New Gran Turismo 7 Video Details PS5 Improvements, Reveals New Cars & Teases Daytona Road Course
- Thread starter Famine
- 261 comments
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He did mention the adaptive trigger based feature as if that's more realistic, but I think he said that without giving it much thought. IMO, the adaptive trigger based feature probably wouldn't add any realism to the game, and it would only serve as a gameplay helper, just like the impulse trigger (it helps you to feel the limit).
If the goal is mimicking the behavior of real life brake pedal, then a lot of what he said sounds somewhat weird. First off, when you're driving a road car, you usually don't feel the tire lock from your brake pedal, since full tire lock almost never happens in the first place, due to the ABS (which most road cars have by default and there is usually no way to disable the ABS other than taking out the ABS fuse from the box). Instead, you feel ABS motor modulation in real life car, but he never said anything about ABS modulation.
Also, in the event of full lock (which is typically only possible after removing the ABS fuse), you don't experience the sudden loss of pressure on the brake pedal at the moment of tire lock (at least the feeling is definitely not as severe as brake fade). If that's your first full lock, you typically just feel the aftermath. After a good full lock braking, your tire would be no longer perfectly circular (i.e. dead), hence it makes vibration and noise pretty violently.
The sudden loss of pressure is typically a symptom of brake fade, and this is fairly common phenomenon, since most cars start to exhibit some pad fade after 1-3 laps with stock pads. But Gran Turismo series have never implemented any sort of brake pad/fluid temp related simulation, and I highly doubt they started doing it now.
- 50,888
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
Well, the video were mainly race cars. Some do have ABS. Some don’t have ABS. How much brake pressure will it take to lock the brakes while driving the Mercedes ‘29? How much braking pressure will it take to lock up in a Gr.3 car at Daytona?
Puffs of smoke from the tyres can be seen in the video. From braking, loss of traction? I couldn’t tell.
Anyway, he’s mentioned braking feel with the controller before. I think he also mentioned about road feel or off-road track feel. Yet, again, he mentions visuals, as he did in the first Starting Line clip.
In the seven clips prior, he’s not mentioned much about driver feel. Even when speaking briefly about tuning and tracks. Nothing about the player may feel the different patches of road surfaces or the grip meter on wet surfaces.
Sure, its possible he may speak on driver interaction in a future video. However, being the Driving Simulator, he should be leading with that. Explaining how Gran Turismo 7 will eclipse all the previous games in terms of driving feel. Not just features that hark back to the classic games.
Puffs of smoke from the tyres can be seen in the video. From braking, loss of traction? I couldn’t tell.
Anyway, he’s mentioned braking feel with the controller before. I think he also mentioned about road feel or off-road track feel. Yet, again, he mentions visuals, as he did in the first Starting Line clip.
In the seven clips prior, he’s not mentioned much about driver feel. Even when speaking briefly about tuning and tracks. Nothing about the player may feel the different patches of road surfaces or the grip meter on wet surfaces.
Sure, its possible he may speak on driver interaction in a future video. However, being the Driving Simulator, he should be leading with that. Explaining how Gran Turismo 7 will eclipse all the previous games in terms of driving feel. Not just features that hark back to the classic games.
- 17
- eternalspring
- 571
- Italy
Exactly that's also my impression.The cars look way more bouncy to me. Like there is way more visual work going on with the suspension model. The lighting seems to be miles beyond what Sport was produced. Which was amazing in its own right, but the lighting in 7
For example here the Lambo seems a lot more bouncy whereas on GTS suspensions wouldn't make barely any movement especially n a very flat track like Tokyo Expressway,they seems way more sensitive now
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- 234
- Ireland
Wreckfest has this kind of thing in the PS5 update and it works well, so I think fair play. I think any attempt on adding 'realism' in terms of communicating what the car is doing needs a big asterisk next to it, as you can't get a lot of it when you don't have motion. FFB for example isn't really what a wheel feels like in most cars, but it isn't trying to do that -- it's trying to communicate forces that the entire body would feel in real life.
- 13,865
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Yeah, I thought him saying that it goes soft was a weird choice. I'd have thought if anything you'd make it get harder to push - technically if you've locked the brakes there's no more pad travel and so any leverage is just going to be going into the brake lines. It'd be a bit gamey, but it could maybe help people feel the edge if the trigger was getting stiffer as they pushed and a little help like that for controller users who already have to deal with very short travel seems fine.
But really it'd probably just be good to make the trigger pulse like the Xbox adaptive triggers do. It works fine, you get to feel when you've gone too far and back off which is pretty much how a real car works. They could have different vibrations depending on whether it was ABS or just the tyre locked solid and skidding which would play into the advantages of Playstation's haptics.
No matter how I look at it, I can't see having the trigger go soft as sensible.
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I don't think it matters because you really don't get huge feedback on the pedal at the moment of tire locks (it's very weak compare to fluid fade or ABS modulation). The reaction you feel from the brake pedal is coming from the pressure change of brake fluid inside the brake line. Not every bit of the pressure change is transferred to the pedal, as master cylinder and booster are located in between fluid and pedal and they kinda mute some of it, but some of those changes is transferred to the pedal.
Initially, both pistons and pads can actually move a bit before making a contact with rotors, so you got very little reaction from your pedal as the pressure barely go up at that point. But almost as soon as brake pads make a full contact with rotors, they have nowhere else to go (whether the tire is locked or not), since they're practically a rigid body compare to brake fluid and line, and the pressure starts to build up inside the brake line. As a result, the pedal starts to exhibit gradually increased resistance, due to the gradual pressure build up inside the brake line, which not only pushes the piston harder but also push back the pedal harder to some degree. If you push the pedal even further, then the pedal would completely stop moving and exhibit sudden extreme rigidity, because there is usually some object which physically forbid any further travel of the brake pedal.
ABS modulator makes significant pressure swing at very short interval, so it is very noticeable on the pedal side. It won't last long but at the moment of operation, you feel 5-10Hz pulse/vibration on the pedal. Brake fluid fade changes the pressure characteristic altogether, and gives you very soft/mush/sponge-like pedal feeling, as the gas bubble is a lot more compressible than the brake fluid. This feeling is not only very noticeable but also last pretty long time (usually a few minutes but it could even last forever until the fluid change or bleeding).
On the contrary, tire lock barely generates one small ripple of pressure swing (at the moment of locking) on the pedal side, which is a lot weaker and shorter than ABS or fade induced feeling. Tire lock is much more noticeable on the steering side, and the dead giveaway is usually the sound. Going soft on triggers? That should happens in the event of fluid fade, not tire lock.
The required force on the brake pedal to make certain level of biting force (e.g. enough to lock up the tire) is whole another story. It's mostly determined by the area of pistons, master cylinder bore area, desired travel distances, and the performance of brake booster. In other words, you can make the pedal as light/heavy as you want if you're willing to swap some parts, and the required force on your pedal has almost no inherent correlation to biting force or braking performance.
The most significant part is the booster. Old cars often don't have one so they're generally on the heavier side, but not extremely heavy as they're designed to operate without one. Newer cars with a broken booster typically require an extreme level of pedal force, so in the event of sudden booster malfunctions, people often mistakenly believe their brake is completely gone, although it actually works even without booster. It just need huge force (you almost need to transfer your body weight to the pedal) to make adequate stopping force. You can try this on your car (turn off the engine on the safe downhill, clear out the existing vacuum by pressing the brake pedal a few times, let the car roll, and brake).
Anyway, these kind of things have never been implemented on Gran Turismo series, and I don't think they'll start doing it now. I think they would come up with a feature similar to the impulse trigger which helps you to find out where the limit is, and principally different to the real life brake pedal (just like 6 axis motion simulator feels completely different from real track driving).
LeGeNd-1
Premium
- 7,264
- Australia
- GTP_LeGeNd-1
Kaz already mentioned in the "Racer" behind the scenes video that understeer rattle effect is coming back for wheels. Now we get brake pedals going soft upon locking? Makes you wonder if they've ever driven cars on the limit to be honest...
Meanwhile, people are using footage of cars slightly bouncing as proof that physics are improved. Yeah, you are just going to get disappointed.
Meanwhile, people are using footage of cars slightly bouncing as proof that physics are improved. Yeah, you are just going to get disappointed.
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- 1,925
- United States
Well the lighting is all real time now and not baked so of course it's going to be a massive improvement. I honestly can't believe they thought baked lighting was the way to go with Gtsport. Terrible idea.The cars look way more bouncy to me. Like there is way more visual work going on with the suspension model. The lighting seems to be miles beyond what Sport was produced. Which was amazing in its own right, but the lighting in 7
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- 1,748
- vspectra06
- vspectra06
You can blend the baked data with a light probe system. Using pre-baked data will always be cheaper than something fully real-time like ray-trace GI or Sparse voxel octree GI.
Guerrilla blended their baked lighting in Horizon Zero Dawn: "For our indirect lighting solution, we used irradiance volumes... We baked the indirect lighting of our sunlight at 4 times of our day/night cycle, to 4 different sets of irradiance volume textures, which we then blended overtime to give the illusion of having accurate indirect lighting across all times of the day.
...The reason we chose to once again use a prebaked solution instead of a fully real-time solution is simple: the quality is higher, and the memory cost and runtime performance cost is really low compared to a fully real-time solution. We have the opportunity to stack multiple irradiance volumes as well, giving us higher fidelity and resolution. "
Irradiance volume light probes example:
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- 444
- Sweden
Why bother so much about what the sensation is for a specific event in the game? What's import for me is that it's intuitive and helps me to drive and compete better.
If you want to learn skills that translate to real life, you'll need to adapt when switching from games to real life vehicles anyway. The basic principles are the same, but the sensations are different, hence the need for some adaptation. Switching between a real life motorcycle and car has different sensations, even though brake/throttle and steering control is the same (motorcycles are a lot more advanced since you manipulate the center of gravity as well). Even switching between different real life cars forces you to adapt to the difference in sensations.
Both real life motorcycle driving as well as GT Sport has made me a safer and faster real life car driver.
If GT7 isn't worse than GT Sport, I'm super happy. It's an excellent, immersive, intuitive, competitive racing game as is. I couldn't care less for more ******** realism as in ACC, where I have to fiddle with crap I'm not interested in.
If you want to learn skills that translate to real life, you'll need to adapt when switching from games to real life vehicles anyway. The basic principles are the same, but the sensations are different, hence the need for some adaptation. Switching between a real life motorcycle and car has different sensations, even though brake/throttle and steering control is the same (motorcycles are a lot more advanced since you manipulate the center of gravity as well). Even switching between different real life cars forces you to adapt to the difference in sensations.
Both real life motorcycle driving as well as GT Sport has made me a safer and faster real life car driver.
If GT7 isn't worse than GT Sport, I'm super happy. It's an excellent, immersive, intuitive, competitive racing game as is. I couldn't care less for more ******** realism as in ACC, where I have to fiddle with crap I'm not interested in.
- 50,888
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
Just realised, nothing new about the braking. https://www.gtplanet.net/gt7-dualsense-feel-abs-20200821/
Maybe Kaz is speaking I n relation to players that play with ABS turned off and maybe cars that aren’t equipped with ABS from the factory.
Maybe Kaz is speaking I n relation to players that play with ABS turned off and maybe cars that aren’t equipped with ABS from the factory.
- 50,888
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
The first time he talks about ABS specifically in the article I reposted. This one, he’s speaking on locking up. There will be a host of cars without ABS. Even though we can select ABS on/off, the feel is going to be different.
You say you played hours of GTS. Then, you know how the brakes feel with ABS default and ABS off. Instant lock up for a beginner, if they have ABS off. It’s not going to feel the same as ABS default. Let’s be real here.
If PD have indeed improved brake feel through controllers, for PS5 players, slamming on brakes is going to feel different, either side of the coin.
Someone mentioned brake fade. That could be simulated by pad wear, warped rotors and hot brake fluid all those combined. We’re not going to experience this is a GT game. However, getting that long pedal, is probably the most we’ll get. I think a tap of the brakes to build brake pressure, could be simulated. Where, playing the older games, poor man’s ABS techniques were often used.
You say you played hours of GTS. Then, you know how the brakes feel with ABS default and ABS off. Instant lock up for a beginner, if they have ABS off. It’s not going to feel the same as ABS default. Let’s be real here.
If PD have indeed improved brake feel through controllers, for PS5 players, slamming on brakes is going to feel different, either side of the coin.
Someone mentioned brake fade. That could be simulated by pad wear, warped rotors and hot brake fluid all those combined. We’re not going to experience this is a GT game. However, getting that long pedal, is probably the most we’ll get. I think a tap of the brakes to build brake pressure, could be simulated. Where, playing the older games, poor man’s ABS techniques were often used.
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