The '13 driver transfer discussion/speculation thread op updated 16/10

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Sirotkin is going to do 10-15 days testing in a 2011-spec car to try and obtain his Super License.

http://www.f1today.net/en/news/saubers-sirotkin-to-test-ten-to-fifteen-days-in-2011-car?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Yeah and Sauber are giving the idea that Gutierrez will probably be gone next year. I don't see how or why they'd do it since Hulk seems ready to go and has been ready for some time.

 

[Ardius]

Yeah and Sauber are giving the idea that Gutierrez will probably be gone next year. I don't see how or why they'd do it since Hulk seems ready to go and has been ready for some time.

Perhaps Carlos Slim isn't prepared to pay the money that the Russians are, and seeing as Gutierrez is mainly there because of that...

To be fair to Gutierrez, he has been a lot closer to Hulk the last few race weekends. But he's still hardly a convincing potential points-scorer, never mind anything else.

It seems odd that Sauber have also cut their connections with Robin Frijns as well, the second Sauber seat is quickly becoming quite the conundrum.

Previously Sauber have either grabbed decent experienced midfield drivers (Hulkenburg, Kobayashi, De La Rosa, Heidfeld, Villenueve, Herbert, Salo, Fisichella), promoted a driver they've been watching or involved with (Raikkonen, Frentzen, Wendlinger, Kubica) or taken pay drivers or sponsored drivers (Diniz, Massa, Perez, Gutierrez).

The names that would fill those 3 driver types would be Hulkenburg, Frijns and Gutierrez...so I have no idea who else they would grab. Then again their choice of Kobayashi and De La Rosa was incredibly random so who knows. Maybe they'll have Max Chilton and his money or maybe they'll have Jules Bianchi with his Ferrari connection.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Perhaps Carlos Slim isn't prepared to pay the money that the Russians are, and seeing as Gutierrez is mainly there because of that...

To be fair to Gutierrez, he has been a lot closer to Hulk the last few race weekends. But he's still hardly a convincing potential points-scorer, never mind anything else.

It seems odd that Sauber have also cut their connections with Robin Frijns as well, the second Sauber seat is quickly becoming quite the conundrum.

Previously Sauber have either grabbed decent experienced midfield drivers (Hulkenburg, Kobayashi, De La Rosa, Heidfeld, Villenueve, Herbert, Salo, Fisichella), promoted a driver they've been watching or involved with (Raikkonen, Frentzen, Wendlinger, Kubica) or taken pay drivers or sponsored drivers (Diniz, Massa, Perez, Gutierrez).

Exactly why I'm confused myself, since everything you've said has been a long tried and true formula at Sauber. Maybe since Peter isn't the main man and Kaltenborne has taken his spot, she has a different formula for drivers. Also she probably sees better economical outcome for Sauber with the Russians maybe. Furthermore, people seem to think that Slim is putting all his money at McLaren with Vodafone leaving at the end of this year.

The names that would fill those 3 driver types would be Hulkenburg, Frijns and Gutierrez...so I have no idea who else they would grab. Then again their choice of Kobayashi and De La Rosa was incredibly random so who knows. Maybe they'll have Max Chilton and his money or maybe they'll have Jules Bianchi with his Ferrari connection.

Well I could see them with Bianchi since they have the Ferrari connection already via engines.

 

[Wardez]

Bianchi and Gutierrez would be great together imo. If Massa's booted from Ferrari and doesn't retire, maybe he'd be a great fit too.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Bianchi and Gutierrez would be great together imo. If Massa's booted from Ferrari and doesn't retire, maybe he'd be a great fit too.

I don't see it being those two, the Russian will probably get the license.

 

[SagarisGTB]

What powerful cars are you talking about exactly, that they raced in prior to GP2? If they actually raced in them wouldn't they have stayed there. Test role and racing are quite different, if that was the case why isn't Sam Bird winning this or why didn't he win in GP3 when he want back to it after being in GP2. Also Rossi driving a few days in separate years doesn't quantify into an abundance that would help him pull a Grosjean.

Big/powerful car = GP2, WSR, Auto GP, FN, Indycar, F1, etc. (ie bigger/much more powerful than F3 or FR2.0)
GP3 experience also helps getting started in GP2 because the tires are much the same. Rossi and Frijns have experience in big cars, so it's not quite the same as coming in from F3 or FR2.0, as Nasr did the year before.

As has been stated by me and others, the driver he is behind has maintained the points lead after having several horrid rounds since Silverstone. For someone you hold in high regard such deficits should have been easy to leap over, right? Well if he makes to F1 then we will see, but I don't see him being more than a average driver for now.

You're making it very clear that you don't watch GP2 and that you made up your mind off looking at results.

Raikkonen had a good victory rate and two championships in a short span that allowed him into F1 which he then thrived in. I'd say the Sauber of 2001 is not any better and maybe slightly worse than this years compared to the class it races against. Yet Kimi made amazing things happen with less under his belt than Gutierrez.

Amazing things happen? Let's not revise history. He was solidly outperformed by Heidfeld, which is nothing to be ashamed of considering Kimi's lack of experience, but it wasn't amazing things. At the time, many thought Heidfeld deserved the McLaren seat over Raikkonen, despite Kimi's good rookie season. But nevermind, that's all irrelevant, we are talking about PRE-F1. We are talking about deserving a shot, not deserving to stay in F1.

Raikkonen dominated at that low level FR UK, but that's not entirely unusual at that level with highly varying (and usually pretty sparse) competition, Pizzonia a year earlier also dominated thoroughly. Gutierrez himself dominated Formula BMW when he was racing at that level. Make no mistake, Sauber were taking a risk with Kimi. It was similar to giving a ride to someone like Alessio Rovera right now.

Now I say this because you decided to bring numbers or this "bigger is better" argument when that really isn't reality.

What do you mean? Bigger is better?

Also there are plenty of other things I think that show Estaban wont be a Kimi or even Jenson, perhaps Sutil if given the same length of time.

Kimi and Jenson is a very high level, but there was plenty to indicate he could have been better than Sutil before the season started.

Also it's not irrelevent because he wasn't picked based on talent, that came second and money came first and their is enough documentation to make this argument due to the financial woes and same monetary value (estimated) as Perez had. You also then realize that Hulkenburg and Kobiyashi two non-gathering sponsor types. It becomes more obvious through this year and the build up after November of last year.

You just don't get it. No one is denying that Gutierrez' funding was a major factor in getting his seat, but it clearly wasn't the only consideration, which I argue his GP3/GP2 results and young age are.

And funny you bring up Kobayashi because Kamui himself was poor in GP2 and only got his chance in F1 because of his relationship with Toyota. If Gutierrez didn't deserve his shot, Kamui sure as hell didn't.

Also, if you think Gutierrez didn't deserve his shot, please name some alternatives.

Two wins for Chilton over three seasons and five for VDG over 4 seasons or racing. Though multiple could be used let's not get carried away, compared to the top tier who clearly were faster during their lower tiers and in F1, I don't expect these guys to win anymore then I expect PdR to get a championship. Also I never said Diniz and Mazzacane were any better or worse than the class that you seem to be fond of, don't leap to some conclusion that I never even opened the door for you to have.

I'm not going to go too far in defending these guys (as they are the two I consider pure pay drivers in F1 right now, as I indicated previously), but I will say I'd rather have these two substandard drivers at the back of the grid instead of Deletraz or Mazzacane. As long as there are tiny backmarker operations struggling to survive, there will be pay drivers, but it's better to have guys that used to compete for GP2 wins over guys who made no impact in lower formula at all.

Overall quality isn't the best F1 has ever seen. I understand your optimism toward these guys, it's the same I see you tout in GT6 sub forum but you have to have some realism. Jules Bianchi makes Chilton look like a joke, and though it is somewhat to be expected via Ferrari test drives and promo drives this disparity in performance is obvious. VdG is at least trying to fight, but isn't any better to Pic. Either way unless seen otherwise this year or in the future, it's an exercise waste in trying to convince me especially when there is opposing evidence and popular belief that they perpetuate the money over talent debate.

What? You completely missed my point. I never said anything to indicate I expect anything from these two, other than that I expect both to not embarrass themselves (which they have done). You're putting words in my mouth.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Big/powerful car = GP2, WSR, Auto GP, FN, Indycar, F1, etc. (ie bigger/much more powerful than F3 or FR2.0)
GP3 experience also helps getting started in GP2 because the tires are much the same. Rossi and Frijns have experience in big cars, so it's not quite the same as coming in from F3 or FR2.0, as Nasr did the year before.

The year before or two years ago? When he ran F3 and then moved to GP2 for 2012. Either way, the point which you still didn't acknowledge is that just because they had a few runs in a car doesn't quantify once again into success for a full season in GP2 also WSR isn't that comparable 530 to 615 is a big leap just like 615 to 750(F1).

You're making it very clear that you don't watch GP2 and that you made up your mind off looking at results.

I've watched the races this year and that past couple years thanks for telling me otherwise. Watched Nasr drop to fourth as well, not sure what leads you to think I don't follow GP2.

Amazing things happen? Let's not revise history. He was solidly outperformed by Heidfeld, which is nothing to be ashamed of considering Kimi's lack of experience, but it wasn't amazing things. At the time, many thought Heidfeld deserved the McLaren seat over Raikkonen, despite Kimi's good rookie season. But nevermind, that's all irrelevant, we are talking about PRE-F1. We are talking about deserving a shot, not deserving to stay in F1.

No one is revising history, he should have been outperformed by the more experience Nick Heidfeld. Also I doubt you know what he did at Monaco and other places that showed his sheer skill that Heidfeld never had or will have compared to Raikkonen. He did deserve a shot I pointed it out already, which yet again you circumvented. Bravo!

Raikkonen dominated at that low level FR UK, but that's not entirely unusual at that level with highly varying (and usually pretty sparse) competition, Pizzonia a year earlier also dominated thoroughly. Gutierrez himself dominated Formula BMW when he was racing at that level.

So in other words Gutierrez is Pizzonia since Esteban wasn't as fast as you make him out to be in F3. Look you can do this pick and choose crap all day long, but to say one is better than another pre-F1 the only thing that separates Gutierrez is his GP2 since Pizzonia got called up before that. Point still remains as another well known racing follower has said and others in F1, Gutierrez is a pay driver that is why he is there and we may not see him next year if the Russia gets his FIA super license.

Make no mistake, Sauber were taking a risk with Kimi. It was similar to giving a ride to someone like Alessio Rovera right now.
What do you mean? Bigger is better?Kimi and Jenson is a very high level, but there was plenty to indicate he could have been better than Sutil before the season started. You just don't get it. No one is denying that Gutierrez' funding was a major factor in getting his seat, but it clearly wasn't the only consideration, which I argue his GP3/GP2 results and young age are.

Not what I was saying, I said talent was a factor but as I said prior it wasn't the first. Financial woes that privateer teams like Sauber and Williams have faced (FI too) are what is important. Hence Heidfeld being swapped out for Senna and Pastor being pulled in because of PDVSA. Audius showed a longer reputation at Sauber to get pay drivers to help them out with a good solid driver to help them in the championship.

Also if it's a high level why bring them up??

And funny you bring up Kobayashi because Kamui himself was poor in GP2 and only got his chance in F1 because of his relationship with Toyota. If Gutierrez didn't deserve his shot, Kamui sure as hell didn't.

Do you read the politics outside of racing, there are two portions of racing what goes on at the track and off. It was established that Kamui only got the seat at Sauber due to his hard racing for the time at Toyota, if there was an engine program that went with it like Sato and Honda or Nakajima and Honda, I could see money or partnership of sponsors being why Kobiyashi was picked.

Kobiyashi didn't have nearly as much backing after Toyota left and was a big reason to drop him after 2012, even though he didn't finish far behind Perez.

Also, if you think Gutierrez didn't deserve his shot, please name some alternatives.[/QUOTE]

I don't think anyone from the GP2 class of last year or this year deserves a drive, even Frijins is a bit shaky for me. I'm an American and I like Rossi, but I don't think he should get a chance either. If you had been here last year you'd have seen that many didn't peg any of the new drivers as being part of F1 on here and many didn't like the selection (other than Bottas). A WSR driver may have been better.

I'm not going to go too far in defending these guys (as they are the two I consider pure pay drivers in F1 right now, as I indicated previously), but I will say I'd rather have these two substandard drivers at the back of the grid instead of Deletraz or Mazzacane. As long as there are tiny backmarker operations struggling to survive, there will be pay drivers, but it's better to have guys that used to compete for GP2 wins over guys who made no impact in lower formula at all.

I love how you switch what pay driver you want to talk about to show this horrible scenario, or sustain the argument. They didn't constantly fight for wins like I showed. Let's be realistic, you talked about Pizzonia but since he actually won in lower forumlas and still was horrid you had to go back to Mazzacane which no one is asking for and is quite an extreme.

What is truely better is teams actually using the PR department or getting one and thus going to get their own damn sponsors and then bringing in actual racers. Not guys that pay to keep them on the grid and a hope that they'll either be good enough to get WDC/WCC points while bringing money to develop the car so they can be dropped for true racers.

What? You completely missed my point. I never said anything to indicate I expect anything from these two, other than that I expect both to not embarrass themselves (which they have done). You're putting words in my mouth.

How am I putting words in your mouth?

You try to make it seem as if F1 is populated by many low level pay drivers but that clearly isn't the case, in fact the overall quality is probably the best it's ever been.

You said the above and all I said that you clearly are confused by is that this isn't the best overall ever, its much of the same from past years, they do stupid mistakes and finish obviously in the back unless attrition helps them move further up. They bring big money that others drivers with more talent didn't bring when they joined. Those drivers also competed against others that weren't amazing and didn't win much against them. However, due to a somewhat decent season finish they were called to the top tier of open seat racing. I didn't put words in your mouth I simply am saying you seem to give them too much worth, if they were really worth something a seat at the upper mid or top teams would be made.

 

[SagarisGTB]

I give up, I give up. You're twisting my words, going off track and bringing up side points. I bring up Pizzonia as an example of someone who dominated FR UK (to prove you don't have to be great to win at the lowest levels of single seaters, hence Kimi being a risk) and you question why I don't use him as an example in a completely different unrelated point? I mention Kobayashi getting his chance for two races at Toyota without much merit and you start talking about Sauber...

I'm tired of talking about "pay drivers". Michael Schumacher and Alonso came into F1 as "pay drivers", they wouldn't have gotten their first seats without the money they brought to Jordan and Minardi respectively, it's not inherently worst thing in the world. Some pay drivers are very fast champions like Maldonado and others are average drivers like Sutil and others are talentless hacks like Pedro Diniz. I maintain that every driver on the grid, with the exceptions of VdG and Chilton, deserved a chance to prove themselves in F1, which is greater than how it was in the past. In the past, drivers of Chilton's caliber, like say Tarso Marques, were more prevalent on the grid when teams were coming and going, popping up and disappearing, rarely financially comfortable and needing pay drivers to operate. These days it seems that the drivers with big backing are at least showing a reasonable level of performance.

Of course, some drivers (like Gutierrez) haven't shown enough and should be dumped, but it's only easy to say I told you so in retrospect. Some drivers (Kobayashi for example) came into F1 without much merit but performed admirably, others (like Liuzzi) never lived up to their highly touted potential.

I will admit I made an error with this statement:

You try to make it seem as if F1 is populated by many low level pay drivers but that clearly isn't the case, in fact the overall quality is probably the best it's ever been.

It should probably read: You try to make it seem as if F1 is populated by many low level pay drivers but that clearly isn't the case, in fact this current era (since around 2006 or 2007) of F1 has probably maintained the best level of drivers it's ever had.

F1 started out with most of the grid being rich gentlemen and since then things have become more professional. There have always been pay drivers, some decent ones, some bad ones, but lately we've fortunately avoided most of the bad ones. Which is good so I'm not going to complain too much if we have the odd Chilton to deal with.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I give up, I give up. You're twisting my words, going off track and bringing up side points. I bring up Pizzonia as an example of someone who dominated FR UK (to prove you don't have to be great to win at the lowest levels of single seaters, hence Kimi being a risk) and you question why I don't use him as an example in a completely different unrelated point? I mention Kobayashi getting his chance for two races at Toyota without much merit and you start talking about Sauber...

I'm talking about Sauber to disprove he clearly didn't have that much sponsorship money. If Toyota had stayed as I said I'd have agreed with you. I too used the same point you are not trying to say you've made, and that is Esteban isn't great and using his limited success compared to other drivers (which you did) doesn't justify his talent or hint at why he drives for Sauber. However, having the richest man in the world backing him in sponsor money does validate it, especially when I keep informing you of the fact that Sauber have been hurting for money and are a well known group of the pay driver movement.

I'm tired of talking about "pay drivers". Michael Schumacher and Alonso came into F1 as "pay drivers", they wouldn't have gotten their first seats without the money they brought to Jordan and Minardi respectively, it's not inherently worst thing in the world. Some pay drivers are very fast champions like Maldonado and others are average drivers like Sutil and others are talentless hacks like Pedro Diniz. I maintain that every driver on the grid, with the exceptions of VdG and Chilton, deserved a chance to prove themselves in F1, which is greater than how it was in the past. In the past, drivers of Chilton's caliber, like say Tarso Marques, were more prevalent on the grid when teams were coming and going, popping up and disappearing, rarely financially comfortable and needing pay drivers to operate. These days it seems that the drivers with big backing are at least showing a reasonable level of performance.

Yeah they came in and actually performed and did amazing things that I have yet to see from Esteban. To use them as an example for any of the pay drivers this season is laughable. Even mentioning them if not implying a full on comparison only deters what they can do, all I ask is that younger drivers like Esteban stay in GP2 for a season longer. Also Schumi won in lower formula more so than Esteban and also raced in highly powerful Sportscars along with doing quite well. Alonso also won in lower class but like others during that time frame that were promoted quickly he was too, which proved a good move because like Kimi he proved he was fast in an even lower quality car than the Sauber. All of these feats are why I think and other thought they'd be good or great and they proved it. Esteban hasn't done anything in an F1 car to show me that he is someone I want to support. However, maybe if given the chance and a slightly better car he'll pull a Perez.

Of course, some drivers (like Gutierrez) haven't shown enough and should be dumped, but it's only easy to say I told you so in retrospect. Some drivers (Kobayashi for example) came into F1 without much merit but performed admirably, others (like Liuzzi) never lived up to their highly touted potential.

Yeah and I think Liuzzi is a damn joke as well. Well if you agree then why are you arguing with me?

I will admit I made an error with this statement:
It should probably read: You try to make it seem as if F1 is populated by many low level pay drivers but that clearly isn't the case, in fact this current era (since around 2006 or 2007) of F1 has probably maintained the best level of drivers it's ever had.

Understood I can somewhat get behind that more so than what you'd said prior.

F1 started out with most of the grid being rich gentlemen and since then things have become more professional. There have always been pay drivers, some decent ones, some bad ones, but lately we've fortunately avoided most of the bad ones. Which is good so I'm not going to complain too much if we have the odd Chilton to deal with.

True, but during that time frame those racers didn't have lower formula or other things to build up their potential and yet they ran and did amazing things. They did this in cars that were hard to handle and dangerous, and we've had bad ones actually and average. Klein, Senna, Narain, Yamamoto, Petrov and others leave a horrid taste just because they have money and now the new batch and potentially others for next year.

 

[Wardez]

I don't see it being those two, the Russian will probably get the license.

Oh, for sure, Sirotkin will get the seat, if not he'll at least have a 2012 Valtteri Bottas deal where he'll do Friday driving for sure. I'm just saying I think Bianchi would be a great fit. I doubt he'll go there though, hard to tell where he'll go, maybe Force India will take him if they drop Sutil or Di Resta moves somewhere else.

Bit of news on Kimster:
http://www.rtl.de/cms/sport/formel-...echselt-zu-ferrari-31ffa-3604-11-1623338.html

RTL thinks it's a done deal, tipping a pair up with Teflonso.

Kimi + Alonso is almost an unfair combination, can you ****ing imagine that?

I used to really hate Ferrari, but them making the moves they have recently, both technically and business wise, imagining those two leading the charge for the Scuderia... the feels.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Oh, for sure, Sirotkin will get the seat, if not he'll at least have a 2012 Valtteri Bottas deal where he'll do Friday driving for sure. I'm just saying I think Bianchi would be a great fit. I doubt he'll go there though, hard to tell where he'll go, maybe Force India will take him if they drop Sutil or Di Resta moves somewhere else.

Bit of news on Kimster:
http://www.rtl.de/cms/sport/formel-...echselt-zu-ferrari-31ffa-3604-11-1623338.html

RTL thinks it's a done deal, tipping a pair up with Teflonso.

Kimi + Alonso is almost an unfair combination, can you ****ing imagine that?

I used to really hate Ferrari, but them making the moves they have recently, both technically and business wise, imagining those two leading the charge for the Scuderia... the feels.

Well as I argued with another user, I too think it'd be great for Bianchi. However, Monisha is a econ major I think and she is looking at driver deals more for the business collaboration they bring more so than the talent.

I have stopped to think about Alonso/Kimi and as cool as I think it would be I don't think any top tier team should have two WDC at once. I don't feel any group (RBR, McLaren, or Ferrari) can treat both fair, McLaren seem to pick favorites as time goes on. The feels would indeed be their and I'm glad you and others see what I also see on the Ferrari end.

 

[zippy_the_cat]

Since this'll be the week Ferrari picks its driver I'll go on the record and say it'll be Kimi, though it would be smarter on their part to go with Hulkenberg. It's instructive that with their pick of drivers Red Bull made the Moneyball choice and opted for younger and cheaper rather than middle-aged and expensive. Ferrari isn't a Moneyball sort of operation so the Kimster would surely have the inside track over Hulkenberg.

Of course, Ferrari isn't a particularly smart operation so it wouldn't be a surprise at all if they kept Massa, despite his single-handedly killing their chances in the WCC the past 2 1/2 years. It's shocking the guy once came within seconds of winning the driver's title. I have recordings of the 2008 season and have been going through them lately; to my eye Massa would've been the worst driver to win the WDC in maybe ever (a distinction he and maybe 20 other guys on any given year's grid could live with, no doubt). What we see now is what was on display then -- the inconsistency, the occasional flashes of speed, the disappearing acts, the on-track klutziness, the needing to be babied/carried by his engineer, it was all there. No sane team owner would retain him when talents on the order of Raikkonen's and Hulkenberg's are available, but, hey, who ever said LdM was sane?

 

[SVT Cobra GT]

I'm quite looking forward to hearing Ferrari's announcement. I'm hoping it will be Kimi as then we'll have a juicy line up for next year. I think they will be pretty stupid to keep Massa as Zippy has pointed out above. He just isn't consistent enough. Hulkenberg would be a good choice but he would most likely go there as a No. 2 driver where as Kimi would go there and probably just match Alonso.

EDIT: Sirotkin will drive for Sauber next year. Subject to him getting a Super License.

http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1...ber-next-year-if-he-obtains-his-super-licence

 

[Wardez]

Silly season is reaching its pinnacle. Rumors are now swirling about Alonso going back to Enstone/Renault/Lotus. People know Kimi's going to Ferrari, but not who his teammate will be. They don't know if just Massa is leaving, or both him and Alonso.

Check Will Buxton's Twitter, and most any journalist or presenter really. It's blowing up right now.

 

[SVT Cobra GT]

Silly season is reaching its pinnacle. Rumors are now swirling about Alonso going back to Enstone/Renault/Lotus. People know Kimi's going to Ferrari, but not who his teammate will be. They don't know if just Massa is leaving, or both him and Alonso.

Check Will Buxton's Twitter, and most any journalist or presenter really. It's blowing up right now.

That IS the funniest thing I've heard about driver transfers. Alonso isn't going anywhere. Watch him leave now I've said that.

 

[Tom]

Silly season is reaching its pinnacle. Rumors are now swirling about Alonso going back to Enstone/Renault/Lotus. People know Kimi's going to Ferrari, but not who his teammate will be. They don't know if just Massa is leaving, or both him and Alonso.

Check Will Buxton's Twitter, and most any journalist or presenter really. It's blowing up right now.

He wouldn't go back. Lotus are having enough financial problems at the moment, hiring Alonso wouldn't help that.

 

[The Outlaw]

Silly season is reaching its pinnacle. Rumors are now swirling about Alonso going back to Enstone/Renault/Lotus. People know Kimi's going to Ferrari, but not who his teammate will be. They don't know if just Massa is leaving, or both him and Alonso.

Check Will Buxton's Twitter, and most any journalist or presenter really. It's blowing up right now.

I had a quick look at Buxton's Twitter this morning and it genuinely looked as if a spam bot had taken over

I seriously can't see Alonso going anywhere now that Ricciardo has signed with Red Bull. All this hype has been completely blown out of porportion (typically so) by the media trying to sell people hype and dramatics. A good portion of this hype has likely been exagerated based upon the special interest/posturing of certain individuals, in attempt to manipulate their contracts, potential signings, etc.

Risking a move back to Lotus is potential carreer suicide for Alonso, and I can't see him making that move considering the potential at Ferrari (not to mention the prestige & everything else that comes along with it), and having already made the mistake of going back to Renault in 2008, only to uselessly jump through hoops for 2 years. Also there are many other things to consider regarding Alonso's current position and why a move to Lotus makes little sense:

- Ferrari's recent acquisition of one of Lotus' keys to success (James Allison)
- Lotus' financial instability
- Santander's stronghold on where Alonso might go
- Drastic reg. changes for next year which is like taken a walk into the dark, while cutting the rope (Ferrari) behind you.
- Ferrari has consistantly been the 2nd best team beside Red Bull (who have been in another spectrum) over the past few years.

Just these few aspects make Alonso moving to Lotus sound completely illogical...and I think Alonso is too wise for such antics this late in his career.

Since this'll be the week Ferrari picks its driver I'll go on the record and say it'll be Kimi, though it would be smarter on their part to go with Hulkenberg. It's instructive that with their pick of drivers Red Bull made the Moneyball choice and opted for younger and cheaper rather than middle-aged and expensive. Ferrari isn't a Moneyball sort of operation so the Kimster would surely have the inside track over Hulkenberg.

Of course, Ferrari isn't a particularly smart operation so it wouldn't be a surprise at all if they kept Massa, despite his single-handedly killing their chances in the WCC the past 2 1/2 years. It's shocking the guy once came within seconds of winning the driver's title. I have recordings of the 2008 season and have been going through them lately; to my eye Massa would've been the worst driver to win the WDC in maybe ever (a distinction he and maybe 20 other guys on any given year's grid could live with, no doubt). What we see now is what was on display then -- the inconsistency, the occasional flashes of speed, the disappearing acts, the on-track klutziness, the needing to be babied/carried by his engineer, it was all there. No sane team owner would retain him when talents on the order of Raikkonen's and Hulkenberg's are available, but, hey, who ever said LdM was sane?

Despite all of this mud slinging, the proof is in the pudding and Massa outscored Raikkonen in their 2 1/2 year tenure together....not to mention, gave up a win at his home track so Raikkonen could win the title! So whatever basis to say Raikkonen would be a far better choice than Massa is a bit beyond me.

My instincts make me want to believe Raikkonen would do a fair bit better job than Massa has in the past 3 years or so (if he was in Massa's position), but it's hard to argue such, especially when you look at their results when they were ironically teamed up together at Ferrari.

 

[Ardius]

One of the reasons that Raikkonen is rumoured to be leaving Lotus is because he hasn't been paid his full salary and Lotus are struggling for cash. How would such a team afford Alonso?

But having said that, I can see either move happening, its not exactly the first time Alonso has gone to Enstone and Kimi isn't exactly the type of driver who cares about past history.

I can't help but feel that Alonso is staring down the very real possibility that he might not win another WDC before he retires if he isn't careful with his next career decision.

 

[zippy_the_cat]

Outlaw, my 2008 watch is complete through Spa. Raikkonen's season was scuppered by 1). Hamilton plowing into him in the Montreal pitlane and 2). His exhaust breaking at Magny Cours. Ferrari already had the WCC all but in the bag by the time the lights went out at Spa, so the WDC was the only thing left to play for. And the ITV commentary team (Brundle & Allen) was very clear that Ferrari was going to back Massa unless Kimi won Spa. He didn't (and didn't finish) so everything that happened afterwards that season has to be seen through that lens.

Massa had some good races but also some awful ones, Silverstone being the signature example of the latter. He inherited the Spa win with Hamilton's penalty but was well off the pace on a day when Kimi was relentlessly on it.

Kimi in comparison to today was a little more error prone, cf Australia, Monoco and Spa. And to be fair to Massa, it looks from Kimi's bad races that the 2008 Ferrari was a right handful in the wet.

 

[Ardius]

Klein, Senna, Narain, Yamamoto, Petrov and others leave a horrid taste just because they have money and now the new batch and potentially others for next year.

Klien doesn't deserve to be in that list. Actually, I don't really think any of those drivers are that bad, lacklustre yes and mainly slow, but "horrid taste"? There are far worse out there.

 

[SagarisGTB]

Zippy, since Massa was clearly at least a match with Raikkonen for 2.5 years, Alonso beating Massa one sidedly can be explained by either (1) Massa is not as good as he was before or (2) Raikkonen is not as good as many think he is. It has to be at least on or the other. Me, I think it's a little bit of both.

I'm talking about Sauber to disprove he clearly didn't have that much sponsorship money.

I brought it up and I was talking about Kamui's initial opportunity for Toyota at the 2009 Brazilian GP. Kobayashi did not prove himself in GP2, so he definitely wouldn't have gotten his chance if he wasn't a Toyota sponsored driver (and of course Glock's injury). Sauber would have never considered Kobayashi if he didn’t get a chance to show his skills in Brazil, and he got that chance due to preferential selection by being a Toyota driver (the manufacturer equivalent of pay drivers).

Yeah they came in and actually performed and did amazing things that I have yet to see from Esteban. To use them as an example for any of the pay drivers this season is laughable. Even mentioning them if not implying a full on comparison only deters what they can do, all I ask is that younger drivers like Esteban stay in GP2 for a season longer.

Fair enough, but I brought Schumi and Fonzo up because of your negative blanket statement in regard to pay drivers. It's easy to say Esteban is a failure pay driver in retrospect, but before he got his chance he was still an unknown with decent potential. You can say now "they came in and performed" but that wreaks of forming opinions in retrospect.

Yeah All of these feats are why I think and other thought they'd be good or great and they proved it. Esteban hasn't done anything in an F1 car to show me that he is someone I want to support. However, maybe if given the chance and a slightly better car he'll pull a Perez.

Again, we are debating Esteban’s merit for an initial chance at F1. I’m not arguing with you about if he deserves to be in F1 now, it’s about whether he deserved a chance to prove himself in the first place.

Well if you agree then why are you arguing with me?

Because you argue that Gutierrez should have never gotten a chance at F1 in the first place, which I disagree with, not that he should keep his seat next year or anything of the sort.

Klien doesn't deserve to be in that list. Actually, I don't really think any of those drivers are that bad, lacklustre yes and mainly slow, but "horrid taste"? There are far worse out there.

Agreed, Klien doesn't deserve to be in that grouping. I think Petrov has also proven to be decent as well, beating Heikki last year.

I think he doesn't realize that during the early 00s, 90s and before, F1 saw a lot of drivers of the caliber of Yamamoto and worse, far worse. Horrid creatures like Paul Belmondo and Jean-Denis Deletraz. These guys would make Van der Garde look like Schumacher in his prime.

 

[peter_vod69]

Looks like Kimi might be going back to the red team:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24016050

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

delete

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Zippy, since Massa was clearly at least a match with Raikkonen for 2.5 years, Alonso beating Massa one sidedly can be explained by either (1) Massa is not as good as he was before or (2) Raikkonen is not as good as many think he is. It has to be at least on or the other. Me, I think it's a little bit of both.

There are more variables than that. Massa's injury could be to blame. The ever diminishing lack of support after said injury could be another reason since Fernando has 2WDC.

I brought it up and I was talking about Kamui's initial opportunity for Toyota at the 2009 Brazilian GP. Kobayashi did not prove himself in GP2, so he definitely wouldn't have gotten his chance if he wasn't a Toyota sponsored driver (and of course Glock's injury). Sauber would have never considered Kobayashi if he didn’t get a chance to show his skills in Brazil, and he got that chance due to preferential selection by being a Toyota driver (the manufacturer equivalent of pay drivers).

And once again, my point is this, though that happened he didn't have solid sponsorship to keep going in F1 like the drivers that joined him and the one that replaced him. My issue is that Hulkenburg has shown that with ability you can run the Sauber in the points mid range or at least low range (9th or 10th). Though the car is clearly not as good as the STR, McLaren and earlier in the year FI. Esteban hasn't done that and surely a driver with talent would be able to at least put a challenger forth. The same driver (Hulk) could be argued to have done so against a seasoned driver in Rubens.

Fair enough, but I brought Schumi and Fonzo up because of your negative blanket statement in regard to pay drivers. It's easy to say Esteban is a failure pay driver in retrospect, but before he got his chance he was still an unknown with decent potential. You can say now "they came in and performed" but that wreaks of forming opinions in retrospect.

For Fernando sure, but you don't need retrospect to make that opinion because I look at the rookie seasons of both and prior that point to obvious speed, that Esteban hasn't shown. If I was looking at their titles or the contributions made toward WCCs then sure you could say that is how I'm forming, but that isn't the case and what I point to proves that is now my method. Not sure why you can't see that, but oh well. I'm also not giving negativity about pay drivers like Esteban, if me not willing to sugar coat and be blunt is negative then perhaps you should move on. Not trying to convey some animosity or have people extrapolate and say I am.

Again, we are debating Esteban’s merit for an initial chance at F1. I’m not arguing with you about if he deserves to be in F1 now, it’s about whether he deserved a chance to prove himself in the first place.

It's both actually, I brought this up with both in mind (pre-f1 and current) and the fact he has money mid and low level teams want. If you narrowed it down to one portion that isn't my fault. By showing the competition he fought wasn't very strong to begin with and he was as good and just younger with money it can then set up foundation that he probably wont be very good in F1 where the competition is actually more difficult. If you compare what his teammate (Hulk) did first time in GP2 and other upper level guys it is easy to see why one wouldn't expect him to be fast or anything more than mid level like Adrian Sutil as I said.

Because you argue that Gutierrez should have never gotten a chance at F1 in the first place, which I disagree with, not that he should keep his seat next year or anything of the sort. Agreed, Klien doesn't deserve to be in that grouping. I think Petrov has also proven to be decent as well, beating Heikki last year.

You just quoted me saying that I wanted to see him do one more season to refine his skill. I never said he shouldn't have ever had a chance at F1. Petrov and Heikki were on par, the only thing that people cling to is Brazil and attrition =/= speed from Petrov to bring the car to 11th. Also even if he beat Heikki I wouldn't cheer for that because I think HK isn't that good either especially when given a championship car and not managing much with it.

Klien doesn't deserve to be in that list. Actually, I don't really think any of those drivers are that bad, lacklustre yes and mainly slow, but "horrid taste"? There are far worse out there.

I'm sure the argument can be made, but you missed the central point which is they were pay drivers, and due to being such that is what left me with a horrid taste. If you enjoy them, good on you but I think it's obvious why they're not in F1 any longer.

 

[Ardius]

I'm sure the argument can be made, but you missed the central point which is they were pay drivers, and due to being such that is what left me with a horrid taste. If you enjoy them, good on you but I think it's obvious why they're not in F1 any longer.

Klien wasn't a pay driver, hence he doesn't deserve to be on your little list. I'm not really sure why you mentioned him at all, what was so "horrid" about him?

 

[SagarisGTB]

There are more variables than that. Massa's injury could be to blame. The ever diminishing lack of support after said injury could be another reason since Fernando has 2WDC.

Both of those fall under the umbrella of "(1) Massa is not as good as he was before", and the latter is not very likely based on how Alonso has been ahead with a similar gap from the very start.

I never said he shouldn't have ever had a chance at F1.

Then why did you reply to this:

Gutierrez is a Gp3 champ (over Wickens, Rossi, Coletti, Nico Muller), a race winner in GP2, and finished 2012 in 3rd place in GP2. He was more accomplished coming into F1 than Raikkonen, Sutil or Button for example. I too would wouldn't have promoted him over keeping Kobayashi, but the case that he didn't deserve a chance in F1 is rather hollow. The fact that he brings money is irrelevant when he has impressive enough qualifications.

...with an argument. The whole Gutierrez debate stems from this post; I said Gutierrez was accomplished enough in lower formula to deserve a chance in F1, you replied and countered, implying that you disagreed and thought he didn't.

Klien wasn't a pay driver, hence he doesn't deserve to be on your little list. I'm not really sure why you mentioned him at all, what was so "horrid" about him?

He wasn't a pay driver in his younger days with Jaguar but wasn't he a pay driver for his HRT stint, or am I imagining that based on how every other HRT driver was bringing in money?

 

[zippy_the_cat]

Massa's out:


Felipe1Massa @Felipe1Massa
From 2014 i will no longer be driving for Ferrari. I would like to thank the team for all the instagram.com/p/eFyM4QHLf1/

 

[Ardius]

Out of F1 forever? I can't see any other team taking him.

He wasn't a pay driver in his younger days with Jaguar but wasn't he a pay driver for his HRT stint, or am I imagining that based on how every other HRT driver was bringing in money?

It was never clear what the agreement was but Chandhok's sponsors didn't cough up enough dough and then Yamamoto's didn't either. I'm assuming by the end of that season, Kolles was paying for things out of his pocket as Senna certainly wasn't bringing a heap of cash (not enough to pay for the entire team).
No new sponsors appeared on the car when Klien drove and he doesn't have any personal sponsors or backing.

It was suggested at the time that Kolles was making a last-gasp attempt to secure 10th in the constructors by putting Klien in the car. It all started with Yamamoto being "unwell" for the Singapore GP.

Seeing as Klien continues to struggle to do more than a couple of races in odd series each year, I'm pretty sure he isn't sitting on a family fortune otherwise he'd have a permanent seat somewhere. Its not like he was slow and useless either.

 

[zippy_the_cat]

Out of F1 forever? I can't see any other team taking him.

Out of Ferrari, not necessarily F1. He's looking for another drive. Adam Cooper thinks he'll end up at Lotus -- which obviously would be a disaster for Hulkenberg.

 

[Bram Turismo]

What team would be dumb enough to favor Massa over Hulkenberg?

I mean, every team has now seen how slow Massa is in a car with which Alonso is still desperately fighting for the title with. Meanwhile Massa is nowhere.

I'll admit Hulkenberg hasn't been anything special so far yet. But it is clear that Hulkenberg has a lot more to offer than he does now, and definitely deserves a decent to drive. I have no idea what has happened with Sauber either. Kobayashi and Perez were doing wonders in that car. Now the Sauber team only races in the shadow of their former self, as implied by this year's livery on their car.

I can see teams wanting to pick him up to have an experienced driver, but if you're going for results then I don't think Massa would be on my list. Just get Stoffel Vandoorne in a car already! Or give D'Ambrosio a second chance, although he probably is happy with his role with Lotus at this point.