2014 Rolex Australian Grand Prix

[Papasmurfette]

I think it probably depends a lot on the context of the rule breech. You could gain a serious advantage by dialing the consumption up a few notches above the legal amount if, for example, a competitor was approaching you quickly from behind near the end of the race and your average fuel consumption has been say 80%. I really don't know the specific technicalities of the rule but there is probably a certain amount of time you cannot run it in breech for and perhaps a certain threshold over the limit that will get you in trouble.

Just saying that it is possible the team dialed the engine up to fend off Kev and pushed it too far perhaps even accidentally as they don't have enough experience running the Renault engines at full whack yet.

 

[pyrates]

It doesn't really matter if it was done on purpose or due to a technical issue. If the rule is broken either way you have to face the consequences. You could ask the question whether that rule makes sense but as it is now it has to be enforced. Didn't Magnussen go into a fuel saving mode about 3-4 laps before then end when Riccardo could pull away? That would quite clearly show an advantage that he gained through illegal fuel flow. It would be shame for Riccardo, though.

 

[Sum1s2pid]

Shame for Ricciardo... kind of wanted him to do well.

Button third?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

It doesn't really matter if it was done on purpose or due to a technical issue. If the rule is broken either way you have to face the consequences. You could ask the question whether that rule makes sense but as it is now it has to be enforced. Didn't Magnussen go into a fuel saving mode about 3-4 laps before then end when Riccardo could pull away? That would quite clearly show an advantage that he gained through illegal fuel flow. It would be shame for Riccardo, though.

If it broke due to technical reasons beyond RBR then no they wont get punished. Refer to Kobiyashi/Massa incident for example.

 

[pyrates]

If it broke due to technical reasons beyond RBR then no they wont get punished. Refer to Kobiyashi/Massa incident for example.

Yeak, ok. That might be the case.

 

[Dodzzz]

If it broke due to technical reasons beyond RBR then no they wont get punished. Refer to Kobiyashi/Massa incident for example.

But Kobayashi did not get any advantage over that.. while Ricciardo did, so he still must be penalized.

 

[Papasmurfette]

If it broke due to technical reasons beyond RBR then no they wont get punished. Refer to Kobiyashi/Massa incident for example.

In this case they would have to be able to prove to the stewards that they were completely unaware of the issue the entire time it was happening and considering how closely they would have been monitoring that engine under the circumstances I don't see how they would be able to do that.

 

[Bo]

It looks as though Red Bull swapped out the FIA flow meter with their own.

 

[pyrates]

So apparently the stewards just asked to see RBR. There is no disqualification yet.

https://twitter.com/JennieGow/status/445143265117863937

#F1 To clarify situation: FIA stewards have asked to see RIC & RBR - there is no official news as to the outcome of this ‘fuel flow issue'

 

[Bo]

Horner has just walked out of the meeting.

 

[Tired Tyres]

In a huff?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

In this case they would have to be able to prove to the stewards that they were completely unaware of the issue the entire time it was happening and considering how closely they would have been monitoring that engine under the circumstances I don't see how they would be able to do that.

Exactly, I never said they were going to be able to do this. I just clarified that rules aren't all or nothing, if it can be proven then no penalty will be given and the reference made is a case in point. That is all, also the FIA in real time has the ability themselves to analyze the data (hence how they gleamed the "consistently" bit) yet they waited because of it perhaps being a tech issue beyond RBRs control.

But Kobayashi did not get any advantage over that.. while Ricciardo did, so he still must be penalized.

No he must not, because of the nature of technical gremlins that are beyond the control of teams you can't fault them. However, if they indeed changed out the mandated flow regulator for their own they should get the punishment, and DR should be cursing at them for doing such a stupid act.

 

[Papasmurfette]

Exactly, I never said they were going to be able to do this. I just clarified that rules are all or nothing, if it can be proven then no penalty will be given and the reference made is a case in point. That is all

I'm not disagreeing with you, to be honest I am still coming to my own opinion about it, but it seems unlikely that this wasn't a deliberate move by RBR. Even if it was some kind of error they should have been able to detect it and dial back the engine to compensate. If there was uncertainty that it could be a problem with the sensor then they should have called it in immediately. We don't know enough yet to say if either of these things happened yet.

It obviously isn't a cut-and-dry case else we would know the outcome by now so who knows what factors are involved.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I'm not disagreeing with you, to be honest I am still coming to my own opinion about it, but it seems unlikely that this wasn't a deliberate move by RBR. Even if it was some kind of error they should have been able to detect it and dial back the engine to compensate. If there was uncertainty that it could be a problem with the sensor then they should have called it in immediately. We don't know enough yet to say if either of these things happened yet.

It obviously isn't a cut-and-dry case else we would know the outcome by now so who knows what factors are involved.

The problem is we don't have that data only the FIA tech analyst and RBR do which was downloaded post-race due to faulty systems this weekend for everyone. So that data gives a clear cut understanding of went on, they very well could have dialed it down at different portions of the stint, while other portions were above the rate. However, how they are going to explain it being broken is beyond me and I doubt they can at this point. We don't know what the stuff looks like and that is my point really, the articles have next to no info and the "consistently" is all we have.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'm impressed by Kiffy Hat, as the Australian commentators call him (note: it's "kiv-YAHT"). For a while there, he looked like he could have taken Räikkönen, who just did not look comfortable - he couldn't do consistent sector times, much less lap times.

 

[fastboysmith]

I'm impressed by Kiffy Hat, as the Australian commentators call him (note: it's "kiv-YAHT"). For a while there, he looked like he could have taken Räikkönen, who just did not look comfortable - he couldn't do consistent sector times, much less lap times.

Thank god someone explained that to me I thought they where saying fiat

 

[SilverArrow]

It's K'fiat.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

 

[Ninners]

I pronounce it Kvy-at.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

If it broke due to technical reasons beyond RBR then no they wont get punished.

It shouldn't be beyond their ability to control. The teams have to homologate their throttle maps, and those maps are written off a formula given by the FIA. In theory, the cars should not be able to exceed the limit on their own, even when the driver manually overrode the ERS to get additional power, because the maps are supposed to recognise when the ERS is being used, and compensate. If there is a problem, it is in the map itself - which is a problem for Red Bull and Toro Rosso, because those maps were touted as the solution to their development problems. It sounds to me like someone has written a map to fix the problem, but hasn't accounted for the fuel feed formula.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

It shouldn't be beyond their ability to control. The teams have to homologate their throttle maps, and those maps are written off a formula given by the FIA. In theory, the cars should not be able to exceed the limit on their own, even when the driver manually overrode the ERS to get additional power, because the maps are supposed to recognise when the ERS is being used, and compensate. If there is a problem, it is in the map itself - which is a problem for Red Bull and Toro Rosso, because those maps were touted as the solution to their development problems. It sounds to me like someone has written a map to fix the problem, but hasn't accounted for the fuel feed formula.

Yeah it's probably the case, and the fact they were frantic to fix this issue could have just shot them in the foot. However, as it still stands and as I stressed that I don't believe is possible as well, if some how the map (which SV had problems with this weekend) broke down and fed more to the system and RBR were getting different fuel flow numbers or some other weird act that was beyond the team a punishment wont be given. Yet I dont see how that is at all possible

 

[niky]

Would've thought the fuel pump regulator itself would represent a hard limit on fuel flow, whatever the map. Or is flow regulation done entirely via the engine map?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Yeah it's probably the case, and the fact they were frantic to fix this issue could have just shot them in the foot. However, as it still stands and as I stressed that I don't believe is possible as well, if some how the map (which SV had problems with this weekend) broke down and fed more to the system and RBR were getting different fuel flow numbers or some other weird act that was beyond the team a punishment wont be given. Yet I dont see how that is at all possible

Red Bull like to say "software glitch" because it has been weighing them down through the pre-season. But the software upgrades they brought along to Melbourne were supposed to fix the issue - and then it strikes Vettel's car twice in two days and causes Ricciardo to use too much fuel without being detected? I don't believe that for a second.

niky is right; the fuel flow regulator should physically prevent this from happening. But if someone wrote the map to tie fuel flow to ERS usage instead of ERS usage to fuel flow - and they were having troubles with the ERS units acting out of sync with the rest of the engine, so giving the ERS control and using the maps to fill in the gaps would be the kind of solution they would come up with - then the map could direct too much fuel through the restrictor when ERS was not in use.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Would've thought the fuel pump regulator itself would represent a hard limit on fuel flow, whatever the map. Or is flow regulation done entirely via the engine map?

That's what I thought too hence why I still think and actual piece of hardware can brake despite a map in place. However, it sounds as if the map does most of the work, but I'm still not sure. Also the rules don't make much sense from an engineering stand point either. Do the cars need to run 100kg/hr max at a constant that then can be lowered to save fuel below the constant of 100kg/hr? If not then couldn't RBR argue that they didn't run 100kg/hr but did so on a number of averages rather and that in doing so they were basically in the end running the same fuel flow as a team that did 100kg/hr at the max.

These FIA rules that are just linear and give no further description thus begging for teams to poke gaping loop holes in them needs to end.

Red Bull like to say "software glitch" because it has been weighing them down through the pre-season. But the software upgrades they brought along to Melbourne were supposed to fix the issue - and then it strikes Vettel's car twice in two days and causes Ricciardo to use too much fuel without being detected? I don't believe that for a second.

Not saying I do either, I believe the Vettel issues, but I think it's a convenient scapegoat for the situation they now see themselves in. As you can see above I think that is what they were really going for.

niky is right; the fuel flow regulator should physically prevent this from happening. But if someone wrote the map to tie fuel flow to ERS usage instead of ERS usage to fuel flow - and they were having troubles with the ERS units acting out of sync with the rest of the engine, so giving the ERS control and using the maps to fill in the gaps would be the kind of solution they would come up with - then the map could direct too much fuel through the restrictor when ERS was not in use.

Which is what I thought as well and was trying to get at by saying what if the restrictor itself was broken. However, the ERS unit void being filled in by more fuel consumption is a good point as well.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, it's probably like a speed limit regulator on these cars. If you go over that limit on pit road even by .04 or something minuscule you still get hit for speeding and I'm willing to bet the same applies here with the flow rate.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Racecar Engineering.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/red-bull-faces-disqualification-for-breaking-f1-fuel-rules/

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Racecar Engineering.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/red-bull-faces-disqualification-for-breaking-f1-fuel-rules/

Thanks for that Tired. So that proves that whatever the consistently was wasn't something massive as everyone seems to be jumping to or the car would have run out of fuel. Which means if it was over the cusp consistently maybe something was broken that they couldn't detect...I still doubt it but also still waiting...

 

[Mic_Col]

Well that's a real kick in the old danglys isn't it..

From the racecar-eng link:

The flow rate is monitored by a bespoke device (above) created by UK company Gill Sensors.

So I know who I'm blaming!!!

 

[zed300]

100kg of fuel is locked into the car right?
58 laps Race time is 1.32.58 for the winner, everyone else runs longer that finishes on the lead lap.
33 seconds/lap ERS = 31 minutes and 54 seconds
1 hour 1 minute and 4 seconds for the fuel = fuel flow lower than 100k/h
How can the fuel flow be higher than 100kg/h for a sustained period.

 

[Tired Tyres]

That depends on the efficiency of the Energy Recovery systems.

If you can get really good recovery then that would allow you to force more fuel than allowed for those times when "You can to push now".

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

I'm looking at this and thinking it constantly peaked over 100kg/h