The '13 driver transfer discussion/speculation thread op updated 16/10

[Peasantslayer]

I was just making the point that Button can dominate a race weekend. No driver can dominate if they don't have a good car beneath them that is fundamentally fast; Hamilton's performances in the early part of 2009 are a great example of that. I probably misunderstood what Peasantslayer meant when he said dominate. I was just pointing out that he has done it in the past.

I meant in the Mclaren, he hasn't dominated a weekend like Hamilton in the last few years because he has been his team mate. He's had one pole for Mclaren in almost 3 years and that was when the Mclaren was clearly the fastest car and Lewis chose the completely wrong setup.

I wouldn't say he "got dominated" by Brawn GP. For a start, he was ahead of Rubens in the standings. As a matter of fact, had it not been for some poor reliability and also a few mistakes made by the then twenty one/two year old Vettel (in his first season in a front running car), he could be a three time world champion by now.

Normally I don't like talking about what could have been, but it's certainly unfair to say he was dominated by Brawn GP. He showed remarkable maturity for his age and he is continuing to mature as a driver. A lot of people are quick to put him down, but you can't deny that he's been pulling off passes this season that some didn't think he was capable of previously. Not the best overtaker on the grid, but he's certainly improving and he still has that blistering pace and the ability to manage his tires. I've been a fan of him since before he moved up to F1 and I predict he'll be unstoppable in a few years.

Brawn dominated the first half and it was a mix of Red Bull and others in the second half, Vettel is definitely underrated. When he has a good car and he's happy I'd say he's even more complete than Fernando and he's still 25.

 

[Anghammarad]

Edit: I'm pretty sure this post was initially made by my three year old boy.

 

[Akmuq]

The Brawn was fastest for the first 6 or 7 races, then the Red Bull caught and passed it, was fastest for a bit, but Webber and Vettel kept knocking points off each other, then Hamilton came in and was just untouchable from Hungary onwards.

Had the team decided upon either Webber or Vettel before season, they would have become champions.

 

[MSTER232]

Because pre-2009 he was quite the driver, and hadn't really developed the attitude. We're fans of the old Lewis. Not the new whiny one.

He chooses to have diamond earrings? So what?

This.

 

[niky]

Hamilton a whiny prat... Yeah, yeah, tell us something we don't know?

You don't get to be World Champion by being "Mister Nice"... Button was an exception to the norm. Alonso, Prost, Schumacher, Senna, Vettel, all massive egos, all some of the most successful drivers ever. Schumacher may have put a genteel face on for the cameras, but he, like another Michael, (Jordan) was a ruthless perfectionist who played mind games with both opponents and teammates.

Massa is touted as a nice guy, but that tantrum he threw over "team orders"? Come on... That's the height of hypocrisy. He pulled over for Kimi during his championship run, and Kimi pulled over for him. Massa was no victim, he just wanted to make a point.

Yes, Lewis is a massive ego. But the only difference between him and other champions is he wears his heart on his sleeve.

What really matters is what he does on track. And that's what Mercedes is paying for.

-

RE:Vettel and overtakes. Totally the car. The RBR of that time was a twitchy monster that came unglued when pulling out of slipstream. It caught both Vettel and Webber out on several occassions, so you can't lay that all on Sebastian.

I think he does a fantastic job mixing it up on track.

 

[MSTER232]

Ego...?

 

[F1 fan]

RE:Vettel and overtakes. Totally the car. The RBR of that time was a twitchy monster that came unglued when pulling out of slipstream. It caught both Vettel and Webber out on several occassions, so you can't lay that all on Sebastian.

Exactly. They are also at a major disadvantage in terms of straight line speed which certainly doesn't help. In Germany, he couldn't get close to the driver in front (I believe it was Alonso) even with the DRS activated.

 

[AnaIog]

Am I the only one still undecided on Perez? Saying he's a future world champion is a bit premature. He hasn't won a race yet. He's got the raw pace but is pretty inconsistent and unproven at the front.

Raw pace doesn't really come to mind when I think about what has led to Perez's successes. It's not that he isn't fast, but he's good on his tires and is usually consistent.

 

[Peasantslayer]

Raw pace doesn't really come to mind when I think about what has led to Perez's successes. It's not that he isn't fast, but he's good on his tires and is usually consistent.

His best performances have definitely come in the race, the difference between him and Kamui when it comes to managing tyre wear suggests that it isn't just the car either.

 

[zippy_the_cat]

You've misunderstood my point. I wasn't saying that Alonso doesn't want a strong team mate, my point was that I don't believe that any of those drivers you have listed, including Vettel, are good enough to beat him over the course of a championship. In other words, any of those drivers would be better off driving for any team that Fernando isn't.

Thought you were a member of the "Alonso doesn't like/can't handle a good No. 2" brigade, and if you're not, sorry.

I wouldn't sell Vettel short, however. Nobody else in the game has his one-lap pace; certainly Fernando doesn't, and Fernando's pretty well admitted as much. Track position = wins a lot of the time. Vettel age-wise will also be at his physical peak when he makes the move, whereas Alonso is already on what is, for an athlete, the wrong side of 30. And I wouldn't be surprised if Vettel goes to Ferrari as a four-time WDC.

We'll never know if Kubica could've matched Alonso, but pre-accident the paddock certainly rated him a top driver. Webber lacks the consistency but on his day can dominate. Same is true of Button.

 

[Centura]

Exactly. They are also at a major disadvantage in terms of straight line speed which certainly doesn't help. In Germany, he couldn't get close to the driver in front (I believe it was Alonso) even with the DRS activated.

I was really impressed by Vettel in Spa. He pulled off overtakes that Webber couldn't. He was much quicker in the race, but he still managed the tyres better.

 

[Seismica]

I meant in the Mclaren, he hasn't dominated a weekend like Hamilton in the last few years because he has been his team mate. He's had one pole for Mclaren in almost 3 years and that was when the Mclaren was clearly the fastest car and Lewis chose the completely wrong setup.

What about all the times Button dominated Hamilton in 2011? As Vettel dominated qualifying that year, Button had to settle for second whenever he performed, despite dominating his teammate. This year Mclaren have the fastest car, and Hamilton has been right up there more than Button has, but that doesn't discount the fact that Button has won two races to Hamilton's 3, which doesn't in any way show he's being 'dominated'. I don't buy how you put down Hamilton's poor performance to setup, but then when Button performs badly it's because he's a worse driver; it's double standards. (You would think complaining of understeer would point to setup problems, but it's clearly lack of driving skill).

We're going off topic a bit... I guess we'll see what happens by the end of the year. As far as I am concerned, they have both beaten the other on points over a whole season. This year it's best of 3. Now that Button's setup gremlins seem to be resolved, we'll see who comes out on top in Brazil.

It's always interesting to see how drivers perform when they are in the same car. I look forward to seeing how Perez performs against Button, and how Nico performs against Hamilton.

 

[Peasantslayer]

What about all the times Button dominated Hamilton in 2011? As Vettel dominated qualifying that year, Button had to settle for second whenever he performed, despite dominating his teammate. This year Mclaren have the fastest car, and Hamilton has been right up there more than Button has, but that doesn't discount the fact that Button has won two races to Hamilton's 3, which doesn't in any way show he's being 'dominated'. I don't buy how you put down Hamilton's poor performance to setup, but then when Button performs badly it's because he's a worse driver; it's double standards. (You would think complaining of understeer would point to setup problems, but it's clearly lack of driving skill).

We're going off topic a bit... I guess we'll see what happens by the end of the year. As far as I am concerned, they have both beaten the other on points over a whole season. This year it's best of 3. Now that Button's setup gremlins seem to be resolved, we'll see who comes out on top in Brazil.

It's always interesting to see how drivers perform when they are in the same car. I look forward to seeing how Perez performs against Button, and how Nico performs against Hamilton.

2011 was definitely Hamilton's worst year in F1, I put one poor Hamilton performance down to setup (Spa) and that was when Hamilton went for a high downforce wing and Button went for a low downforce wing. At Hungary, both Spain GPs, Canada, Singapore, Bahrain and Monaco they went for pretty much the same thing but Button was miles off because of a lack of speed not because he was crashing all the time like Lewis last year. If neither Lewis or Jenson have obvious problems for the rest of the year then I expect Lewis to extend his lead over him. As you said it will be good to see how good Rosberg and Perez do against team mates that have had recent success.

 

[TyrrellRacing]

Raw pace doesn't really come to mind when I think about what has led to Perez's successes. It's not that he isn't fast, but he's good on his tires and is usually consistent.

I suppose it all comes down to how much of the small tyre wear was down to him and how much was down to the car. Certainly he is much better than Kobayashi at managing the tyres. Maybe I've paid too much attention to the poor qualifying performances and dismissed them as driver error rather than the car simply not being a quick one lap car.

 

[vetteman24]

I just realized something about this Perez deal since he has the backing of Telcel. Is it possible that Telcel sticks with Sauber or goes with Perez to McLaren even though they have Vodafone?

 

[CinnamonOD]

I just realized something about this Perez deal since he has the backing of Telcel. Is it possible that Telcel sticks with Sauber or goes with Perez to McLaren even though they have Vodafone?

Today, Carlos Slim said in an interview for ESPN that Escuderia Telmex (Where Perez, Gutierrez and many others come from) and Sauber's alliance, will go on despite Perez not being in Sauber, and he said that if they continue with Sauber, they will with another mexican in the team, most likely to be Gutierrez, and Jimmy Morales, Escuderia Telmex director said that there will be no conflict between Telcel and Vodafone, noting that there are negotiations to place Esteban Gutierrez in Sauber, and a confirmation to be said during the first days of this week.

 

[The Outlaw]

Am I the only one still undecided on Perez? Saying he's a future world champion is a bit premature. He hasn't won a race yet. He's got the raw pace but is pretty inconsistent and unproven at the front.

I'm kind of in the same boat. I've been very impressed with his general maturity and on track awareness, but the fact that he's generally been a bit slower than Kobayashi (who isn't really known as being a superb qualifier himself) in qualifying makes me wonder if the hype is truly legitimate.

Evidence would suggest that he is most likely better in regards to tire wear than Kobayashi, but most likely the same can be said when comparing the Sauber to the rest of the field. And maybe the combinations of these 2 factor is just enough to have tipped the scales (in terms of strategy and overall pace) massively in his favor in the races where he's achieved his best results.

Regarding his pure speed - I'm impressed with his ability to use all of the track and get insanely close to barriers and such...but at the same time his shadow boxing/twitchiness with the wheel would suggest that he lacks a bit of feel or is simply a bit too aggresive/excited. I will say that his twitchiness with the wheel has calmed down a bit just over the course of this season... although some of this might be down to improved driveability of the car.

Regardless, I'm not putting him on a pedastal above say Di Resta/Hulkenburg until we can see what he does next year alongside Button (who is a very solid benchmark). I still think he has great potential (which is probably the most important thing) and should be a solid driver for Mclaren at the very least.

Perez moving to McLaren has really made Ferrari and the Force India drivers the biggest losers. Ferrari were probably going to keep Perez waiting for the 2014 then sign him up. He will probably stay at Mclaren for a long time. Di Resta and Hulkenberg must have been happy when they heard that Hamilton had made a gap, but depressed when a gap either of them could have filled was taken by someone on another team's radar.
As for Schumacher, I either see him retiring or moving to one of the not-so-new teams as an experienced and well regarded development driver.

Without a doubt, there's still plenty of other talent out there for Ferrari to scoop up. Unfortunately, some of it is just not as obvious because they may not have the machinery that would allow them to impress to such a degree (as with Perez)...

Hamilton a whiny prat... Yeah, yeah, tell us something we don't know?

You don't get to be World Champion by being "Mister Nice"... Button was an exception to the norm. Alonso, Prost, Schumacher, Senna, Vettel, all massive egos, all some of the most successful drivers ever. Schumacher may have put a genteel face on for the cameras, but he, like another Michael, (Jordan) was a ruthless perfectionist who played mind games with both opponents and teammates.

Massa is touted as a nice guy, but that tantrum he threw over "team orders"? Come on... That's the height of hypocrisy. He pulled over for Kimi during his championship run, and Kimi pulled over for him. Massa was no victim, he just wanted to make a point.

Yes, Lewis is a massive ego. But the only difference between him and other champions is he wears his heart on his sleeve.

What really matters is what he does on track. And that's what Mercedes is paying for.

-

RE:Vettel and overtakes. Totally the car. The RBR of that time was a twitchy monster that came unglued when pulling out of slipstream. It caught both Vettel and Webber out on several occassions, so you can't lay that all on Sebastian.

I think he does a fantastic job mixing it up on track.

I completely agree with everything you said here. It's no doubt all of these drivers have massive egos (and to be bothered by such is almost boarderline hypocritical in itself)...because you most likely wouldn't get to their level if you didn't have an almost delusional amount of self belief at times. Either way...these drivers/characters are a large part of what make F1 so interesting.

With that said, just because you're good at playing Mr. Nice guy (which must have some benefit to you in the end..) doesn't mean you don't have a massive ego either (it could just possibly mean you're a slightly better manipulator...which is even worse ). Massa is really no different (when it comes to ego) to the others as you alluded to, as well as Button IMO.

2011 was definitely Hamilton's worst year in F1, I put one poor Hamilton performance down to setup (Spa) and that was when Hamilton went for a high downforce wing and Button went for a low downforce wing. At Hungary, both Spain GPs, Canada, Singapore, Bahrain and Monaco they went for pretty much the same thing but Button was miles off because of a lack of speed not because he was crashing all the time like Lewis last year. If neither Lewis or Jenson have obvious problems for the rest of the year then I expect Lewis to extend his lead over him. As you said it will be good to see how good Rosberg and Perez do against team mates that have had recent success.

I would have to agree.

 

[dj_hazardous]

Vettel is a good driver, no doubt about it. People criticize him for dominating the 2011 world championship because he had a fast car. Well it's just stupid. It's rare that a champion emerges with an average car, because all the drivers on the grid are so good they can more or less challenge for the best time biding they have the equipment to do it.

I don't think Lewis Hamilton will ever win a world championship again, I think Vettel will. I am not a Vettel fan either, I find it boring whenever he wins for some reason (maybe it's all of that 2011 season lol) but still, I think 2012 is Alonso's title to lose. I also don't think Hamilton will be close in the hunt next year either. He went for the money, it's as simple as that.

 

[Peasantslayer]

Vettel is a good driver, no doubt about it. People criticize him for dominating the 2011 world championship because he had a fast car. Well it's just stupid. It's rare that a champion emerges with an average car, because all the drivers on the grid are so good they can more or less challenge for the best time biding they have the equipment to do it.

I don't think Lewis Hamilton will ever win a world championship again, I think Vettel will. I am not a Vettel fan either, I find it boring whenever he wins for some reason (maybe it's all of that 2011 season lol) but still, I think 2012 is Alonso's title to lose. I also don't think Hamilton will be close in the hunt next year either. He went for the money, it's as simple as that.

I don't think there is any other driver on the grid who would have racked up as many points as Vettel last year even with the car being so fast, he was pretty much flawless. You say Hamilton went just for the money, who knows what Ross Brawn has told him? I don't think Hamilton wants to spend the next few years driving around in the midfield even for a little pay rise.

 

[bypo]

I also don't think Hamilton will be close in the hunt next year either. He went for the money, it's as simple as that.[/QUOTE]

Dude, he was hired by ROSS BRAWN! You know who he is? What he achieved? He chose Hamilton to fill the spot BECAUSE he is one of the 3 best of the best drivers in the F1 GRID! Mercedes just had to pay whatever hamilton managers asked.. Get over yourself. He has a massive ego because he can have! Period.

 

[V v G T v V]

It is sad to see Schumi get kicked out like that... Yes, okay, he made a few mistakes but to kick the most successful driver out like that? Common... I would like to see what the others could do at 43 years of age... I think he is doing an okay job this year, except for Singapore and the bad luck...

I hope Lewis crashes and burns at Mercedes... Money should never be the determining factor

 

[Nismo34]

It is sad to see Schumi get kicked out like that... Yes, okay, he made a few mistakes but to kick the most successful driver out like that? Common... I would like to see what the others could do at 43 years of age... I think he is doing an okay job this year, except for Singapore and the bad luck...

I hope Lewis crashes and burns at Mercedes... Money should never be the determining factor

If I were team principal and I had a choice between a 7 time world champion, 43 year old who hasnt done well over the past 2 years, or a 27 year old, world champion who has been showing decent pace over the past 2 years I'd pick the 27 year old... Cant teach an old dog new tricks, might as well teach someone who has the pace to be up there.

 

[niky]

Schumacher at MGP = Jordan at the Wizards.

It's all about the hype. Sure, they'll have their good days, and you'll get the headlines for "old guy does well!" moments, but you really need a current superstar to tie the team together.

I feel bad about Sauber losing theirs. Their car is surprisingly good this year, and with just Kamui and a newdomer next year, their results will not likely match the car's potential... Unless Kamui can step up.

 

[V v G T v V]

If I were team principal and I had a choice between a 7 time world champion, 43 year old who hasnt done well over the past 2 years, or a 27 year old, world champion who has been showing decent pace over the past 2 years I'd pick the 27 year old... Cant teach an old dog new tricks, might as well teach someone who has the pace to be up there.

Schumacher at MGP = Jordan at the Wizards.

It's all about the hype. Sure, they'll have their good days, and you'll get the headlines for "old guy does well!" moments, but you really need a current superstar to tie the team together.

I feel bad about Sauber losing theirs. Their car is surprisingly good this year, and with just Kamui and a newdomer next year, their results will not likely match the car's potential... Unless Kamui can step up.

I know you are both right... But I am just saying that it is the way it is happening. Although I doubt Lewis would do better at 43....

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

It is sad to see Schumi get kicked out like that... Yes, okay, he made a few mistakes but to kick the most successful driver out like that? Common... I would like to see what the others could do at 43 years of age... I think he is doing an okay job this year, except for Singapore and the bad luck...

I hope Lewis crashes and burns at Mercedes... Money should never be the determining factor

Schumacher himself was unsure whether he wanted to stay in F1. It doesn't seem very harsh.

Whitmarsh has been saying that they offered him no less $$$ than Mercedes as far as he knows. It seems like they actually tried to keep him instead of trying to cheap out.

The bottom line is some people were complaining that he went straight to a top team. Many of those people are complaining again, now that he will be facing a challenge at a different team. I'm guessing for some reason they'll also be complaining when he leaves F1.

 

[Peasantslayer]

I know you are both right... But I am just saying that it is the way it is happening. Although I doubt Lewis would do better at 43....

I think many people doubt any driver would do better at 43 but the fact of the matter is, he's no longer good enough. This is a young mans sport which is why the likes of Prost and Mansell aren't competing for championships.

 

[niky]

Schumacher himself was unsure whether he wanted to stay in F1. It doesn't seem very harsh.

Whitmarsh has been saying that they offered him no less $$$ than Mercedes as far as he knows. It seems like they actually tried to keep him instead of trying to cheap out.

The bottom line is some people were complaining that he went straight to a top team. Many of those people are complaining again, now that he will be facing a challenge at a different team. I'm guessing for some reason they'll also be complaining when he leaves F1.

Not knowing the whole truth, but given what has been in the news over the past few months, it seems like McLaren wouldn't budge on their offer to Lewis, and rumors were that Lewis' management team was floating the rumors of him moving to get McLaren to ante up.

McLaren finally did ante up, but by that time, It seems like the Mercedes deal was a done thing.

If McLaren really wanted to keep him, they would have agreed to terms up front. Instead, things have seemed sour for the past few races... Though personally I didn't want to read anything into it without knowing the whole story.

 

[Centura]

I don't think Lewis Hamilton will ever win a world championship again, I think Vettel will.

I think Hamilton will win at least one more championship, but he will never win as many as he should because he never think about the long game in a championship.

 

[Ardius]

I think its pretty clear to anyone that the McLaren-Hamilton relationship hasn't been the best lately. And its been made clear in the past that Hamilton isn't particularly happy with the large amount of sponsor commitments he has with them.
So I don't think its really surprising that McLaren weren't going out of their way to keep him, even though looking at it just with pure logic it seems a bit ridiculous. McLaren have less to lose than Hamilton does.

I'm not sure this is so much Hamilton wanting to go elsewhere, but being forced to. Not because McLaren have fired him or don't want him, but McLaren don't want to pay him more or ease back his commitments and Hamilton feels he deserves more.
Effectively a mutual decision - it wasn't either doing anything wrong to the other but simply both getting to the end of a line.

I think the important thing for Hamilton now is not to burn any bridges. He can always go back to McLaren as long he leaves on good terms. Not to mention its important to show to other teams that he hasn't left/got dropped because he was too much hassle to employ. The rest of the season will be very interesting following how Lewis handles this situation.

 

[Peasantslayer]

I think Hamilton will win at least one more championship, but he will never win as many as he should because he never think about the long game in a championship.

He doesn't think about the long game and neither do Mclaren, just look at how much better off Red Bull are in the constructors. When Mclaren see a weekend slipping away they still go for the win, they get too greedy at times.