FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Evian]

 

[azrael1965]

Except that's one track that PD did right. What's to stop me from saying T10 has "100x more soul" than PD because Laguna Seca or Road America are much more correct than some of the other tracks in GT5? How can you feel the "soul of Laguna" when it's represented as such a dreadfully boring track unlike FM4's counterpart? Or that T10 has "more soul" because they captured the sound & raw nature of the cars better than PD with 800 of them?

Though to be perfectly honesty, saying a game has "soul" is ridiculous, imo. I can understand a car or that, but it's a video game....

Nothing can stop you from doing that? It's your opinion and if Laguna Seca is what you like to drive on. FM4 has 100x more soul,for you. And if it's sound that matters you, FM4 is the game for you. But well i don't see the big difference between a car and a game. It's not as if a car is living or something. The 'soul' must be part of the imagination of the person enjoying the object. So if a car can have a soul , a game should as well.

 

[prymet1me]

Please dont turn this back into a Ring thread.

edit: Thanks azrael1965

 

[azrael1965]

I edited my post, because i misread his. Sorry but english is not my first language. So i hope you are happy.

 

[mykem]

What I usually notice with some track in Forza 3 and now 4 is how they fail to depict the proper elevation changes especially ones that are somewhat gradual. At Laguna Seca, you notice that as you head up from Turn 5 onto 6 and the climb leading to the Corkscrew.

But here's a good video comparing various real track versus their virtual counterparts in GT5 and FM4. What I noticed is both Suzuka and Nurburgring GP in FM4 are based on older circa 2007 track. On Suzuka, notice the missing extended Grandstand.

[YOUTUBEHD]8nsNYX5je0g?hd=1[/YOUTUBEHD]

With Suzuka while driving it in FM4 I noticed (as I did in FM3), the lack of perceived elevation as you navigate through the "S" cuves (turns 2-7). And somehow the curves feel a bit toned down. The same goes for Dunlop Curves. Funny enough despite using the circa 2007 layout (although this has mostly to do with trackside object and building), the version in FM4 added the runoff pavement at Spoon Curve. Adding further to the confusion is that GT5 did the complete opposite: while using the latest layout, it kept the sandpit on Spoon.

Unlike most people, I adore Tsukuba but not until GT5 has the track been depicted well. Forza 3 and now 4 don't quite cut the mustard. Missing are the cambered corners, the well known bump as head onto the Dunlop sign and a few more details that make Tsukuba. And I don't know whether it's the FOV (I tried adjusting them both in FM3 and FM4) but off track objects seems slightly off-scaled.

And to the Forza defence team- this is not an attack. These problems has persisted since FM2- I brought them up every year on FM.net with the hope that it will be change in the next iteration.

 

[McLaren]

Nothing can stop you from doing that? It's your opinion and if Laguna Seca is what you like to drive on. FM4 has 100x more soul,for you. And if it's sound that matters you, FM4 is the game for you. But well i don't see the big difference between a car and a game. It's not as if a car is living or something. The 'soul' must be part of the imagination of the person enjoying the object. So if a car can have a soul , a game should as well.

There is a gigantic difference between the feeling of a car & that of a game. No matter what you do, a video game will only give you so much physical feedback unless you go out of your way to get it. And it is virtually the same feedback for every single game, a vibration to replicate what might happen & feedback settings to give gaming wheels some weight.

A car possesses the capabilities to translate the road, grip, G's, etc. straight to your body & it varies from car to car. All those things & even the mechanics of a car are how journalists define how a car has soul. It's why a car like a F40 will have soul of a supercar & a GT-R is defined as a playstation. Video games don't do that. They can try & GT5's Nurburgring atmosphere is a great attempt, but it doesn't have "soul" in the same sense as an automobile. There's just too many flaws elsewhere imo, to even think about a game, any game, having some sort of "soul".

 

[Ryan81]

I for one love both Forza 4 and GT5.

I think a lot (not all) of the bias between the two comes from people who only own one console and hence can only experience one game.
On youtube there was a complete psychopath who was blasting Forza 4 (months before release) as being s***, useless etc and praising GT5 to high heaven. What was interesting was the number of factual errors but anyway.....

Both games have their strengths and weaknesses. I believe if anyone is a true car lover, they should like both. While they are competitors to a large extent, both are actually quite different in some ways.

So, we should celebrate the fact that both T10 and PD are giving us such amazing games. No other racing/driving franchises give us access to so many different cars 👍

 

[cuco33]

Games do not have soul, no matter the justification you give for it.

 

[SparksBCN]

Funny enough despite using the circa 2007 layout (although this has mostly to do with trackside object and building), the version in FM4 added the runoff pavement at Spoon Curve.

The tarmac runoff on Spoon has been there since 2005, so there's nothing wrong with FM's version, which ALWAYS had that runoff, they didn't add it for FM4.

And about the elevation changes, the camera used can change a lot the perspective and how do you see them. Here's a comparison between iRacing (laser-scanned track), GT5 and FM3, and the elevation changes pretty much look the same on the three renditions of the track:

 

[buickgnx88]

I for one love both Forza 4 and GT5.

I think a lot (not all) of the bias between the two comes from people who only own one console and hence can only experience one game.
On youtube there was a complete psychopath who was blasting Forza 4 (months before release) as being s***, useless etc and praising GT5 to high heaven. What was interesting was the number of factual errors but anyway.....

Both games have their strengths and weaknesses. I believe if anyone is a true car lover, they should like both. While they are competitors to a large extent, both are actually quite different in some ways.

So, we should celebrate the fact that both T10 and PD are giving us such amazing games. No other racing/driving franchises give us access to so many different cars 👍

I own both systems/games and would like to think that I don't have bias, especially starting out with GT and moving on to FM.

I honestly think that while PD's intentions may be in the right place, they bit off more than they could chew. I really think they should have started smaller with no rally/nascar/etc. and just started with basic road racing. Then, when the game is released, they could spend time on creating DLC packages with each racing type, such as a rally package with the tracks, 10 or so cars, and a variety of races. This way they could get the finer details ironed out for the basic game and have a great base for the continuation of the series.

Forza is basically the basic game I'm talking about, where they have much of the core structure figured out and turned into the game that is FM4. They can actually start creating additional content that didn't need to be in the original game, whereas PD has to create patches to add in parts of the game which should have been in from day one.

I guess since I do love muscle cars, I do have a bit of bias in liking FM over GT though!

I could say though that there are some things that I dislike about Forza (rim painting issues, lack of new wheels, the whole music system to name a few).

 

[Ryan81]

I own both systems/games and would like to think that I don't have bias, especially starting out with GT and moving on to FM.

I honestly think that while PD's intentions may be in the right place, they bit off more than they could chew. I really think they should have started smaller with no rally/nascar/etc. and just started with basic road racing. Then, when the game is released, they could spend time on creating DLC packages with each racing type, such as a rally package with the tracks, 10 or so cars, and a variety of races. This way they could get the finer details ironed out for the basic game and have a great base for the continuation of the series.

Forza is basically the basic game I'm talking about, where they have much of the core structure figured out and turned into the game that is FM4. They can actually start creating additional content that didn't need to be in the original game, whereas PD has to create patches to add in parts of the game which should have been in from day one.

I guess since I do love muscle cars, I do have a bit of bias in liking FM over GT though!

I could say though that there are some things that I dislike about Forza (rim painting issues, lack of new wheels, the whole music system to name a few).

I do agree with you to a large extent.

Perhaps they could have left Nascar, Rally etc out and just focused on track-based racing with production and race cars (SuperGT, DTM etc).
I suppose they wanted to try and please all interest groups but as you said, bit off more than they could chew.
In their defense though: I've heard it isn't easy and is very time-consuming to write the code for PS3 exclusive titles. Plus, T10 have had experience creating current generation games (Forza 2, 3 & 4) whereas GT5 is the first game PD have created for the PS3 so there were bound to be some glaring flaws. Don't forget, Forza 2 didn't have any cockpit views at all and so it wasn't until 3 that all cars had this feature.

I'm loving Autovista, though 👍

 

[Ooze27]

And about the elevation changes, the camera used can change a lot the perspective and how do you see them. Here's a comparison between iRacing (laser-scanned track), GT5 and FM3, and the elevation changes pretty much look the same on the three renditions of the track:

Pretty much this.The elevation changes are highly dependent on the position of the camera and angle of the camera.This applies as well to the wideness of the track and camber.I can clearly seem them, maybe they aren't as noticeable as the ones in GT5 but they're there.They're more noticeable though in replay mode sometimes (this in Forza games).Maybe the fov isn't the better one to give this idea, but watching a replay pretty much shows how the track is actually done.Imo of course.

Loved that video man.

 

[FyreandIce]

Sorry, but that is just the same kind of low level bashing FM4 gets by people who never played it before. Regarding the Nordschleife (and Ryan81 was referring to it) GT5 has 100x more soul than FM4. It has the correct layout, the 24h version, night& weather, so how can it be more clinical? How can you feel the soul of the track if Turn 10 didn't even try to make it accurate. I am pretty sure they can do it, because they did pretty well with other tracks, they just didn't care. This is what i would call missing soul.
To prove that the GT5 Nordschleife is not soulless just go to the GT5 Section on GTplanet. Count the number of ring threats there, enjoy the stories of peoples who have done the endurance races and share their experiences.

You have no idea what soul and clinical imply do you? I mean, look at the intro sequence of both games. GT shows a whole bunch of automated machinery mining the materials to build cars and than shows a car being built largely by automated systems.

FM4 has a monologue from Jeremy Clarkson that actually reflects the plight of a real motoring enthusiast while showing snippets of real racing people might be interested in.

That shows soul, not a bunch of machines building a machine.

And some more accurately modelled tracks doesn't = soul. Making a track "perfectly" accurate is a clinical experience

p.s Oh, and if you're going to use that argument, Forza clearly has more "soul" because Laguna Seca has been modelled better.

 

[Sele1981]

Sorry, but that is just the same kind of low level bashing FM4 gets by people who never played it before. Regarding the Nordschleife (and Ryan81 was referring to it) GT5 has 100x more soul than FM4. It has the correct layout, the 24h version, night& weather, so how can it be more clinical? How can you feel the soul of the track if Turn 10 didn't even try to make it accurate. I am pretty sure they can do it, because they did pretty well with other tracks, they just didn't care. This is what i would call missing soul.
To prove that the GT5 Nordschleife is not soulless just go to the GT5 Section on GTplanet. Count the number of ring threats there, enjoy the stories of peoples who have done the endurance races and share their experiences.

👍

PD/GT = passion
T10/FM = focus on quick cash

Sometimes FM gives me a feeling that they bash to implement nearly every car/track that is in GT... Unfortunately not in the same quality, what we can see with the Nordschleife.

Where PD has taken photos of each meter, driven hundreds of laps on the track, T10´s version feels like a 1 week project, only made to say "we have the Nordschleife in the game"...

But then, probably, Americans give that track not the importance that Europeans give. As we (mostly) here dont care about Nascar/Indy/Ice Hockey/NFL and all that American stuff...

 

[prymet1me]

👍

PD/GT = passion
T10/FM = focus on quick cash

Sometimes FM gives me a feeling that they bash to implement nearly every car/track that is in GT... Unfortunately not in the same quality, what we can see with the Nordschleife.

Where PD has taken photos of each meter, driven hundreds of laps on the track, T10´s version feels like a 1 week project, only made to say "we have the Nordschleife in the game"...

But then, probably, Americans give that track not the importance that Europeans give. As we (mostly) here dont care about Nascar/Indy/NHL/Ice Hockey and all that American stuff...

Wow, this is by far the most biased post in this thread.

 

[Akira AC]

Wow, this is by far the most biased post in this thread.

There have been worst.

Not exactly towards GT5 though.

 

[Bogie 19th]

👍

PD/GT = passion
T10/FM = focus on quick cash

Sometimes FM gives me a feeling that they bash to implement nearly every car/track that is in GT... Unfortunately not in the same quality, what we can see with the Nordschleife.

Where PD has taken photos of each meter, driven hundreds of laps on the track, T10´s version feels like a 1 week project, only made to say "we have the Nordschleife in the game"...

But then, probably, Americans give that track not the importance that Europeans give. As we (mostly) here dont care about Nascar/Indy/Ice Hockey/NFL and all that American stuff...

One of the worst posts I have seen on GTPlanet to date.

 

[cuco33]

GT5P = quick cash grab milking the fanbase. But I'm biased against the whole notion of Prologues. Why release half a game dubbed a glorified demo when you can be working on, oh I don't know... the actual game?!

Sele, I'd like to know where has T10 bashed PD. Are you refering to PR speak when Dan said definitive a dozen times when promoting his FM3 game? Isn't that on par with Kaz/PD labeling GT as 'the standard' or 'the real driving simulator' or saying that Forza isn't really a simulator? It's PR fluff, nothing more.

I'm American born, European raised, early childhood in EU (Portugal/Spain), lived in Italy for 9 months, visit Portugal, Spain, Italy and France on the norm and follow significantly more 'European' motorsports than American. I don't follow Nascar nor Indy and about the only American racing series I do follow is the ALMS which is an offspring of the euro enduros like Le Mans (American Le Mans Series). I also watch European footy (soccer) with a PASSION like no other but still like watching NHL and NFL on occasion, doesn't mean anything. Europe does follow American sports leagues, like NBA is followed by Italians and Portuguese alike, and all countries catch the NFL Super Bowl while NHL is followed by many hockey fans as it's on par, if not better, than the European leagues. Take off the tin foil hat and put the koolaid down for just a sec

 

[prymet1me]

Somebody on here must explain the "passion" behind GT5, cause I played a game that was not finished.

 

[Terronium-12]

As I've said before, it doesn't matter who's saying, or why they're saying it...this infatuation with GT having soul, or the "Spirit of GT" get's dumber and dumber every single time someone says it.

 

[Tornado]

👍

PD/GT = passion
T10/FM = focus on quick cash

He says a day before PD releases a $2 DLC pack that adds one-use paint chips to the game.

Sometimes FM gives me a feeling that they bash to implement nearly every car/track that is in GT... Unfortunately not in the same quality, what we can see with the Nordschleife.

Where PD has taken photos of each meter, driven hundreds of laps on the track, T10´s version feels like a 1 week project, only made to say "we have the Nordschleife in the game"...

But then, probably, Americans give that track not the importance that Europeans give. As we (mostly) here dont care about Nascar/Indy/Ice Hockey/NFL and all that American stuff...

I have a game on the Sega Genesis that has a rendition of Monaco that feels more accurate than the one in GT5.

 

[prymet1me]

As I've said before, it doesn't matter who's saying, or why they're saying it...this infatuation with GT having soul, or the "Spirit of GT" get's dumber and dumber every single time someone says it.

Your avatar change threw me for a loop! I read the posts when the fans try to explain it but most of it reads like an apology in behalf of PD,one poster even said he loves the game because it very flawed and Forza will never match it because its too consistent

I just dont understand it, I love cars and racing games and was a big GT fan back in the PS2 but I honestly feel like they are behind and stuck in the past. It really feels like development time with GT5 was mismanaged.

Funny thing is when you do complain or read complaints from GT fans you get responses like well this is how PD meant it to be, you should be grateful.



...By Scaff's name it says Forum Ninja. He really does come from the shadows when you think he is not there.

 

[Scaff]

Read the opening post of this thread, because if you post another video without any form of written contribution I am going to issue a two day ban for ignoring a moderator.

Scaff

 

[Akira AC]

As I've said before, it doesn't matter who's saying, or why they're saying it...this infatuation with GT having soul, or the "Spirit of GT" get's dumber and dumber every single time someone says it.

Because its been acknowledged.

One of the main problems with GT in these sort of comparison(and this includes some parts of the FM parade)is that the visual representation of game elements on GT have been presented to replicate the sense "professional career".

The term "GT soul" is just a misconception of the accurate representation and organization of the game elements that surround the driving concept, this should be consider, but that does not mean that GT games have soul, what it means is that these games are very good at replicating a concept or theme. If you consider games like for example Batman Asylum they are built to represent a theme according to a sub context or concept.

One of the problem with these kinds of representation is that the can fool the judgement of more tangible stuff, being tangible stuff what composes and is relevant in these kinds of games(sim racing games). These kinds of representations also help to complement the game experience, but it should be acknowledged that FM games(specially FM1, FM3, FM4) follow a different approach to the whole racing concept(specifically the car as a concept, rather than racing).

Likewise, the different elements that compose a game(assets, engine, multi-media adds) should be measured and distributed to complement the whole experience, one of the main differences between games like FM/GT and PC racing sims is that the PC racing sim approach is entirely orientated towards realism, while the console approach is orientated towards emulating an experience and therefore uses more of its resources in areas like graphics design and other areas to complement those experiences.

This phenomena is being overcome by many GT players, but it will be interesting to see the reaction when this phenomena overcome FM players as well.

 

[Scaff]

The following should add some lively debate to the thread.

The following is from an article on the Evo website (UK motoring magazine), I would strongly suggest watching the video that can be found on the link below before commenting and also reading info on the author of the piece (who is not a gamer)...

Just how accurately can Forza 4 replicate the character and handling traits of a car like the Subaru WRX STi?

It's actually a struggle to begin playing Forza Motorsport 4. Not on account of any menu-based confusion, but because the digital rendering sof the cars that populate the introductory screens, as the game loads, are so spellbinding in their crispness and accuracy that you lose yourself for a few minutes and stare as the camera pansaround the steroidal front arches of the latest Subaru WRX STi. Surely it's an HD video? You sit, mesmerised by the quality.

Forza 4 closes the tangible differences between real and digital to a point at which the naked eye struggles to decipher what is metal and what is rendered. Perhaps even more impressive is the fact that the same attention to accuracy present in the obsessive details of these renderings - the way the light swoops and pings from the WRX's mixture of soft shapes and sudden geometric outcrops - is also present in the driving dynamics of the cars themselves. Choose an WRX STi, and you are delivered not only that car's accurate form, but precisely the way it drives as well.

Really? I mean can you really glean any meaningful similarities between a computer game and a car with 297bhp? Given that all F1 teams now consider the simulator to be the most important development tool during the F1 season, it would seem that we need to keep an open mind on the subject. And an open wallet. The WRX STi, on a Welsh B-road, likes a drink. These latest 2.5-litreboxermotorsarequitedifferent in character to the McRae-era versions. Equal length intakes make them much smoother, less burbly and lumpy. Of course some of the character has been lost, but the upside is gratifying mechanical smoothness and a very particular sound: one that is uncannily replicated in the game.

Not being entirely sure how to conduct a test between something belonging to the material world and something which doesn't, I have settled on a simple plan. Accurately define how the, er, real WRX drives - what its basic characteristics are interms of power delivery and chassis response, and also what specific control inputs those behaviours require from the driver. Then go back to Forza 4 and seeif the same inputs generate the same response from the vehicle. Which isn't real. But which looks more real than the real thing. Think I might need a re-boot myself once this is finished.

The WRX is a front-engined, four- wheel-drive saloon car according, in the most part, to the traditional fast-Scooby script. The car has masses of mechanical grip, but it does want to understeer at all speeds. The only exception here on the latest version is that the car is more responsive to big throttle inputs early in a turn, and will throw more torque to the rear wheel than before. In short, it's a WRX that feels a bit like a Mitsubishi Evo. Unusually for a turbo flat-four, it's much happier to rev than expected, but it still suffers that frustrating torque-hole below 2500rpm. You have to keep it spinning above 3500 to feel even remotely bullish - the way nearly 300bhp should make you feel - and then between 4500 and 6000rpm the thing really flies. Relaxing, it is not.

It encourages a pretty brutal driving style - pushing into a turn with as much speed as the tyre grip will allow, then punching the throttle to take advantage of th ecar's new-found propensity to at least try to oversteer. The result is a kind of four-wheel drift as you exit a turn,but one you rarely have to correct with any steering lock.

Foolishly, back at Microsoft HQ , playing Forza 4, I don't give the WRX enough revs off the line and, just like the version that requires petrol, it bogs down. I should be celebrating this perfect demonstration of the simulator's art, but am instead livid at having been dusted by the entire grid. Chasing the fast-disappearing backsides of my competitors, and a little distracted by the level of detail in the background scenery (is that a wooden hut up there?) on the Alps Circuit, I pile into Turn 1 way too fast. In true WRX style, the front axle refuses to hit the apex, so I slow the car as fast as possible and then attempt to turn again. We don't crash; but we do learn that the circle-of-friction is rigorously obeyed on Forza 4: a hard-braking tyre cannot change direction at the same time.

The distractions continue: light pings from the snowy hills around the Impreza as it warbles up through each gear. Watch the rev-counter needle and in 2nd and 3rd gears it moves a little quicker between 4500rpm and 6000rpm, just like the street car. Into a tight second-gear turn, the entry speed is more reasonable, the car sweeps in, flat-on-the-gas and the understeer disappears and you enjoy that samefleetingsensationof allfourwheels dragging, not pushing, but hauling you from the apex.

It's hard not to get carried away with this cod-reality; it's infectious because its accuracy panders to the need in allof us to explore areas of dynamics otherwise denied by factors such as cost and lack of skill. Or wanting to stay alive. By way of example: we all know a Scooby deliberately tormented with a trailing throttle will pull big drifts, and you will be glad to hear that the same is true in the parallel universe of the Alps Circuit on Forza 4.

The only difference is that you will not attract the attention of the law, or enrich the owner of your local body-shop. Is it accurate? Yes, dangerously so.

Source - http://www.evo.co.uk/forza4/article3.php

The author of the piece is Chris Harris, an experienced motoring journalist who has written on performance cars worldwide and also has aa good degree of racing experience as well (including the Carrerra cup and the N24).



Scaff

 

[Vaxxtx]

The following should add some lively debate to the thread.

The following is from an article on the Evo website (UK motoring magazine), I would strongly suggest watching the video that can be found on the link below before commenting and also reading info on the author of the piece (who is not a gamer)...


Source - http://www.evo.co.uk/forza4/article3.php

The author of the piece is Chris Harris, an experienced motoring journalist who has written on performance cars worldwide and also has aa good degree of racing experience as well (including the Carrerra cup and the N24).



Scaff

Chris Harris doesnt = Kaz so his point is totally invalid man.

Ok but seriously, pretty good article. Its nice to see someone make a comparison that isnt a "game guy" and more of a car guy. The fact he could could tell how similar the car drove is impressive for FM4.

 

[azrael1965]

The following should add some lively debate to the thread.

The following is from an article on the Evo website (UK motoring magazine), I would strongly suggest watching the video that can be found on the link below before commenting and also reading info on the author of the piece (who is not a gamer)...


Source - http://www.evo.co.uk/forza4/article3.php

The author of the piece is Chris Harris, an experienced motoring journalist who has written on performance cars worldwide and also has aa good degree of racing experience as well (including the Carrerra cup and the N24).



Scaff

So what we need now, is a test how realistic the Gt5 version of the WRX STi
behaves.

 

[Ooze27]

So what we need now, is a test how realistic the Gt5 version of the WRX STi
behaves.

And highly doubt that it will be considered unrealistic, the problem in this thread is that people who think that GT5 is realistic automatically means that F4 isn't, when in fact they both are realistic, that piece of press proves it.If one prefers one of the games over the other is a matter of personal choice, people just need to realize that as of today, they both are very good at what they try to accomplish, which is a simulation on a console.I don't think this is a really hard concept to grasp, both games are simulating a driving experience using different technics and visual representation.

 

[PzR Slim]

👍

PD/GT = passion
T10/FM = focus on quick cash

Prove it. That's one of the requirements of this thread, to prove using evidence the claims that you make. You really are the most blinded poster in this thread. You pull this absolute tosh from nowhere without any proof or evidence. You truly think your opinions are fact. And at each instance it is thrown back in your face and countered with reasoned and informed arguments yet you still come back for more.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Prove it. That's one of the requirements of this thread, to prove using evidence the claims that you make. You really are the most blinded poster in this thread. You pull this absolute tosh from nowhere without any proof or evidence. You truly think your opinions are fact. And at each instance it is thrown back in your face and countered with reasoned and informed arguments yet you still come back for more.

Glutton for punishment for 500 please!?