Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Blitz24]

Browsing the comment section on Israel Times related to this news seems to indicate this will be a deeply unpopular move in Israel. People seem to like Gallant more than Netanyahu at this point, and that's on the pro-war side.

100% it is a troubling move because he was seen as the voice of reason.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Smells like tribal spirit:

How Four Posts on Instagram Destroyed Her Life

On Oct. 7, an Israeli college student opened her phone. What she did next landed her in prison.

www.nytimes.com

In the 1950s, Jewish leaders were concerned that Nazareth might expand too far, so they drew a tight boundary around the city and established a new Jewish town, Nof HaGalil, right on its border, cinching the population in tightly.

There are jobs at a strip of factories to the north, making cabinets or truck bodies, but the tax district is drawn so that revenues flow not to the Arab areas, but to Nof HaGalil. This is one reason that the four-lane road that divides the two cities is actually a barrier between one political reality and another. On the Nazareth side, the streets are busy with activity, and seamstresses and electronics-repair shops dominate the first floors of the buildings, but the trash isn’t collected regularly, and there are hardly any public parks or playgrounds. On the Nof HaGalil side, a sterile quiet pervades, but the smoothly paved streets run past children playing in parks, and office buildings and shopping malls loom over the surrounding hills.

But that is not the whole story. Israel’s self-portrait as a democracy of all of its citizens was always in tension with its other mission, which was formalized in a Knesset bill in 2018: to be a “nation-state of the Jewish people.” In practice, this means that the government can never act against the interests of the Jewish majority, from the divvying up of tax dollars to the flow of clean water to the zoning of new towns. Arabs are citizens of the country of Israel, but not members of the Jewish nation — they are “citizen strangers,” as the George Washington University historian Shira Robinson has put it. “We don’t want them to be part of us,” Hillel Cohen, a professor of Islam and Middle East Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, told me, summarizing the mainstream position (which is not his personal view). “They can never be full Israelis.”

 

[HenrySwanson]

I'm sure no one could have seen this coming (if true):

Amsterdam police arrest more than 60 people after attacks on Israeli football fans

Plane carrying fans home lands in Israel as Amsterdam mayor condemns ‘hit and run’ attacks on visiting supporters

www.theguardian.com

Spoiler: Language warning

 

[Scaff]

I'm sure no one could have seen this coming (if true):

That appears to be a rather one-sided view given the reports now coming out, and to be blunt seem driven by football hooligans' are idiots, as your second piece illustrates.

Al-Jazeera appear to offer a more balanced view.

Israeli football fans clash with protesters in Amsterdam

Details of incidents unclear, but Maccabi Tel Aviv supporters damaged Palestinian flags in city before match.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[p78]

You reap what you sow.

These Zionist truly don't understand how much a big part of the world hates them.

 

[Fezzik]

PR victory achieved. "Rescue planes" cancelled. Job done.

Meanwhile

Israel’s ousted defence minister, Yoav Gallant, has reportedly said the army has achieved all its objectives in Gaza and that Netanyahu rejected a hostages-for-peace deal against the advice of his own security establishment. Gallant was speaking to hostages’ families on Thursday, two days after being sacked by Netanyahu, and reports of his remarks quickly surfaced in Israeli media.

Israeli news article on that

After his firing, Gallant tells hostage families Netanyahu needlessly keeping IDF in Gaza

As dismissal takes effect, US expresses concern that coordination will be affected, Biden officials skeptical over PM's assurances he is not planning wider purge of security chiefs

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[sw3g005]

Christ... when even a defence minister who recently worked under Netanyahu goes against him, that's when you know this never was a war about defeating Hamas, it's a war of keeping Netanyahu in power while destroying Palestine and Palestinians in the process - or rather, if it wasn't obvious before it should be now. I doubt it'll change peoples' mind, but it'll 100% confirm what people has been saying since it started, especially given what his replacement is. Dude almost sounds more psychopathic than Netanyahu geez.

 

[Joey D]

These Zionist truly don't understand how much a big part of the world hates them.

They absolutely understand how much parts of the world hate them; they just brand it as antisemitism. My family gets it all the time from my wife's side. Several of her relatives are Zionists and claim that we are antisemitic because we don't unconditionally support Israel, and at worst, we support the Palestinians. It's gotten to the point where we don't even talk to parts of the family over it.

 

[Dennisch]

I'm sure no one could have seen this coming (if true):

Amsterdam police arrest more than 60 people after attacks on Israeli football fans

Plane carrying fans home lands in Israel as Amsterdam mayor condemns ‘hit and run’ attacks on visiting supporters

www.theguardian.com

Spoiler: Language warning

This wasn't hooligans vs hooligans, this was muslims searching actively for Israelis.

 

[Strittan]

This wasn't hooligans vs hooligans, this was muslims searching actively for Israelis.

I wonder why? What harm has Israel ever done?

 

[Fezzik]

This wasn't hooligans vs hooligans, this was muslims searching actively for Israelis.

No, it was hooliganism first, by a fanbase with history of it, and then the targeted attacks. Blame on both sides.

Amsterdam’s police chief, Peter Holla, said there had been “incidents on both sides”, starting on Wednesday night when Maccabi fans tore down a Palestinian flag from the facade of a building in the city centre and shouted “**** you Palestine”.


Holla said Maccabi had vandalised a taxi, which was followed by “an online call” to mobilise taxi drivers to a casino, where 400 Israeli supporters were present. Police had safely escorted supporters out of the casino, he said.

A social media video verified by Reuters showed Maccabi fans setting off flares and chanting “Ole, ole, let the IDF win, we will **** the Arabs”, referring to the Israel Defense Forces.

The police chief said a large crowd of Maccabi supporters had then gathered on Dam Square on Thursday lunchtime and there had been “fights on both sides”.

Before the match, police escorted pro-Palestine demonstrators to an agreed protest location, but said they then split into small groups “looking for confrontation”.

Amsterdam police arrest more than 60 people after attacks on Israeli football fans

Plane carrying fans home lands in Israel as Amsterdam mayor condemns ‘hit and run’ attacks on visiting supporters

www.theguardian.com

 

[p78]

When you singing **** you Palestina, we are gonna win, **** the Arabs, there will be repercussions. And then Netanyahu comparing it to Cristal night... shame on him.

Edit

I dont condone the violence. I just understand the why.

 

[Dennisch]

Perhaps I should be a bit more clear, the government is currently in bit of a shock because of the active hunting of Jews/Israelis in Amsterdam. What happened before was hooligan behaviour as usual, they're used to that.

Nobody cares about the singing, or that torn down flag. They were having a reenactment of what happened in the late 30's and 40's and that's the hot topic which will probably cost the major of Amsterdam her job, and probably some others too.

And a bunch of jew hunters will have to face antisemitism charges.

 

[inCloud]

there will be repercussions

Victim blaming at its finest. Marvelous

 

[Scaff]

Victim blaming at its finest. Marvelous

Ah, quote mining again, no surprise.

 

[HenrySwanson]

“We want Jewish blood,” is what Aaron, 33, from north London, heard from his attackers, who were Muslim men. He ended up in hospital receiving stitches, his face pouring with Jewish blood after being punched in the face for stepping in to help a Maccabi fan, who was being beaten on the floor.

Amsterdam attacks were no Kristallnacht, but Europe’s Jews should be afraid

Some Israeli football fans behaved thuggishly but the extreme and organised violence meted out to them the following day speaks of a terrifying resurgence of antisemitism

www.thetimes.com

Tired of head in sand now. It's boring, unbecoming and completely out of touch with recent events.

 

[Fezzik]

Arrest warrants issued for Israeli PM Netanyahu and former defence secretary Gallant and senior Hamas commander over alleged war crimes

An arrest warrant was also issued for Hamas leader Mohammed Deif, whom Israel claims to have killed earlier this year.

news.sky.com

Let’s see the spineless response from governments that called for Putin’s arrest under ICC warrants

Ah there they are

The US “fundamentally rejects” a decision by the international criminal court (ICC) to issue arrest warrants for the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and the country’s former defence minister Yoav Gallant, the White House said.

 

[Danoff]

“We want Jewish blood,” is what Aaron, 33, from north London, heard from his attackers, who were Muslim men. He ended up in hospital receiving stitches, his face pouring with Jewish blood after being punched in the face for stepping in to help a Maccabi fan, who was being beaten on the floor.

Amsterdam attacks were no Kristallnacht, but Europe’s Jews should be afraid

Some Israeli football fans behaved thuggishly but the extreme and organised violence meted out to them the following day speaks of a terrifying resurgence of antisemitism

www.thetimes.com

Tired of head in sand now. It's boring, unbecoming and completely out of touch with recent events.

Whatever point you're trying to make with this, posting an account of someone being punched by a racist is not making it.

 

[p78]

It's a new Dreyfuss Trial.
The ICC is Antisemitical.

Lol, i hope they get arrested quickly.

 

[GranTurNismo]

Keir Starmer comes out in support of the ICC as it issues arrests warrants for Netanyahu:

Starmer backs International Criminal Court after it issues arrest warrant for Benjamin Netanyahu

Keir Starmer has backed the International Criminal Court after it issued an arrest warrant for Benjamin Netanyahu, as well as Israel's former defence minister and a Hamas leader.

www.lbc.co.uk

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Seems like most of the EU is saying they would comply with the warrant. Good.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Seems like most of the EU is saying they would comply with the warrant. Good.

Then we need to go after Xi (Uighurs), Erdogan (Kurds), and many other African leaders.

Whatever point you're trying to make with this, posting an account of someone being punched by a racist is not making it.

More in link - can be accessed with Archive.is.

Would quite prefer we don't devolve into Lebanon-type sectarianism.

 

[Scaff]

Then we need to go after Xi (Uighurs), Erdogan (Kurds), and many other African leaders.

More than happy if we go down that route.

More in link - can be accessed with Archive.is.

This has been covered before, sources back up what you are saying, not replace it.

Would quite prefer we don't devolve into Lebanon-type sectarianism.

And yet you don't mention that Western coverage of what happened in Amsterdam has been spectacularly one-sided, and at times re-edited and re-posted to change the narrative, as this example showing Sky news (Murdoch owned for those outside the UK) demonstrates.

Video shows exactly how Sky News edited footage of football violence in Amsterdam

FOOTAGE shared on social media has shown how Sky News edited footage on violence in Amsterdam on Thursday night...

www.thenational.scot

 

[HenrySwanson]

More than happy if we go down that route.

That's good, but we likely won't. We have to push to see why that's the case since it can't be because the other events are more recent.

This has been covered before, sources back up what you are saying, not replace it.

This part is the most relevant:

But the response to this agonising situation in some quarters has also been revealing. There has been a persistent inability and unwillingness to distinguish between Jews and the actions of Israel. The language used has not just been that of humanitarian outrage but a violent desire to dismantle Israel and eradicate it from the map. And to hold all who even loosely support the Jewish state as collectively responsible for any of its military overreach. This is not generally how people in this country respond to other wars, from Yemen to Sudan to Ukraine to Syria. Somehow, it lands differently when it is the Jews doing the shooting.

Considerable Muslim migration into western Europe in recent decades means that cities from London to Paris to Amsterdam now have large populations for whom this conflict feels very personal, while also being a vehicle to express their more general frustrations with the West. Unfortunately, antisemitism is a commonplace part of these frustrations, though I sometimes feel as though the real argument here is the civilisational one that has been going on between Christianity and Islam since the Crusades, with the Jews (as ever) becoming the battlefield. Either way, antisemitism has now become a part of everyday life, online and in our streets, in a way many Jews hoped we’d never see again. Our future is now cloudier.

I.e. we split into groups based on certain factors like ethnicity, religion. It takes varying degrees of provocation to set a group off against another/others.

And yet you don't mention that Western coverage of what happened in Amsterdam has been spectacularly one-sided, and at times re-edited and re-posted to change the narrative, as this example showing Sky news (Murdoch owned for those outside the UK) demonstrates.

Video shows exactly how Sky News edited footage of football violence in Amsterdam

FOOTAGE shared on social media has shown how Sky News edited footage on violence in Amsterdam on Thursday night...

www.thenational.scot

I was the first person to post the news:

Israel - Palestine discussion thread

Browsing the comment section on Israel Times related to this news seems to indicate this will be a deeply unpopular move in Israel. People seem to like Gallant more than Netanyahu at this point, and that's on the pro-war side. 100% it is a troubling move because he was seen as the voice of reason.

www.gtplanet.net

Which included a tweet showing the antecedent behaviour. I'm not sure what I have to include in my posts from now on since I thought it redundant to show what I've shown before. The Maccabi fans' behaviour provides the reason for the reaction but doesn't excuse its severity.

 

[Scaff]

This part is the most relevant:

But the response to this agonising situation in some quarters has also been revealing. There has been a persistent inability and unwillingness to distinguish between Jews and the actions of Israel.

This is simply untrue, and pretty much parrots the Israeli state line that labels any, and all criticism of Israel and its actions as antisemitic. It's relevant, but not, I suspect for the reason you believe, it's relevant as its an example of propaganda, or Hasbara as it's policy name goes by.

Hasbara: the dark art of spinning a war

Open access // by Alain Gresh (Le Monde diplomatique - English edition, May 2024)

mondediplo.com

The language used has not just been that of humanitarian outrage but a violent desire to dismantle Israel and eradicate it from the map. And to hold all who even loosely support the Jewish state as collectively responsible for any of its military overreach. This is not generally how people in this country respond to other wars, from Yemen to Sudan to Ukraine to Syria. Somehow, it lands differently when it is the Jews doing the shooting.

Considerable Muslim migration into western Europe in recent decades means that cities from London to Paris to Amsterdam now have large populations for whom this conflict feels very personal, while also being a vehicle to express their more general frustrations with the West. Unfortunately, antisemitism is a commonplace part of these frustrations, though I sometimes feel as though the real argument here is the civilisational one that has been going on between Christianity and Islam since the Crusades, with the Jews (as ever) becoming the battlefield. Either way, antisemitism has now become a part of everyday life, online and in our streets, in a way many Jews hoped we’d never see again. Our future is now cloudier.

I.e. we split into groups based on certain factors like ethnicity, religion. It takes varying degrees of provocation to set a group off against another/others.

The outrage has not been over ethnicity or religion. It's been outrage at atrocity. First the atrocity of the initial attack by Hamas, and then about the wildly disproportionate atrocity that has been Israels' response. I also want to be completely clear here, we are not dealing with parity of atrocity here, that ship sailed months ago.

It's also worth repeating that Hamas only got into the position to be as strong as they were because of a deliberate policy to fund and arm them as a counterpoint to Fatah, and directly undermine any prospect of a two-state solution. Just to be transparent here, this wasn't the likes of Iran doing this, but Israel themselves.

I was the first person to post the news:

Israel - Palestine discussion thread

Browsing the comment section on Israel Times related to this news seems to indicate this will be a deeply unpopular move in Israel. People seem to like Gallant more than Netanyahu at this point, and that's on the pro-war side. 100% it is a troubling move because he was seen as the voice of reason.

www.gtplanet.net

Which included a tweet showing the antecedent behaviour. I'm not sure what I have to include in my posts from now on since I thought it redundant to show what I've shown before. The Maccabi fans' behaviour provides the reason for the reaction but doesn't excuse its severity.

Your link has nothing at all to do with the 'whitewashing' of the actual cause and the severity of the whitewash, nor how blatantly it was done. So, no you were not the first to post this news.

 

[HenrySwanson]

This is simply untrue, and pretty much parrots the Israeli state line that labels any, and all criticism of Israel and its actions as antisemitic. It's relevant, but not, I suspect for the reason you believe, it's relevant as its an example of propaganda, or Hasbara as it's policy name goes by.

Hasbara: the dark art of spinning a war

Open access // by Alain Gresh (Le Monde diplomatique - English edition, May 2024)

mondediplo.com

I don't agree.

Since October 7th, there have been record amounts of reports of antisemitism:

UK antisemitic hate incidents surge in 2024, says charity

The Jewish securities charity CST recorded 1,978 anti-Jewish hate incidents from January to June 2024.

www.bbc.co.uk

Loading…

www.thetimes.com

Along with this, there has been an uptick in hate crimes against Muslims/Islam:

Antisemitic hate crimes in London treble in year, data shows

Exclusive: The Metropolitan Police recorded a rapid rise in faith-based hate crime in 2023

www.independent.co.uk

What is that, if not evidence of the claim that "There has been a persistent inability and unwillingness to distinguish between Jews and the actions of Israel."? I.e. that people are holding members of a group accountable for things happening thousands of miles away perpetrated by a group that they may have no association with (also, those London Muslim/Islam stats were from before the Southport riots).

Hasbara explains the almost parody-like reactions of Netanyahu to any form of criticism, but not this.

The outrage has not been over ethnicity or religion. It's been outrage at atrocity. First the atrocity of the initial attack by Hamas, and then about the wildly disproportionate atrocity that has been Israels' response. I also want to be completely clear here, we are not dealing with parity of atrocity here, that ship sailed months ago.

Again, why is there no outrage over the many other atrocities in the world today? Do you expect the ICC to come down on Xi anytime soon? Expect the Tik Tokers to mass delete their app because it's Chinese (ha)? Or is this prosecution muddied by the fact that it's politically expedient for the prosecutor, Karim Khan, to bring charges at this stage....

It's also worth repeating that Hamas only got into the position to be as strong as they were because of a deliberate policy to fund and arm them as a counterpoint to Fatah, and directly undermine any prospect of a two-state solution. Just to be transparent here, this wasn't the likes of Iran doing this, but Israel themselves.

They did not "only" get into that position because of Israel's funding - they were helped into that position by their (Israel's) approach, however. Israel sees itself as now fighting a proxy war with Iran by engaging with the "axis of resistance."

 

[Scaff]

I don't agree.

Since October 7th, there have been record amounts of reports of antisemitism:

UK antisemitic hate incidents surge in 2024, says charity

The Jewish securities charity CST recorded 1,978 anti-Jewish hate incidents from January to June 2024.

www.bbc.co.uk

View attachment 1408075

Loading…

www.thetimes.com

Along with this, there has been an uptick in hate crimes against Muslims/Islam:

Antisemitic hate crimes in London treble in year, data shows

Exclusive: The Metropolitan Police recorded a rapid rise in faith-based hate crime in 2023

www.independent.co.uk

What is that, if not evidence of the claim that "There has been a persistent inability and unwillingness to distinguish between Jews and the actions of Israel."? I.e. that people are holding members of a group accountable for things happening thousands of miles away perpetrated by a group that they may have no association with (also, those London Muslim/Islam stats were from before the Southport riots).

One ("There has been a persistent inability and unwillingness to distinguish between Jews and the actions of Israel.") is a blanket catch-all for any and all criticism of Israel, it's not nuanced, it's not quantified, it's not contextualised. It's a very, very different thing.

Look at the language used to describe the two sides in that article, not just of the day, but of the conflict itself, if you can't see the clear difference then I don't think you are even close to looking at it objectively or critically. The way you introduced the article into the thread here is clear enough evidence of that, zero critical consideration of the piece and a focus on one-side as being responsible.

Hasbara explains the almost parody-like reactions of Netanyahu to any form of criticism, but not this.

If that's all you think it is, then you don't understand it.

Again, why is there no outrage over the many other atrocities in the world today? Do you expect the ICC to come down on Xi anytime soon? Expect the Tik Tokers to mass delete their app because it's Chinese (ha)? Or is this prosecution muddied by the fact that it's politically expedient for the prosecutor, Karim Khan, to bring charges at this stage....

Whatoutism doesn't help this at all, it's a distraction you are attempting to use in place of a reasoned position.

They did not "only" get into that position because of Israel's funding - they were helped into that position by their (Israel's) approach, however. Israel sees itself as now fighting a proxy war with Iran by engaging with the "axis of resistance."

Do you believe there's a difference in final aims between Israel's funding of Hamas and Israel's approach to the situation? They seem rather effectively aligned to me.

 

[Danoff]

Since October 7th, there have been record amounts of reports of antisemitism:

Perhaps it would help to explain the point you want to make. I'm sure that the point is not record amounts of antisemitism. The only thing you offered that approached that kind of point was this:

I.e. we split into groups based on certain factors like ethnicity, religion. It takes varying degrees of provocation to set a group off against another/others.

These are somewhat inevitable and expected. Some racist people will treat the nearest Jewish person they find according to the actions of Israel? Of course. Morons exist. That people will split into groups and fight amongst each other? Of course. Morons exist.

What is the point you'd like to draw?

 

[Joey D]

What is that, if not evidence of the claim that "There has been a persistent inability and unwillingness to distinguish between Jews and the actions of Israel."? I.e. that people are holding members of a group accountable for things happening thousands of miles away perpetrated by a group that they may have no association with (also, those London Muslim/Islam stats were from before the Southport riots).

There's also the inability for Jews to let other Jews have any opinion on Israel other than "Israel is right and the Middle East is wrong." I've mentioned this several times, but my wife has been ostracized from a large part of her family because she thinks Israel is a genocidal state and that Netanyahu is a criminal (it's made Thanksgiving cheaper for me, so that's a plus).

So, I think the reason people don't distinguish Jews from Israel is due to the fact that Jews won't let themselves be distinguished. If they attempt to distance themselves from Israel, they're called a bad Jew or ostracized from their families.

 

[HenrySwanson]

One ("There has been a persistent inability and unwillingness to distinguish between Jews and the actions of Israel.") is a blanket catch-all for any and all criticism of Israel, it's not nuanced, it's not quantified, it's not contextualised. It's a very, very different thing.

Look at the language used to describe the two sides in that article, not just of the day, but of the conflict itself, if you can't see the clear difference then I don't think you are even close to looking at it objectively or critically. The way you introduced the article into the thread here is clear enough evidence of that, zero critical consideration of the piece and a focus on one-side as being responsible.

It is NOT one bloody side, but you are continuously refusing to apportion the appropriate amount of blame to a religion that was dreamt up by a war-mongering, slave-owning nonce and the undeniable fact that humans are, and always will be tribal.

How do you explain the fact of the record increases in antisemitic incidents following Oct 7 apart from:

There has been a persistent inability and unwillingness to distinguish between Jews and the actions of Israel.

The Times is biased (centre-right, large Jewish readership)....but so are the Guardian, and New Statesman, and Daily Mail, and the Mirror. Should we only use the AP as a source?

Whatoutism doesn't help this at all, it's a distraction you are attempting to use in place of a reasoned position.

This is not whataboutism.

Why do you think Israel's crimes have been singled out, and why at this moment?

Do you believe there's a difference in final aims between Israel's funding of Hamas and Israel's approach to the situation? They seem rather effectively aligned to me.

They are perfectly aligned.

I countered your claim that it was the only thing that led to Hamas being in their strong position in Gaza. They are just another part of the axis of resistance (although not as obviously as the likes of Hezbollah.)

Perhaps it would help to explain the point you want to make. I'm sure that the point is not record amounts of antisemitism. The only thing you offered that approached that kind of point was this:


These are somewhat inevitable and expected. Some racist people will treat the nearest Jewish person they find according to the actions of Israel? Of course. Morons exist. That people will split into groups and fight amongst each other? Of course. Morons exist.

What is the point you'd like to draw?

This was all in response to:

This part is the most relevant:

But the response to this agonising situation in some quarters has also been revealing. There has been a persistent inability and unwillingness to distinguish between Jews and the actions of Israel.

This is simply untrue, and pretty much parrots the Israeli state line that labels any, and all criticism of Israel and its actions as antisemitic. It's relevant, but not, I suspect for the reason you believe, it's relevant as its an example of propaganda, or Hasbara as it's policy name goes by.

Breaking it down further, we've imported the politics of the Middle East (among other tribal things) and don't have a clue on how to deal with it. See also the Montreal riots.

There's also the inability for Jews to let other Jews have any opinion on Israel other than "Israel is right and the Middle East is wrong." I've mentioned this several times, but my wife has been ostracized from a large part of her family because she thinks Israel is a genocidal state and that Netanyahu is a criminal (it's made Thanksgiving cheaper for me, so that's a plus).

So, I think the reason people don't distinguish Jews from Israel is due to the fact that Jews won't let themselves be distinguished. If they attempt to distance themselves from Israel, they're called a bad Jew or ostracized from their families.

Very true that it is also due to that. The film Israelism shows how pernicious an influence Israeli propaganda is in the US.

But that is one cause - it's not the sole cause, and....again....it puts all the blame on "the Jews".