2014 Grand Prix du Canada

[Spitfire77]

I was totally on the edge of my seat - have been looking for Williams to get a podium. It looked to me that Massa had a chance to make that happen. My wife was asleep at my side and she was woken up abruptly by me yelling.. "OH NO!, WHY?!"

I just could not believe it.. I am not specifically a Massa or Bottas fan but I want so badly for Williams to get back up there!

Glad the drivers are all OK, props to Nico for a great finish, and happy for Ricciardo that must be an amazing feeling.

 

[TenEightyOne]

@20832 - great graphic! Where's it from, or is it your own work?

 

[Hun200kmh]

@Hun200kmh , it's a myth that nothing happened to Nico... corner cuts are cumulative in every race, he received his final warning for this. It's just that he hadn't had enough cuts to take the penalty.

I also heard from someone "in the business" today that some teams may appeal against Perez's 5-place ban and ask for a race ban. If so they won't get it but they may prompt the FIA to revisit the steward's decision.

Supposedly his telemetry shows a clear early brake-and-turn across Massa's path while the camera shows Perez watching Massa's approach in the mirror. If so you can see why drivers would have had enough of this kind of stuff... that was nearly a big aeroplane accident.

About Rosberg: Yes, I'm aware this was treated as a final warning (I suppose it's something similar to the cumulative warnings anding in a penalty that made Webber face a grid penalty when he gave Alonso a lift at the end of the Singapore GP). What I wasn't aware but just read a while ago is that Rosberg did slow down in corners 1 and 2 so he could concede the time gained, without doing it at a place where Hamilton might've passed. Fair play I think, last warning issued and case closed.

About Checo: I'm torn about this. I like Perez and although I think he did a serious error that could have had nasty consequences, I don't think that in the heat of the moment he thought that would be the outcome. There was no malice, just desperation in blocking. Reading through this thread's pages I noticed how quick everyone was to make fun of Jacques Villeneuve because apparently he was quick in blaming Perez for the accident (and calling for him to get a ban), but now it seems he wasn't that far off in his opinion.

I don't consider Perez dangerous so I wouldn't go for a ban. But, of course, if he carries on with reckless behaviour, then yes. There are others out there I consider more "dangerous" and I don't recall them getting bans.

 

[20832]

@20832 - great graphic! Where's it from, or is it your own work?

Nope, it's from reddit!

source

 

[TenEightyOne]

About Checo: I'm torn about this. I like Perez and although I think he did a serious error that could have had nasty consequences, I don't think that in the heat of the moment he thought that would be the outcome. There was no malice, just desperation in blocking.

I think that's true in itself for sure, but couldn't we also be talking about Grosjean MkI, Guttierez, Maldozer et al? Learning to race in F1 is learning to respect the space or big crashes happen. Therefore I think he is culpable whether he intended a crash or not.

Let's say he didn't; what did he think Massa WOULD do? I think he's either shown a cavalier attitude or a simple lack of awareness. Either way the fault (and therefore the penalty) remains with him.

 

[Samus]

@20832 - great graphic! Where's it from, or is it your own work?

It's from Reddit.

http://www.reddit.com/r/formula1

Beaten by seconds.

 

[20832]

It's from Reddit.

http://www.reddit.com/r/formula1

Beaten by seconds.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Incredible race. Very pleased with the outcome also. however the tv direction was awful. Missed Rosberg passing Hamilton, and only cut to Ricciardo passing Rosberg for the lead as it was happening. Spent about 20 seconds watching Massa's brother. Not good enough.

Anyway I thought Massa did everything he could to lose that race, from poor exits from the hairpin to forgetting to engage the DRS to finally the collision with Perez. It was Perez's fault for moving left but from the replay Massa was moving across to the right as well.

 

[niky]

I don't know, if that has been posted yet

That looks like pretty definite proof of guilt, to me.

I recall watching that on the onboards... thinking: Perez isn't trying to make that corner at all, sitting off the racing line... and then he jinked left. From Massa's onboards, it was a pretty sudden and violent jink.

I relinquish any objections to the penalty... seems pretty fair to me, at this point.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Force India have uploaded this image on Twitter:

It shows Massa drifting right in the moments before impact while Perez maintains his line.

 

[SagarisGTB]

Massa was moving right because the curve of the track is such. He wasn't moving towards the right edge of the track though, his line was consistently parallel to the edge, which is more important in this context.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Force India have uploaded this image on Twitter...it shows Massa drifting right in the moments before impact while Perez maintains his line.

I think they both came through the corner that way, the natural line takes Massa out to Perez's left and then Perez jinks.

https://vine.co/v/MD0BgJYVeam

You absolutely cannot move in the braking zone if you're the car ahead. Cardinal sin.

Perez had no reason to move there and presumably only did so due to Massa's proximity

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I don't know, if that has been posted yet

The outbraking is what I suggested early on, but what I didn't take in to consideration is Perez should have ensured this was viable with an eager Massa incoming.

 

[Dhalism]

Massa was moving right because the curve of the track is such. He wasn't moving towards the right edge of the track though, his line was consistently parallel to the edge, which is more important in this context.

Yea but he is the overtaking car he is responsible for a safe overtake and he was so far back he would have seen Perez if he paying any attention at all. If someone locked up their wheels and flew threw there would it be a penalty or a racing accident?

Penalties aside Massa has been racking up mistakes under pressure and the truth is, as a world class driver, he took himself out in an accident that couldve been easily avoided.

I think they both came through the corner that way, the natural line takes Massa out to Perez's left and then Perez jinks.



Perez had no reason to move there and presumably only did so due to Massa's proximity

From watching Perez's onboard it does not actually look like he moved there, looks weird, like the car gets out of shape slightly and he tries to correct it a bit. Considering the age of the tires seems like a pretty safe bet.

 

[Falango]

Just got home from Montreal. Went out there for my first F1 race, and what an amazing weekend! I had the opportunity to meet a few of the drivers and walk the pits on Thursday morning, sat in the grandstand at turns 8/9 Friday, on the end of the hairpin on Saturday, and at the start finish line on Sunday. Thrilling race, though I was hoping for a better Mercedes outcome, especially for Lewis. I'll post a few pics later once I sort through them!

As for the big crash, I agree with the penalty handed out. Watch this video, and you'll see Perez veer to the left (just by straightening his steering wheel early) and Massa just doesn't have the time to react. Every angle in this video shows it was clearly Perez at fault. SagarisGTB is right on with Massa holding his line relative to the track direction. Dhalism, it's hard to fault Massa when he was positioned for a safe pass. If you are passing a car on the highway, and he veers into you when you are along side, are you saying you're at fault? Massa did not make a mistake there at all. He did not take himself out. Unfortunately for Massa considering he had quite a good race weekend.

 

[TenEightyOne]

@Dhalism, fortunately the people who decide have gone on more than that' Perez's steering wheel shows a definite movement to the side. The stewards would have looked at the simultaneous suspension loads to see why that happened. If Perez's loads had shown a departure then their judgement would have been different.

Massa's driving hasn't been perfect through his career, I can certainly accept that. When you see Perez move (which he very clearly does, watch the right-side of the track from his onboard) he's doing so with the knowlede that Massa is there (he watched him in the mirror on the way down SF).

Perez is to blame in this one, I'm sure he didn't intend the consequences but that's what learning's for.

EDIT: Tree'd by @Falango with a much more well-worded answer

 

[Dhalism]

Just got home from Montreal. Went out there for my first F1 race, and what an amazing weekend! I had the opportunity to meet a few of the drivers and walk the pits on Thursday morning, sat in the grandstand at turns 8/9 Friday, on the end of the hairpin on Saturday, and at the start finish line on Sunday. Thrilling race, though I was hoping for a better Mercedes outcome, especially for Lewis. I'll post a few pics later once I sort through them!

As for the big crash, I agree with the penalty handed out. Watch this video, and you'll see Perez veer to the left (just by straightening his steering wheel early) and Massa just doesn't have the time to react. Every angle in this video shows it was clearly Perez at fault. SagarisGTB is right on with Massa holding his line relative to the track direction. Dhalism, it's hard to fault Massa when he was positioned for a safe pass. If you are passing a car on the highway, and he veers into you when you are along side, are you saying you're at fault? Massa did not make a mistake there at all. He did not take himself out. Unfortunately for Massa considering he had quite a good race weekend.

not sure I can agree with that, Perez has been going wide way before he veered left, and I'm not even sure if Massa would have avoided him even if he did not. His swing to the right was really violent.

@Dhalism, fortunately the people who decide have gone on more than that' Perez's steering wheel shows a definite movement to the side. The stewards would have looked at the simultaneous suspension loads to see why that happened. If Perez's loads had shown a departure then their judgement would have been different.

I wish i could be that optimistic. But i bet we'll be complaining about steward inconsistency all throughout the year. Either way it's up to Perez to speak out, it's a bit strange when he does everything but actually offer his idea of what has happened there.

 

[Falango]

I don't really know what you're disagreeing with, since I basically explained exactly what's in the video. I have no bias towards either driver. The onboard for Perez shows he straightens his steering wheel very early, so he's not following the line anymore. Look at his positioning on the track relative to Vettel as he's about to get hit. He is an entire car's width off the racing line. I walked the track after, and have a picture of where the skidmarks are. The Perez skidmarks start right smack down the center of the track.

 

[Dhalism]

I don't really know what you're disagreeing with, since I basically explained exactly what's in the video. I have no bias towards either driver. The onboard for Perez shows he straightens his steering wheel very early, so he's not following the line anymore. Look at his positioning on the track relative to Vettel as he's about to get hit. He is an entire car's width off the racing line. I walked the track after, and have a picture of where the skidmarks are. The Perez skidmarks start right smack down the center of the track.

he is entitled to take a wider line through that corner if he pleases, i dont understand how that bit is his fault. His fault is veering left in the middle of the corner, and my point is that Massa took the corner without taking into account where Perez's car was - it was going wide - and it seems to me they would at best touch even if Perez didnt veer.

 

[Falango]

The part where he makes that move into another car, that's where it's his fault...... Massa can't predict when someone is gonna make a move like that.

 

[Clark]

he is entitled to take a wider line through that corner if he pleases, i dont understand how that bit is his fault. His fault is veering left in the middle of the corner, and my point is that Massa took the corner without taking into account where Perez's car was - it was going wide - and it seems to me they would at best touch even if Perez didnt veer.

It's not like merging on a motorway, Massa didn't have time to read what Perez car was doing to avoid it. As the went round the slight right kink Perez stayed straight as opposed to hugging the right, Massa didn't expect that and didn't have time to react.

 

[jtv90069]

my point is that Massa took the corner without taking into account where Perez's car was - it was going wide - and it seems to me they would at best touch even if Perez didnt veer.

Massa wasn't going to touch if Perez held his line, but he wasn't leaving much room for error either. Perez was most at fault when he decided to change his line so late, it wasn't a mechanical issue or a loss of control but a decision he made that contributed the most.
Had Massa left more wiggle room it may have been avoided but the more room he leaves the further he has to go to get around and the less likely he is to pass. The problem is, regardless of where Massa was, Perez made an unpredictable move and left Massa with no where to go.

 

[TenEightyOne]

he is entitled to take a wider line through that corner if he pleases, i dont understand how that bit is his fault. His fault is veering left in the middle of the corner, and my point is that Massa took the corner without taking into account where Perez's car was - it was going wide - and it seems to me they would at best touch even if Perez didnt veer.

In F1 the cars do sometimes get alongside-and-ahead-of the car in front. The word is "overtaking", the rules and conventions for the driver being passed are clear. Perez didn't just move, he "jinked". He knew Massa was there. Those two facts together make him culpable.

Overtaking drivers take the responsibility for their own car and only to put it into places where they can pass. Massa did that, the place was suddenly filled by Perez moving hard-left.

None of the above is opinion, it's fact.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I think they both came through the corner that way, the natural line takes Massa out to Perez's left and then Perez jinks.

Well, they did post it in response to claims that Perez had knowingly endangered Massa.

I still think Perez moved across to defend against Massa, unaware of exactly how close Massa was. After all, his head is in a fixed position by way of the HANS device, and his peripheral view is blocked by the high sides of the cockpit. So his only view back is from the rearview mirrors, which are small and restrict rear vision to a narrow field. Even if they are convex mirrors to open up that field of view is widened, the trade-off is that perception is skewed.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I still think Perez moved across to defend against Massa, unaware of exactly how close Massa was. After all, his head is in a fixed position by way of the HANS device, and his peripheral view is blocked by the high sides of the cockpit. So his only view back is from the rearview mirrors, which are small and restrict rear vision to a narrow field. Even if they are convex mirrors to open up that field of view is widened, the trade-off is that perception is skewed.

I agree mostly

His head's fairly fixed but he was able to move it enough to be looking at Massa's car on the start/finish straight, to my mind that suggests that Perez should have expected Massa to be somewhere on the left.

An interesting theory... we know in previous years that drivers have been able to hear the cars behind them, I wonder if that's true this year? The sound projection is much less (and therefore in a much smaller and more direct "cone" emanating rearwards from the exhaust exit), that may have contributed to Perez's lack of situational awareness overall.

 

[rickykaka3]

Perez caused the accident

 

[Falango]

The sound projection is very little. I don't have experience hearing the old cars, though I did get to hear some of the historics race this weekend, and boy are they loud! These cars can't really be heard from 1-2 corners away. An example would be when I was sitting at the hairpin, I couldn't hear the cars exit turn 8/9. You saw them before you heard them really, so I wouldn't think these new cars can be located by sound when it comes to being a driver.

I'm pretty sure Perez was expecting Massa to be very close, but I don't think he realized he was as close as he was. Part of it could come down to him watching Vettel in front too. Vettel was incredibly lucky, and even took action when Massa's car came flying through, even before it had skidded passed really. Reaction time from Vettel was amazing.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Perez caused the accident

I'd say so

Look at this vid at 0:26, go through frame by frame. It doesn't take much steering angle to move the FIF1 side-to-side, you can see Perez very deliberately move that way... but then yank the wheel back just before the impact.

@prisonermonkeys, (EDIT: And @Falango) I think that supports your "not entirely aware" theory, I'm much better at aeronautical telemetry but I'd say that yank-to-the-right was instinctive (it's a big correction) as Perez saw Massa's very wide eyes in his mirror. Momentarily after that you "feel" the big hit.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Perez caused the accident

Thank you for that insight. Pretty much everyone already agrees with that.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Sebastian Vettel is a bloody good driver if he can avoid having an accident himself