The '13 driver transfer discussion/speculation thread op updated 16/10

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DK
I see Massa going to WEC. If I were him, I'd rather move onto something else rather than languish in a Force India, Sauber or Williams.
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Hum... brazilian drivers are narrow-minded when comes down to either stay in F1 just for be there, or get some risks and go to another race series, like WEC. He will prefer F1 above everything else, believe me. Is a cultural problem.

Motorsport isn't a very popular sport here, so the only thing that counts to sponsors, media and the general public is Formula 1. Example: None of my friends have the slighlest idea about what WEC is, but everyone knows about Eau Rouge. And they all think that drivers who went to Indy are losers, otherwise they would be in F1.
 
Ardius
Klien wasn't a pay driver, hence he doesn't deserve to be on your little list. I'm not really sure why you mentioned him at all, what was so "horrid" about him?
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He was a pay driver for HRT (I thought)which is what I was referring to, others (sports journos) also did.

Finally glad that Massa is out for now, someone could still pick him up.

EDIT:

Actually I think HRT paid him to drive because of his experience on BMW as a test/reserve driver and his other experience in Jaguar/RBR. If so then he shouldn't be on the list and the only reason for that short list is drivers that were utilized for the money only and not talent only to be tossed for someone with more money and perhaps slightly more talent. I think the practice is what leaves a horrid taste which is what I meant not the drivers themselves though some of them I'd say are horrid.

Wardez
Your guys' standards are faultless.
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^this if It aint a podium with a crap car then you guys turn away because it's not good enough. I'm glad some of you aren't in charge, the guy would have to be Jesus racing a dog sled and ending up on the podium to catch your attention.

SagarisGTB
Both of those fall under the umbrella of "(1) Massa is not as good as he was before", and the latter is not very likely based on how Alonso has been ahead with a similar gap from the very start.
Then why did you reply to this:
...with an argument. The whole Gutierrez debate stems from this post; I said Gutierrez was accomplished enough in lower formula to deserve a chance in F1, you replied and countered, implying that you disagreed and thought he didn't.
He wasn't a pay driver in his younger days with Jaguar but wasn't he a pay driver for his HRT stint, or am I imagining that based on how every other HRT driver was bringing in money?
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Actually it is likely considering that Kimi got the 2007 title and Massa failed to get the 2008, and after the accident in 2009 Ferrari seemed unsure of Massa. Though Alonso they felt could easily revive Ferrari championship winning ability and he almost did in 2010 but failed in the end. Due to this and the obviousness (to ferrari) that Felipe had diminished after being out in 2009 focus from then on shifted toward Alonso. And it could be said that was probably the focus all along due to the 1-2 driver history Ferrari has, even if Felipe was battling for WDCs. So I don't see how it is unlikely.

I disagreed that he deserved the drive right then and there based on talent and that another year would sever him. As I said you quoted me in that context to ignore it now and further perpetuate this argument just because is rather pointless, when there is documentation. Also the reason to argue was that it wasn't talent that got him the seat and I stick to that. I get the feeling you have a place in your heart for Esteban (for reasons I can't understand), and one can state this based on how you receive Hulkenburg.

The fact that he was able to score in the points and compete better than people, that could be argued were in better cars (e.g. Renault of Petrov), says something. The fact that he nearly equaled Rubens best finish and didn't get crushed. Qualifying showed that Hulkenburg could be faster than Rubens in the rain, but in dry he held close to Rubens and even tied, though Rubens did smash him 5 out of the 13 times he beat him Nico proved that Rubens wasn't incredibly faster. What seemed to be the issue was during the race and Rubens having pace and knowing how to get the job done. While I'd say Nico being a rookie had work to do but 2012 and 123 show he can drive a bad car to the top especially in the rain.
 
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LMSCorvetteGT2
Also the reason to argue was that it wasn't talent that got him the seat and I stick to that.
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It was though, at least partially. Johnny Cecotto and other drivers bring just as much, if not more, money to the table as Gutierrez, but Gutierrez got the Sauber drive. Why? Because he brings big money AND he showed talent in lower formula. A pretty good combination in F1 these days.
LMSCorvetteGT2
I get the feeling you have a place in your heart for Esteban (for reasons I can't understand), and one can state this based on how you receive Hulkenburg.
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LOL. I state that Hulkenburg is unproven based on him only beating shaky teammates (aka crappy aka not F1 caliber) and this suggests that I have a soft spot for Gutierrez? I imply that Gutierrez isn't good enough and all you get from that is that there's a place in my heart for him? I don't even.
LMSCorvetteGT2
I disagreed that he deserved the drive right then and there based on talent and that another year would sever him. As I said you quoted me in that context to ignore it now and further perpetuate this argument just because is rather pointless, when there is documentation.
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I would agree that he could have used another year in GP2 but that wasn't the discussion. The simple unsaid question was: Did Esteban Gutierrez show enough to merit getting an opportunity in F1 (at the time he was signed, just so you don't start being retrospective again)? I made the claim that he did, you countered.

Anyway, I'm not going to 'further perpetuate this argument' in general. It's done. I think this has run it's course.
 
I just can't wait to see Raikkonen back !!!!!!
I'm sure Kimi won't accept a 2nd driver role, Alonso need to understand that, they are booth "1st drivers". The team must be clear from the start. Drivers should be free to challange themselves on track as long as they don't crash each other out, damaging the team.
 
I'm very surprised (and quite delighted) that Ferrari appear to have taken a leaf out of McLaren's playbook and finally have opted for two top drivers rather than the 'Batman and Robin' set-up they've had so many times in the past. Will it work? Well, they need to do something, as although Alonso has been close to greatness in the Ferrari, he (or rather, the team as a whole) have fallen short, and the gap between Ferrari and Red Bull is only getting wider. Personally, I don't really care if it works or not - it should get the best out of two of the best drivers in the world, and it still has potential to end in tears before bedtime. Will Alonso walk? I hope not, but I wouldn't be at all surprised. He's not a happy camper right now.
 
NissanSkylineN1
One year contract with a renewable option? That's it? Where's he gonna go after?
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Or it's his choice to keep his options open. For all we know Ferrari could be a total flop next year and he'll want to bail. It's not like he needs the security of a long contract, I'm sure every team on the grid would be happy to have him drive for them.
 
Touring Mars
I'm very surprised (and quite delighted) that Ferrari appear to have taken a leaf out of McLaren's playbook and finally have opted for two top drivers rather than the 'Batman and Robin' set-up they've had so many times in the past.
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:lol::lol::lol:
 
2014 is certainly shaping up to be an interesting year, hopefully it actually ends up that way.👍
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
Actually it is likely considering that Kimi got the 2007 title and Massa failed to get the 2008, and after the accident in 2009 Ferrari seemed unsure of Massa.
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It's likely? Or maybe it's just as likely that Massa (in his supposed prime) was simply never on Alonso's level to begin with. I rather go with what the results have shown once Massa had a new team mate, rather than assume the accident had a dramatic affect on his abilities, when doctor's/trainers (who have great resources to assess/judge this) and Massa himself have always said words to the contrary time and time again.

This whole argument started because of zippy claiming how poor of a driver Massa is and how dumb Ferrari would be for not signing someone like Raikkonen, despite their prior results (when teamed up together) suggesting something MUCH different. I'm just trying to bring things back to reality, using evidence which doesn't get much more direct.

LMSCorvetteGT2
Though Alonso they felt could easily revive Ferrari championship winning ability and he almost did in 2010 but failed in the end. Due to this and the obviousness (to ferrari) that Felipe had diminished after being out in 2009 focus from then on shifted toward Alonso. And it could be said that was probably the focus all along due to the 1-2 driver history Ferrari has, even if Felipe was battling for WDCs. So I don't see how it is unlikely.
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Alonso was clearly the best option for Ferrari after Raikkonen left though, and it would have been quite a dumb move to have not swept him up off the playing table/oppositions hands after being left in a rocky situation in 09' (Raikkonen leaving & Massa's injury). So again, the signing of Alonso genuinely didn't really do much to support this idea of Ferrari's lack of confidence in Felipe's abilities before he had even made a return.

And who's to say Felipe's abilities had truly diminished? The only genuine evidence you're using to say Felipe's abilities diminished is based on the raw results relative to the opposition (which is stronger than the past) and NEW team mate, and these results since 2010 not being as good as they once were. To me, this is a very vauge and often inaccurate way of coming to a conclusion in such a case.
 
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Touring Mars
I'm very surprised (and quite delighted) that Ferrari appear to have taken a leaf out of McLaren's playbook and finally have opted for two top drivers rather than the 'Batman and Robin' set-up they've had so many times in the past. Will it work? Well, they need to do something, as although Alonso has been close to greatness in the Ferrari, he (or rather, the team as a whole) have fallen short, and the gap between Ferrari and Red Bull is only getting wider. Personally, I don't really care if it works or not - it should get the best out of two of the best drivers in the world, and it still has potential to end in tears before bedtime. Will Alonso walk? I hope not, but I wouldn't be at all surprised. He's not a happy camper right now.
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The Outlaw
It's likely? Or maybe it's just as likely that Massa (in his supposed prime) was simply never on Alonso's level to begin with. I rather go with what the results have shown once Massa had a new team mate, rather than assume the accident had a dramatic affect on his abilities, when doctor's/trainers (who have great resources to assess/judge this) and Massa himself have always said words to the contrary time and time again.

This whole argument started because of zippy claiming how poor of a driver Massa is and how dumb Ferrari would be for not signing someone like Raikkonen, despite their prior results (when teamed up together) suggesting something MUCH different. I'm just trying to bring things back to reality, using evidence which doesn't get much more direct.

Alonso was clearly the best option for Ferrari after Raikkonen left though, and it would have been quite a dumb move to have not swept him up off the playing table/oppositions hands after being left in a rocky situation in 09' (Raikkonen leaving & Massa's injury). So again, the signing of Alonso genuinely didn't really do much to support this idea of Ferrari's lack of confidence in Felipe's abilities before he had even made a return.

And who's to say Felipe's abilities had truly diminished? The only genuine evidence you're using to say Felipe's abilities diminished is based on the raw results relative to the opposition (which is stronger than the past) and NEW team mate, and these results since 2010 not being as good as they once were. To me, this is a very vauge and often inaccurate way of coming to a conclusion in such a case.
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Quote of the month.
PS we need a +1 button in this forum.
 
Imari
Or it's his choice to keep his options open. For all we know Ferrari could be a total flop next year and he'll want to bail. It's not like he needs the security of a long contract, I'm sure every team on the grid would be happy to have him drive for them.
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It's a two year deal he has, not one with an option I'm pretty sure:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/09/11/kimi-raikkonen-ferrari-f1-2014/

But yeah, there's no guarantee that Ferrari will be any better than they've been next year with it coming down to engines so much.

But the thing is that with the super group they've got going in Rory Byrne, James Allison, Alonso, and Raikkonen, they'll be totally ostracized if they don't dominate. At the least the WCC.

btw I hope they keep Rob Smedley! He's easily my favorite race engineer. Got such a cool voice and mannerism. Can't wait to hear the banter he gives to Kimi xD Hopefully he enjoys having him humm down his ear besides the usual robotic engies he's mostly had.

He better not be rude to him!

 
The Kimi vs Alonso debate is already tired and it's only been so long xD

I wish everyone would just calm down till next year, but I know that's not gonna happen.

But... damn it, just to throw my hat in, I guess, at this present time, I'm rating Alonso higher than Kimi.

Mentally, Kimi's better, so what could happen is Alonso will trip over himself trying to outdo him quickly.

Each driver has their strengths and weaknesses of course, so yeah.

It'll be interesting to see who come out on top more in quali. 'cause people like to call Kimi a bad qualifier now, but that's not the case, it's the car.

Gonna be an epic watch anyway, can't wait.

But yeah, I wouldn't try to say at all that Alonso's wayyy better than Raikkonen though, no way.
 
The Outlaw
Alonso was clearly the best option for Ferrari after Raikkonen left though,
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Raikkonen didn't leave, he was contracted for 2010 and asked to step aside - which meant Ferrari owed him his 2010 salary.
If Raikkonen had left, Ferrari would have found a way to not pay him for 2010. Ferrari got rid of him, not the other way around.
 
SagarisGTB
You do know that The Outlaw suggested that Kimi is probably nowhere near as good as Alonso, right?
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No, what I'm reading is Massa being nowhere near as good as Alonso which is true. Kimi had some bad luck in 2008, Hamilton crashed him, he had some nasty mechanical failures, therefore half-season his focus went south. Massa was driving over his skills, everyone has the "best season ever" for Massa was in 2008. Kimi career proved he is a Top Driver, he had that race pace only Vettel Alonso and Hamilton have, and that constency in scoring points other good drivers like Nico Rosberg don't have.
 
Has Alonso said anything yet about this whole deal?


HKS racer
No, what I'm reading is Massa being nowhere near as good as Alonso which is true. Kimi had some bad luck in 2008, Hamilton crashed him, he had some nasty mechanical failures, therefore half-season his focus went south. Massa was driving over his skills, everyone has the "best season ever" for Massa was in 2008. Kimi career proved he is a Top Driver, he had that race pace only Vettel Alonso and Hamilton have, and that constency in scoring points other good drivers like Nico Rosberg don't have.
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rofl.
 
Wardez
Mentally, Kimi's better, so what could happen is Alonso will trip over himself trying to outdo him quickly.
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Personally, I feel they're both mentally strong, but just in much different ways. Fernando is utterly relentless, persistent and passionate (moreso than Kimi in these area IMO), while Kimi is less tempermental and egotistical. Both these things have their benefit/harm depending on the circumstances I feel.

On another comical note - I always felt Alonso had a thing for Kimi's style/schwag though....from Fernando copying Kimi's hair, to the big flat brim hats, tats, etc. :lol: So I wonder if Kimi might rattle Alonso in that deparment :sly: haha


Ardius
Raikkonen didn't leave, he was contracted for 2010 and asked to step aside - which meant Ferrari owed him his 2010 salary.
If Raikkonen had left, Ferrari would have found a way to not pay him for 2010. Ferrari got rid of him, not the other way around.
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Yes you are correct, but this is completely beside the point of my post and a bit petty in the big picture.

SagarisGTB
You do know that The Outlaw suggested that Kimi is probably nowhere near as good as Alonso, right?
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I didn't neccesarily suggest that. Rather that maybe Massa just never had the raw ability to take on Alonso, despite him having great "results" (which can be quite vague when judging a drivers ability) when teamed up together with Kimi. Instead it seems like some people constantly like to come up with excuses (he was never the same driver after his accident, Alonso has all the support, etc.) as to why Massa hasn't been able to compete with Alonso points wise.

Again, this all goes back to zippy saying Ferrari would be crazy not to drop Massa for Kimi. Personally, I'd rather wait and see how Kimi performs against Alonso, rather than stating it as some well know fact that Kimi will do much better than Massa has, when the most grounded evidence (not hand picking for this or that excuse for Massa or Raikkonene) we have in hand (Kimi/Massa 07-09) suggest otherwise! :lol:

This will be my last post regarding this topic...time to move on :)
 
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