Kaz interview on Eurogamer - Standards are here to stay! Poll added

[Gerarghini]

IMO, he's a spamming troll who only intends to stir the pot. It is pretty obvious what his intent is.

Well, there's no need for that. @SimTourist made some very good points that were necessary once this thread turned into a GT vs. FM.

Either way I've made vote, not going to tolerate GT's 🤬 any longer.

 

[TokoTurismo]

@NixxxoN If you don't like "detailed stuff", than why not go back to the PS1 era? Simple.

 

[NixxxoN]

I didn't bought a 400$ console in 2013 to play 8bit games. Your comparison is ridiculous.

I mean you guys would appreciate less graphics and more the gameplay if you were born in that era. A 16-bit console (SNES) cost something like 200€ ($250) in those years which was A LOT.

I used to be like you

And then you got the illness?

@NixxxoN If you don't like "detailed stuff", than why not go back to the PS1 era? Simple.

Why dont you abadon consoles and go to play PC? PC are supposedly the best option for those hardcore graphics fans (with their $1000 graphics cards), and consoles are supposed to prefer good gamemplay at a reasonable price even if they have less graphics.

 

[Spitfiredwod]

I Think standards should be improved, not removed, if all of the standards were removed we would lose a ton of awesome cars, like the Supra, CRX SiR, The Nismo cars, SRT4, Cuda 6 Pack ECT.

Yes i agree, the standards are a bit depressing, but i don't see why so many people need to flip out over some pixels.

Graphics do not make the game.

 

[TokoTurismo]

And then you got the illness?

Illness of what? He no blind.

 

[SCER]

And then you got the illness?

Nah, at some point I acknowledged that, as one of the biggest gaming franchises of all time, the Gran Turismo series was strong enough to be analysed from a technical perspective, rather than a purely emotional one. I'm willing to analyse it from a technical perspective because I believe it's a big enough and popular enough series to be able to stand on it's own two feet, which for the most part it does.

 

[Eks]

Nitpicking?
Material rendering, textures and so on has to be on another level, if they want to use those cars. PD has to do some work in my opinion and can not copy and paste those ps3 premium cars. This could mean, that they'll not touch the standard cars like a few people believe.

I feel like that's exactly what they'll do. GT7 will have Standards, Premiums, and..Super Premiums?

Then there's the positive side of me which thinks that what PD has actually modeled looks better, but is toned down for the PS3, so who knows. Maybe they're indeed "next-gen ready," we're just not seeing it.

 

[NixxxoN]

Illness of what? He no blind.

In spain we call it "grafiquitis" I dont know how it translates into english. It's basically the "must have perfect graphics otherwise its not good" or "a game is as good as its graphics" stuff wich is complete bull ****.

Nah, at some point I acknowledged that, as one of the biggest gaming franchises of all time, the Gran Turismo series was strong enough to be analysed from a technical perspective, rather than a purely emotional one. I'm willing to analyse it from a technical perspective because I believe it's a big enough and popular enough series to be able to stand on it's own two feet, which for the most part it does.

GT has to forget about having the best graphics ever since its on console and PC will always have more capabilities. They have to focus on offering the best balance of quality and content, the best balance between user friendly physics and hardcore sim physics.

 

[SCER]

In spain we call it "grafiquitis" I dont know how it translates into english. It's basically the "must have perfect graphics otherwise its not good" or "a game is as good as its graphics" stuff wich is complete bull ****.

Hmm...

"must have perfect graphics otherwise its not good" or "a game is as good as its graphics"

Except I love the Gran Turismo series and I love Gran Turismo 6.

 

[TokoTurismo]

In spain we call it "grafiquitis" I dont know how it translates into english. It's basically the "must have perfect graphics otherwise its not good" or "a game is as good as its graphics" stuff wich is complete bull ****.

Did anyone say they wanted GT7 to have perfect graphics though? I'm pretty sure not.

 

[NixxxoN]

Hmm...

"must have perfect graphics otherwise its not good" or "a game is as good as its graphics"

Except I love the Gran Turismo series and I love Gran Turismo 6.

yet you seem to bash its graphics for not being good enough.

Did anyone say they wanted GT7 to have perfect graphics though? I'm pretty sure not.

Yes, all of you who are talking with me here right now, seem to want more and more and more detailed graphics.

 

[SCER]

yet you seem to bash its graphics for not being good enough.

You have me mistaken, I praise the very high quality of some of the graphics but acknowledge that they're not all of PS4 standard. Seriously, the close-up images of cars with adaptive tesselation had my jaw on the floor, but only those cars are of PS4 standard.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

I feel like that's exactly what they'll do. GT7 will have Standards, Premiums, and..Super Premiums?

Then there's the positive side of me which thinks that what PD has actually modeled looks better, but is toned down for the PS3, so who knows. Maybe they're indeed "next-gen ready," we're just not seeing it.

GT5/6 photomode car models are beyond anything PS4 could do in gameplay. You would need a quite beefy GPU to run 16 car races on the Nordschleife with those models.

 

[TokoTurismo]

Yes, all of you who are talking with me here right now, seem to want more and more and more detailed graphics.

I'm pretty sure many only wants GT7's quality to be consistent. Like say, all cars and tracks to be equal in quality, not graphics.

 

[SCER]

Then there's the positive side of me which thinks that what PD has actually modeled looks better, but is toned down for the PS3, so who knows. Maybe they're indeed "next-gen ready," we're just not seeing it.

Take a look at this, particularly this post.

IMO that's PS4 quality.

 

[Eks]

GT5/6 photomode car models are beyond anything PS4 could do in gameplay. You would need a quite beefy GPU to run 16 car races on the Nordschleife with those models.

I don't think all 16 cars would be of that quality anyway. I imagine PD would use some LOD scaling to make other cars have less detail/polygons than the player's car, especially when further away. (Do they not already do that, though?)

Take a look at this, particularly this post.

IMO those are of PS4 quality.

I agree. Those look fantastic. 👍

 

[H1s6n]

It"s a Kazunori Game ,,, so i'll buy it of cause

 

[MeanElf]

Take a look at this, particularly this post.

IMO that's PS4 quality.

That was my impression from reading things Kazunori-san said when talking about polygons and car models - that the PS3 was hampering the level of detail for most cars.

The team have clearly found ways around this in some cases, including tesselation - I don't think it's all down to that though, as some are still very much kept at the basic model level, probably to allow the polygon count to be higher for other cars.

 

[MatskiMonk]

It is more than enough as long it has good variety. Majority of people do not use more than 50cars I am sure. Hence I do not understand the logic of having standard cars. I will not be surprised if there are no standard cars. They are just considering it nothing more

You may not use more than 50 cars, I may not use more than 50 cars, but between the two of us I doubt we regularly use the same 25 cars. And that is the point of variety, I could handle it if GT was only 50 cars, so long as everyone of them was a car I wanted... the rest of you be damned! But I'm not that small minded really, I know we need a big car list to give every individual variety, not just the collective group.

Also, the car list has always been a GT USP.. it is part of the franchise, to loose it now, with so many interesting cars still standards, it just wouldn't be GT any more.

Standards do look terrible, but the alternative isn't more premiums, it's the same number of premiums as we'll get anyway... with less of other cars, like the Supra, the E46 M3, and many, many many others. This isn't a perfect world, and standards won;t make me defect to another game. pCars car list is pretty poor as far as I'm concerned. The Grp 5 320 turbo is a good addition, but that's it ---- certainly not enough for me to invest in a new console.

 

[Quakebass]

you must be kidding. GT5/6 premiums are PS4 quality, I doubt they will change them... PS4 standards are going to be much probably the RUF-like semi-premiums of GT6.

I'd disagree, example being in a few posts above your reply - the polygons still stick out comparatively to that of next-gen stuff. And that's with tessellation. Without it the cars look even worse. I'd be ok with that level of detail on standards in GT7, and that of the well-done upgrades, like the RUFs. But everything would need to have interiors, and nothing should have weird jagged edges or pixelated textures. This is a AAA first party title in 2015/2016, not an Indy beta.

 

[Grand Prix]

So...

When can we expect "Sub-Standard" cars from GT2 to come back?

 

[MatskiMonk]

I'd disagree, example being in a few posts above your reply - the polygons still stick out comparatively to that of next-gen stuff. And that's with tessellation. Without it the cars look even worse. I'd be ok with that level of detail on standards in GT7, and that of the well-done upgrades, like the RUFs. But everything would need to have interiors, and nothing should have weird jagged edges or pixelated textures. This is a AAA first party title in 2015/2016, not an Indy beta.

No that example handily seems to have been posted without tessilation.. there's a thread somewhere on it, it's almost night and day with and without.

 

[NixxxoN]

I'd disagree, example being in a few posts above your reply - the polygons still stick out comparatively to that of next-gen stuff. And that's with tessellation. Without it the cars look even worse. I'd be ok with that level of detail on standards in GT7, and that of the well-done upgrades, like the RUFs. But everything would need to have interiors, and nothing should have weird jagged edges or pixelated textures. This is a AAA first party title in 2015/2016, not an Indy beta.

... wtf man... thats very zoomed in. If you keep on zooming in on 3D game stuff you'll eventually see pixeled textures and squared polygons... its ridiculous

 

[Tornado]

But some people were complaining about the lack of content in Forza 5, so apparently outsourcing doesn't provide that much of a help.

That's an apples and oranges comparison. Turn 10 dumping all of their art assets was controversial for reasoning that amounted to a lot more than "there's less cars". With Forza 5, they even dumped some of the cars that they had put together for Autovista for Forza 4. They even dumped cars they made as DLC for Forza Horizon despite that game being in development at the same time as Forza 5; and whose post-development content had several examples of them them charging for DLC cars that were already in Forza 4 (some of which as DLC) under the guise of those cars being improved for Horizon.
That's all ignoring the elephant in the room that even the worst looking Forza 4 model (and there were a couple real stinkers) is technically more advanced (even if comparably inaccurate) than the GT5 Standard equivalents. Or that those assets would be at minimum 10 years and two generations old (with modeling practices that were already dated when GT4 was new) when GT7 releases compared to some of Forza's dropped assets which were... 6 months old.



Put another way, outsourcing not being up to task wasn't the issue with Forza 5. The sketchy business practices from Forza Horizon seemingly being carried with a vengeance into Forza 5 was.

OMG... I know they're still ps2 assets...
The thing that maybe you dont get is there are many levels of quality being mixed here, just in case I do a list:

1) PS2 in game quality (lowest)
2) PS2 gallery quality (low-medium) - same as PS3 standard in-game quality
3) PS3 premium in game quality (medium-high)
4) PS3 premium gallery view quality (highest)

I've compared ps2 cars with ps3 standard cars, i can tell you that in game the ps2 ones look clearly worse.

You know, in addition to being quite involved in GT4 Photomode competitions (just like Slip) and in addition to spending quite a lot of time dual-playing GT5 and GT4 when the former first came out (just like Slip), I also did quite a lot of specific car to car comparisons when the early gltiches regarding things like the Alto Works first became evident and the changes in liveries between the two games. First off, the Photo Travel models were not the highest quality ones. The garage view/dealership models were, and I haven't seen any of them since GT4.
Going along from that, often times the differences in quality between the best models and the race models amounted to having 3D wheels on the former and nothing else. The main cars that had the dramatic model quality differences were convertibles, and PD didn't use any of the higher quality models for those in GT5 or GT6. And, as it pertains to GT5 specifically (but GT6 by association), quite a few cars looked worse than they did in GT4. Not better. The infamous Alto Works, which was eventually fixed. The Subaru Legacy, DeLorean and Hyundai HCD-6, which were not (and still weren't as of GT6, despite all of the hooplah about tesselation). All of the cars (except maybe the Stratos) where they modified the liveries, crudely editing out words with smudges, barcodes or random shapes. Any car that had animated body parts in GT3 and GT4 which were never fixed.




So perhaps there were cars that were notably better looking in GT5. But there were also quite a few cars that looked much worse, higher resolution, better lighting engine and supposedly more advanced model or not. So in fact it goes more like this:

1. Glitched or poorly modified Standard cars - Worse than the assets as they appeared on PS2
2. PS2 in game quality - As they appeared on the PS2, obviously
3. PS2 gallery quality - same as PS3 standard in-game quality except when #1 is in effect or when PD didn't use the Photo Travel models.
4. PS2 dealership quality - better than PS3 Standard quality. The new-for-GTPSP cars would probably go here.
5. Slightly touched up Standard cars. Stuff like the 1999 Celica would go here.
6. PS3 semi-Premium quality. Stuff like the RUF models would go here (this also includes at least one one car labeled as a bona fide Premium, so it isn't as if the PS3 Premiums are all to one quality standard either)
7. PS3 Premium in game quality
8. PS3 Premium gallery view quality

The gap between 1 and 2 is huge. The gap between 5 and 6 is huge. The gap between 6 and 7 is large as well. There are even major gaps within 7. The gap between 2 and 3 is not, to the extent that it is usually imperceptible.

 

[MatskiMonk]

... wtf man... thats very zoomed in. If you keep on zooming in on 3D game stuff you'll eventually see pixeled textures and squared polygons... its ridiculous

It's BS Troll Flame bait, this thread https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/tessellation-car-list.307532/#post-9591024 shows what GT can do with Active Tessilation on a "last gen" platform.

 

[Imari]

Graphics do not make the game.

Neither do numbers.

pCars car list is pretty poor as far as I'm concerned. The Grp 5 320 turbo is a good addition, but that's it ---- certainly not enough for me to invest in a new console.

But you don't have to invest in a new console.

If you're a racing fan, you're going to buy either an X1 or a PS4 for either Forza or GT eventually, depending on your tastes. And if you're enough of a racing fan to do that, you'll almost certainly pick up pCARS as well, because why wouldn't you? It's not like Forza and GT where they're mutually exclusive (to the point of having to buy two consoles anyway). Whichever console you have, or PC, you can play pCARS.

 

[NightHawkFur]

And if the PC release of Project Cars will be mod-able, you can get pretty much all the cars you want after some time.

 

[Brend]

Gran Turismo's problem is not the core graphics but the all round feel and 'art style' of the game. The inconsistency that leaks everywhere in new GT games these days mean there is very contained beauty that for the most part isn't even noticed. It's all fair and well if GT6 done 1080p and '60FPS' but when it's so choppy and combined with the other massive problems the car/track roster has it just makes a very sterile, bland and sloppy experience. You do not need the latest graphics chip to make the best looking game possible, you just need to know the limits and use what the console has to offer to your advantage. Not putting some incredible stuff in because you can, at the expense of standardizing(no pun intended) the rest of the game.

Grid:Autosport, pCARS, Forza Motorsport, Forza Horizon and Driveclub create it's atmosphere with the way the developers made the game as equally as possible. It may (arguably) never look as spectacular as a premium track and premium car on GT6 but you have to ask yourself...is it worth the collateral damage?

Just look at a game on the other end of the spectrum, Mario Kart 8, hailed by many critics as the 'best looking game' on next-gen consoles right now. Not because it's mind blowing, it lacks AA, but because the art style is pulled off within the confines of a 60FPS, 1080p environment and it just looks...engrossing.

PD seem to have their priorities totally mixed up. It just seems half-arsed.

 

[Quakebass]

No that example handily seems to have been posted without tessilation.. there's a thread somewhere on it, it's almost night and day with and without.

Either way, I'm fine with the PS4 standards looking like that or like a well-upgraded PS3 standard +a half-decent interior.

... wtf man... thats very zoomed in. If you keep on zooming in on 3D game stuff you'll eventually see pixeled textures and squared polygons... its ridiculous

Did you not read the part where I said I'm completely ok with that level of detail for PS4 standard cars...?

Defend these: (Credit to those who took these images)




The Nissan Option Stream Z is another great example, but I couldn't find good images. This level of detail is unacceptable even on PS3.

 

[ProjectWHaT]

The Nissan Option Stream Z is another great example, but I couldn't find good images. This level of detail is unacceptable even on PS3.

well that car's burnt to a crisp so you can't really remodel it...