FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[ItsHim]

So, iRacing and rFactor beat GT5, then, I guess?

[*]XBL being more stable
[*]XBL not being prone to being hacked

Totally invalid argument bringing PC sims up.

XBL is more versatile and far more advanced, though not more stable (people unable to join lobbies, disconnects). At least when I was a gold member.

Auction house in FM2 was glitched and never fixed. From unlocked paints to 'mirage' cars which appeared to be a certain car in the AH (mostly rare liveries) but after purchase weren't. This was probably tied in with XBL (as for quite some time you could receive cars as a silver member while this shouldn't have been possible). Some strange things going on with the T10 servers at that time.

And please don't get me started on ISR. At least they didn't make the same mistake twice and wheeled un some GTP support on covering the GT5 launch.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

The real life tracks in GT are generally very accurate. Tracks like Suzuka, Fuji, Laguna Seca, Tsukuba, Daytona, Circuit de la Sarthe, Monza, Indy and Top Gear Test Track. It is not just the Nurburgring. All of them tracks you can do a video comparison between GT5 and real life and the track surface and surroundings will look very close to being absolutely spot on.

This goes back to one of the problems with Forza tracks, what is it with them and making tracks look like they had some dragsters trying to go around the circuit in short bursts. The glare and the rubbering in ruin the look of the track. Drive tracks in GT5 after watching a race say on TV on the same track, the track surface and surroundings look very close to reality. The race in Suzuka recently for example. Go to Forza and drive the same track and you think what were they thinking with the way the glare, rubbering of tracks and general look of the track. T10 purposely do this too, they could make the tracks look a lot better by cleaning up the track surface a bit, also removing a lot of the glare. Nurburgring GP track is recently modelled in GT5 and Forza but there is a huge difference between how both look, GT5 looks spot on while on Forza I don't know what they are thinking on the curbing or the grass going off videos I've seen even in Forza 4. Forza 3 looked more comical on that track with it's very bright green grass and texture.

 

[Luminis]

Totally invalid argument bringing PC sims up.

Substitute them woth Race Pro and GTR, then.

XBL is more versatile and far more advanced, though not more stable (people unable to join lobbies, disconnects). At least when I was a gold member.

Dunno. I, for one, experiemced and heard about more outages and connection issues with PSN than XBL...

Auction house in FM2 was glitched and never fixed. From unlocked paints to 'mirage' cars which appeared to be a certain car in the AH (mostly rare liveries) but after purchase weren't. This was probably tied in with XBL (as for quite some time you could receive cars as a silver member while this shouldn't have been possible). Some strange things going on with the T10 servers at that time.

So, you're argument against FM4's auction house is that some stuff was wrong in FM2?

And please don't get me started on ISR. At least they didn't make the same mistake twice and wheeled un some GTP support on covering the GT5 launch.

It's just an example. I just doubt that every games site in the known universe is clueless about everything. Getting good marks on some sites may mean nothing. But getting good marks basically everywhere does mean something, in my opinion. Just saying. Metacritic, in my opinion, does give a somewhat decent overview of how good a game actually is. It's not perfect or always spot on, but it serves its purpose.

Granted, review scores aren't all that important. But they're more indicative of a game's quality than, say, sales figures.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[Scaff]

And the Playstation was created because Nintendo didn't coorporate with Sony after Sony wanted exclusive rights to manufacturing the Super CD addon for the Super Nintendo - so it's all Nintendo's achievement, really.

Slight correction.

Nintendo had already contracted Sony to design and manufacture the add-on, that was not in dispute at all.

Nintendo had also agreed to give Sony the profits for anything sold on CD format with Nintendo getting the profits for Cartridge sales. Someone at Nintendo agreed to this (which indicates quite a lack of communication within Nintendo at the time) and when the board found out they were not best pleased.

That a possible contract renegotiation would have been required is not a major problem (these happen daily in business), but rather how Nintendo dealt with it. At CES 1991 Sony announced the PS prototype developed with a new partnership with Nintendo, the very next day and with no notice given to Sony, Nintendo publicly announced they were scrapping the deal and starting fresh with Phillips.

Source (among many) - http://www.next-gen.biz/features/making-playstation

The Playstation was effectively a sort of Videogames Ford GT40, built after an agreed deal was reneged on and with almost the sole purpose of 'spanking' the other at their own game.


So while Nintendo did give birth to the seeds of the PS they arguably did so based on their own arrogance.


An off-topic I know, but an important one.


Scaff

 

[ItsHim]

Substitute them woth Race Pro and GTR, then.

Race Pro was unfortunately 'unfinished' in the online part of the game, especially collision detection. Lots of folks migrated to RacePro only to come back to FM. So no, no need for any substitutions.

So, you're argument against FM4's auction house is that some stuff was wrong in FM2?

I do what? Mate, you brought up the argument that XBL wasn't hacked. Which isn't true in the sense that at least it was glitched. Badly if one listened to all the whining on fm.net at that time.

It's just an example. I just doubt that every games site in the known universe is clueless about everything.

They aren't. Ign stated GT is a 10/10 sim in a 5/10 game. Which pretty much sums it up. Personally I'd say GT5 is as good as you make it if you take full benefit of the sandbox nature of the game.

 

[phillgt2002]

Simple answer: no. Better still...I was listening to the Gallardo (in GT5) the other day and guess what? The HKS CT230R sounds more like the actual real life Gallardo, and that too is wrong.



Is that a card you really want to play?



Are you grasping at things, having no real idea what it is you're talking about?



Looking and being accurate are two completely different matters.



Most of which aren't (or can't be) utilized properly in the immediate game itself.



Think about this, and then try again.



And the Playstation was *only* created to compete with Sega. See how that discredits whatever logic it is you're attempting to apply?



I don't even know what this is supposed to prove.



I..I'm not even going to bother with this one. I'm far too tired.



So Forza has the bigger, more powerful engine and is lighter? Again, your own applied logic defeats you.



Oh, the irony. Not particularly you (although I honestly wouldn't put it past you, given this reply).



And it's your job to prove to them that their opinion is wrong, right?



This has to be the single most self-handicapped argument I've ever seen here. So, they aren't competing because they're not on the same console (this begets logic the more it's said), and not only that, but because not everyone can afford both?

By that logic, Lamborghini shouldn't even exist; Ferruccio did nothing but waste his time, what he should have done is work directly at Ferrari.

Point proven , thread over.

 

[NA]

Point proven , thread over.

Can't be. I just finnished my book, and I need at least three more days of reading material from this forum before FM4 gets here.

 

[xxDingerxx]

Right, i'm going to get on this "track" debate.

Track surrounding's aside, the main issue with Forza is inaccuracies with the track layout. I cant say to much about the american tracks like Road America but Nurburgring GP, Nordschleife, Suzuka, Silverstone, Catalunya are all grossly inaccurate to the point of being butchered.

Abbey, Bridge and Becketts at Silverstone are horribly messed up corners which bare little resemblance to their RL counterparts. The rest of the corners all have minor errors which change how the circuit flows.

Suzuka has major issues at Sppon and leading to the hairpin along with other minors. Catalunya, Seat and campsa and as for Nordschleife, well just way too many to mention.

The list just goes on and on.

GT also has some inaccuracies but they are few and far between. Forza's main issue is they keep dumbing down these tracks for the casuals by lessening camber and widening the damn track.

Sorry but Forza has too many mistakes to be taken seriously in track layout

 

[phillgt2002]

Can't be. I just finnished my book, and I need at least three more days of reading material from this forum before FM4 gets here.

Now. Point Proven !

Forza 4 has reached GT5 levels of details.

 

[NA]

Now. Point Proven !

Thankfully, that's never stopped anyone before.

 

[MagpieRacer]

You do realise the entire interior is modelled in Forza 3 right? It would require little to no work what so ever to incorporate an "over your shoulder" rear view.

In all honesty I did not realise. For some reason I thought they had modelled it all from an exterior perspective and then had a higher detail seperate model for the cockpit view minus detail you dont see, e.g. stuff behind you. I might be thinking of another game in that regard.

 

[Luminis]

Slight correction.

[snip]

Scaff

Thanks for the info. I wasn't that sure of the situation in detail, myself

Race Pro was unfortunately 'unfinished' in the online part of the game, especially collision detection. Lots of folks migrated to RacePro only to come back to FM. So no, no need for any substitutions.

Given that the user I quoted was implying that physics and track accuracy is all that matters, I hardly see a point in this 'debate'. Keep in mind, his opinion, not mine.

I do what? Mate, you brought up the argument that XBL wasn't hacked. Which isn't true in the sense that at least it was glitched. Badly if one listened to all the whining on fm.net at that time.

So, a flaw in the game's Auction House equals a security issue in the whole system now? I mean, what?

They aren't. Ign stated GT is a 10/10 sim in a 5/10 game. Which pretty much sums it up. Personally I'd say GT5 is as good as you make it if you take full benefit of the sandbox nature of the game.

So, then, if IGN did the GT5 review right, why wouldn't the overall scores for both games (GT5: 8.5, FM4: 9.5) be comparable, then? Why wouldn't they be indicative of the game's respective quality?

 

[Daverytimes]

So, iRacing and rFactor beat GT5, then, I guess?

See, this is the problem with every one of you. The guy was talking about Forza and Forza only, who said anything about iracing or Rfactor?. We all know that both of those games are better than GT5 in the car handling department and i bet you he knows that too which was why he said "The day FORZA beats gt5 is the day they get the physics right". Physics is a broad term but i believe he meant the car handling or feel, would it kill any of you in here to just say yes or no on something without trying to justify why it should be that way. I find it quite sad that i and many gt and forza fans can come to an agreement on a certain subject in a troll thread created on gaf but the so-called enthusiats can't come to an agreement unless you say something bad about GT5.

 

[ItsHim]

So, a flaw in the game's Auction House equals a security issue in the whole system now? I mean, what?

You got it at last it seems.

So, then, if IGN did the GT5 review right, why wouldn't the overall scores for both games (GT5: 8.5, FM4: 9.5) be comparable, then? Why wouldn't they be indicative of the game's respective quality?

Because these averages are mathematically wrong anyway if you want an smart ass answer.

 

[Daverytimes]

I like the way some Gaffer's describes GT5
"Highest highs and lowest low's", i feel the same. When GT5 is in it's highest Forza can not touch it, when it's in it's lowest low's Forza can't touch it either (Which is good). Forza strikes a great balance.

 

[daus26]

Now. Point Proven !

Forza 4 has reached GT5 levels of details.

In terms of lighting, especially on the cars, I think GT5 is more advanced. The interior and driver looking into the car's inside from the outside is clearly better in GT5 as well. They both look good, but it just shows how lighting is very important when it comes to graphics, not just the number of pixels and such.

It's hard to compare the level of details between FM and GT5, because in GT5, the level of detail varies. One track looks better than the other, and then the whole standard cars thing. However, if we are to compare GT5's best (e.g. Tokyo track and Premium cars, rather than Autumn Ring/standard Vauxhall or something), GT5 has the clear edge. If we're to compare it overall, they're either even, or FM has the advantage, except lighting.

 

[SparksBCN]

Right, i'm going to get on this "track" debate.

Track surrounding's aside, the main issue with Forza is inaccuracies with the track layout. I cant say to much about the american tracks like Road America but Nurburgring GP, Nordschleife, Suzuka, Silverstone, Catalunya are all grossly inaccurate to the point of being butchered.

Abbey, Bridge and Becketts at Silverstone are horribly messed up corners which bare little resemblance to their RL counterparts. The rest of the corners all have minor errors which change how the circuit flows.

Suzuka has major issues at Sppon and leading to the hairpin along with other minors. Catalunya, Seat and campsa and as for Nordschleife, well just way too many to mention.

The list just goes on and on.

GT also has some inaccuracies but they are few and far between. Forza's main issue is they keep dumbing down these tracks for the casuals by lessening camber and widening the damn track.

Sorry but Forza has too many mistakes to be taken seriously in track layout

Excuse me, but as someone who lives at 20 minutes from the circuit and has driven in it quite a few times I'm going to tell you that the Circuit de Catalunya is perfectly recreated and without any inaccuracies.

Can you prove all the inaccuracies you mention with pictures or videos? Or it's just talking?

 

[Vaxxtx]

Right, i'm going to get on this "track" debate.

Track surrounding's aside, the main issue with Forza is inaccuracies with the track layout. I cant say to much about the american tracks like Road America but Nurburgring GP, Nordschleife, Suzuka, Silverstone, Catalunya are all grossly inaccurate to the point of being butchered.

Abbey, Bridge and Becketts at Silverstone are horribly messed up corners which bare little resemblance to their RL counterparts. The rest of the corners all have minor errors which change how the circuit flows.

Suzuka has major issues at Sppon and leading to the hairpin along with other minors. Catalunya, Seat and campsa and as for Nordschleife, well just way too many to mention.

The list just goes on and on.

GT also has some inaccuracies but they are few and far between. Forza's main issue is they keep dumbing down these tracks for the casuals by lessening camber and widening the damn track.

Sorry but Forza has too many mistakes to be taken seriously in track layout

Excuse me, but as someone who lives at 20 minutes from the circuit and has driven in it quite a few times I'm going to tell you that the Circuit de Catalunya is perfectly recreated and without any inaccuracies.

Can you prove all the inaccuracies you mention with pictures or videos? Or it's just talking?

I was going to ask fo the same thing, but Sparks beat me to it.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

I find GT5 innacurate.
Look at Laguna Seca, the best track in the world.
Not even close to accurate.

 

[Spagetti69]

I find GT5 innacurate.
Look at Laguna Seca, the best track in the world.
Not even close to accurate.

JDM king spotted inaccuracies as well, I wouldnt have noticed if it wasn't for him.

I would be lying if I said it didn't bother me because it does. Although not as much as it irks other people.

Shift 2's track accuracy is way off in both dimensions and bling added to the surrounding scenery. Still like the tracks though.

 

[Luminis]

See, this is the problem with every on of you. The guy was talking about Forza and Forza only, who said anything about iracing or Rfactor?. We all know that both of those games are better than GT5 in the car handling department and i bet you he knows that too which was why he said "The day FORZA beats gt5 is the day they get the physics right". Physics is a broad term but i beilive he meant the car handling or feel, would it kill any of you in here to just say yes or no on something without trying to justify why it should be that way. I find it quite sad that i and many gt and forza fans can come to an agreement on a certain subject in a troll thread created on gaf but the so-called enthusiats can't come to an agreement unless you say something bad about GT5.

Physics is something that's closely related to your experience, expectations and opinions. Thus, I'd say it's hard to judge in this case.
If GT5 is currently king, and better physics and accuracy would make FM4 king, how come games that do that already aren't king? That's all I'm saying. It's just that I can't get my head around people who want to narrow this argument down to just physics. Because, if that's all you care about, why are you even caring about either game?

My whole point isn't to mock GT5, because the driving feel is one of the thigns PD did get right, in my opinion, and I said so various times already. The point is to give you an example as to why I find it a bit strange to broadly state that FM can't be better until it has better physics.

I mean, that would mean that FM6 could feature perfect Force Feedback every car ever produced, every tuning part ever conceived, every modification ever done, every racetrack and driving road in the world with perfect 24h cicle and chaanging weather, and all of that could look so good that you couldn't possibly tell it from a real life picture or video - and yet, GT5 would be better if it has better physics and a more accurate 'Ring.

Sounds strange, no?

I'm not disputing that GT5 has great physics. Better than FM4? Hard to say, I've liked the demo a lot with both a pad and a wheel, but I'll have to drive more cars to make the final call.

As he just said physics, though... May I include collision physics, for example, into the debate?

You got it at last it seems.

Wait a second. PSN was down for weeks, for every single PSN user there is. With credit card info of a whole darn lot of people being leaked as well. and you compare that to some people having issues with FM2's auction house? Are you that desperate to make a point?

Because these averages are mathematically wrong anyway if you want an smart ass answer.

Well, yeah, 5/10 game and 10/10 simulator would equal a 7.5/10 rating, not 8.5/10.

And if you want to have a mathematically correct end score, for GT5, it was:

Presentation: 7
Graphics: 9
Sound: 8
Gameplay: 9
Lasting Appeal: 9

Total: 42. Devided by 5 = 8.4.

And Forza 4:

Presentation: 9.5
Graphics: 9.5
Sound: 9.5
Gameplay: 9.5
Lasting Appeal: 10

Total: 48. Devided by 5 = 9.6.

Yeah, those averages are so far off, mathematically, it's barely believable! And if you don't like the averages, they rated FM4 higher in every single category individually, anyways.

I mean, I'm sure you'll come up with another reason as to why those scores are meaningless, even if both are coming from the site you yourself said wasn't clueless about what they were saying, but still...

 

[BusierDonkey]

JDM king spotted inaccuracies as well, I wouldnt have noticed if it wasn't for him.

I would be lying if I said it didn't bother me because it does. Although not as much as it irks other people.

Shift 2's track accuracy is way off in both dimensions and bling added to the surrounding scenery. Still like the tracks though.

Shift 2's versions of Suzuka and Catalunya were so off I almost didn't recognise the tracks at all. Seeing elevation changes at Laguna Seca in Shift 2 actually made me start laughing. That game was such a mess.

 

[vandaliser]

In a nutshell, yes.

I won't bother with the rest of your opinions as there just that. Your opinions.

You forgot about leaderboards as well BTW.

Gaming sites are a joke this generation. Especially American ones.

These guys gave Gran theft Auto 4 10s everywhere. Bloody hell. Has anyone seen ars technica review of Forza 4? Or ign, edge and gamespot reviews of GT5. Very definition of laughable.

what's funny in all this Prologue didnt escape thrashing either which didnt have any of the issues GT5 is being blamed for.

I suggest everyone here to read Gamespot, IGN and edge reviews of GT5 and try and keep a straight face. I dare ya. I double dare ya!

As for anyone looking for track inaccuracies in Forza. Look no further than the Green hell.

 

[McLaren]

Shift 2's versions of Suzuka and Catalunya were so off I almost didn't recognise the tracks at all. Seeing elevation changes at Sebring in Shift 2 actually made me start laughing. That game was such a mess.

Sebring isn't in Shift 2, though....

 

[SparksBCN]

Shift 2's versions of Suzuka and Catalunya were so off I almost didn't recognise the tracks at all. Seeing elevation changes at Sebring in Shift 2 actually made me start laughing. That game was such a mess.

They aren't THAT off. Catalunya has some inaccuracies here and there, same as Suzuka, but nothing very blatant, like Bathurst or Road America for example. And Sebring it's not on the game...

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Gaming sites are a joke this generation. Especially American ones.

These guys gave Gran theft Auto 4 10s everywhere. Bloody hell. Has anyone seen ars technica review of Forza 4? Or ign, edge and gamespot reviews of GT5. Very definition of laughable.

what's funny in all this Prologue didnt escape thrashing either which didnt have any of the issues GT5 is being blamed for.

I suggest everyone here to read Gamespot, IGN and edge reviews of GT5 and try and keep a straight face. I dare ya. I double dare ya!

As for anyone looking for track inaccuracies in Forza. Look no further than the Green hell.

It's official YOU are the one not knowing what you are talking about.
Nothing is wrong with AMERICAN gaming review sites, until they go against what you want?
Also, for track innacuracies in GT look no further than Laguna Seca. Has it occurred to you that not everyone cares about Nurburgring? Also, it's not an inaccuracy it was made intentionally like that for Online racing.
I'd rather be able to have fun racing on the track than to have to wait 5 or 6 turns every lap for an passing attempt.

 

[Spagetti69]

So people on your ignore list show up in quotes. That's interesting.

 

[FyreandIce]

Gaming sites are a joke this generation. Especially American ones.

These guys gave Gran theft Auto 4 10s everywhere. Bloody hell. Has anyone seen ars technica review of Forza 4? Or ign, edge and gamespot reviews of GT5. Very definition of laughable.

what's funny in all this Prologue didnt escape thrashing either which didnt have any of the issues GT5 is being blamed for.

I suggest everyone here to read Gamespot, IGN and edge reviews of GT5 and try and keep a straight face. I dare ya. I double dare ya!

As for anyone looking for track inaccuracies in Forza. Look no further than the Green hell.

So as soon as Forza is rated higher than GT the reviews are instantly biased and the reviewers are bribed, correct?

And fyi, 3 of the 6 perfect scores for FM4 on Metacritic are from European reviewers. Are European reviewers now super biased and know nothing?

 

[prymet1me]

One side of this argument seems to be grasping and trying to hard.

 

[Luminis]

Gaming sites are a joke this generation. Especially American ones.

These guys gave Gran theft Auto 4 10s everywhere. Bloody hell. Has anyone seen ars technica review of Forza 4? Or ign, edge and gamespot reviews of GT5. Very definition of laughable.

what's funny in all this Prologue didnt escape thrashing either which didnt have any of the issues GT5 is being blamed for.

I suggest everyone here to read Gamespot, IGN and edge reviews of GT5 and try and keep a straight face. I dare ya. I double dare ya!

As for anyone looking for track inaccuracies in Forza. Look no further than the Green hell.

You know what makes it impossibke for me to keep a straight face?

People who tell us that everyone is biased, but them! I mean, what?! Does it seem impossible to you that, maybe, somehow GT5 deserved its overall score, just as FM4 deserves its score?

Or, let me phrase this differently:

What's more likely? That the vast majority of gaming sites is biased and off on their judgment and that you're the only one who's thinking straight (alongside a few folks in here), or that you're the one who's a bit off with his judgment?