good opportunity to taking back whole (if not all) regions of the country. That just infuriates me...

 

[Rogue Ssv]

I don't know about chaotic and full of sand, but I certainly wouldn't refer to the Taliban-ruled Afghanistan as a peace loving and kind nation. I'd suggest watching the movie Osama, by Afghan producer Siddiq Barmak, which tells a story happening under the rule of the Talibans, and is acted by people picked on the streets of Kabul, who've had first hand experience with the Talibans in real life (while the movie is called Osama, the story isn't related to Al Qaeda at all, by the way).

I've been quite vocal about my objections to the invasion of Iraq in 2003, but I think what was done in Afghanistan was the right thing to do, wheter or not the trans-Afghan pipeline has been a factor in it. In fact my only gripe with it is that since then, most efforts have been redirected to Iraq while the job over there is very far from being done.

It may be overshadowed by what's happening to Iraq, but our troops over there are regularily under attack, and even then, here polls show that the majority of the population wants us to pull out as soon as possible, which, in short, means giving the Talibans a good chance of taking back whole (if not all) regions of the country. That just infuriates me...

He was talking about the PEOPLE, the ones being tortured, not the Taliban/Government.

 

[Carl.]

He was talking about the PEOPLE, the ones being tortured, not the Taliban/Government.

Remember the advice I gave you, and a scenario about what would happen if you didn't heed it?

Well, it looks like you aren't heeding it...

💡

 

[Rogue Ssv]

Hmm, maybe Ill just shut up now....

 

[Swift]

1. We should respond to Rogue's article because it's directly relevant to the thread topic
2. Turbosmoke, why didn't you respond to my reply about lives?
3. Kyle, I remember that episode, but your post had an overall serious tone to it. But obviously, I took it the wrong way.
4. Rogue, shorten up some of the blank lines in your signature.