FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[thelvynau]

Yeah i will make a video probably this weekend if i have the extra time... Been a really busy week... It used to do it at least i will check... I did the comparison before the 2.00 update for GT5... Haven't done anything since... And i was talking about front wheel drive cars never tested it with rear wheel drives so not commenting on it...

When i said auto counter steer effect i didn't say it was a setting or programmed into GT5... For example in GT5 i race and drift... When i used to use the controller for drifting this is what i mean about auto contersteer effect... When you drift around a right hand turn you are counter steering to the left ok... If you look back at your front end you can clearly see the front wheels fluttering back and forth even when you have the joystick all the way over... That's what i meant by that... The with the wheel you steer at full lock it is at full lock...

Difference when you are racing with a controller vs. a wheel... Best way i can describe this is you can only turn a certain amount depending on your speed... With the wheel once again if you cut it all the way over the wheels are all the way over... That's the reason why i say these games if you are playing on a controller you're at a disadvantage and not playing the game to its full potential... Plus in real life you can't drive a car with a controller... Most cars on the road in real life have 900 degrees of steering... If you don't get what i am saying just ask i am trying to have a conversation on this... And i am listening to what you have to say too... I mean this is a comparison thread right? So why do some of you have to be rude and quote me saying sarcastic comments... I am sure you wouldn't appreciate me doing it to you so please give me the same courtesy or i am not going to waste my time...

I still don't understand your explaination on how torque steer is in gt5.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Can anyone vouch for him?

I don't think that would be a disadvantage because while at speed and taking corners, you're not using all 900 degrees to take corners. In this sense, the wheel and controller should be the same I think. If you mean a u-turn race, then the wheel user would definitely win.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaiIcI1xaLU">YouTube Link</a>

Please before i'm violated again: Use one period. Finish the sentence. Start a new one after. Rinse and repeat.

That video makes no sense on what i am talking about. I am talking about inside the car driving. At least on a average car that is.

What i explained above about the "full lock on a controller fluttering" and the fact that on GT5 you can't turn as tight on a controller as you can on a wheel. go try it on GT5 or i will demonstrate on GT5 this weekend i could just do that if anyone cares to see it first hand in a lounge or whatever. I have no problem doing so. But in many ways the true feel for any driving game is with a wheel. Does that not make sense?

I can't believe that this threat is still going - and much less can I believe the discussion at hand. You can't get full lock without a wheel? Yeah, big deal if you're not turning the front wheels at all

ORPHANTHIRTY7, do you know the difference between torque steer and oversteer? Because you're talking so much about drifting and counter-steering that it sure seems like you're mixing them up.

Anyways, as has been said before: Wheel or not, there's no torque steer in GT5. And I love how a lot of people here have been presenting all kinds of clues, evidence, experience and sound logic to support that fact while the "there is torque steer in GT"-faction doesn't.

Well i was trying to make a point about the how things in the comparison i did in trying to determine how the physics in the games compare to real life.
And yes i do know the difference between oversteer and torque steer. Which i had explained. Like i said before torque steer existed in GT5 at least before the 2.00 update i haven't tested it out since. I was using drifting as a example for what i was saying about the wheel vs. controller because someone said "why does it matter if he or she was one a wheel" that's why i went there. But if you don't think wheels make a difference in a racing game then i don't know what to say. But if there isn't torque steer anymore in at least front wheel drive cars in GT5 (which in all reality i haven't driven one in a very long time and just to clarify i was talking about front wheel drive cars only) i am sorry for even mentioning it.

 

[Luminis]

Does that not make sense?

It does. It just isn't making torque steer appear out of nowhere. The game doesn't model torque steer, so wheel or not, you're not gonna experience it. No matter how much the feel of the game changes for you.

So, you rant about how you need a wheel is entirely, 100% pointless to support your theory that torque steer is in GT5. In fact, trying to bring that up to avoid the question at hand isn't exactly helping you. Quite the opposite.

 

[thelvynau]

That video makes no sense on what i am talking about. I am talking about inside the car driving. At least on a average car that is.

What i explained above about the "full lock on a controller fluttering" and the fact that on GT5 you can't turn as tight on a controller as you can on a wheel. go try it on GT5 or i will demonstrate on GT5 this weekend i could just do that if anyone cares to see it first hand in a lounge or whatever. I have no problem doing so. But in many ways the true feel for any driving game is with a wheel. Does that not make sense?

What does that have to do with torque steer?

 

[Lock2Lock]

It does. It just isn't making torque steer appear out of nowhere. The game doesn't model torque steer, so wheel or not, you're not gonna experience it. No matter how much the feel of the game changes for you.

So, you rant about how you need a wheel is entirely, 100% pointless to support your theory that torque steer is in GT5. In fact, trying to bring that up to avoid the question at hand isn't exactly helping you. Quite the opposite.

Edited my post above read please

 

[thelvynau]

Edited my post above read please

So are you saying there is torque steer or not?

 

[Scaff]

On the torque topic... What i mean in the video the guy put up was of a 427 cobra that was on gambon corner of the top gear test track... And when he took off from a stop the car did a burnout and then spun with no steering applied... And it was very easy to duplicate i bought the car and tried it and it did the same thing... Only this i couldn't duplicate was the car sliding that far into the grass because in GT5 you can't... But it will do that with a wheel or without...

That 'guy' was me and I will be quite amazed if you can duplicate it in GT5, because no one has to date managed to do so (nor will they), here's a 427 on CM's failing to do it:



Different track, but that doesn't make a bit of difference.

Torque steer does happen in GT5 on the launch... Front wheel drive cars you defiantly see that... Torque steer with a front wheel drive is only noticed with a wheel... If you guys would like in the next couple days i will take a few minutes to show you in a video i wl record... Or if you want probably this weekend i will have more time and i can show you on skype with a camera....

And here we have a FWD car in GT5 failing to torque steer:



and for comparison FM4:



Its not strong enough for the car in FM4, but a t least it occurs.

I await your videos with interest.

 

[Lock2Lock]

So are you saying there is torque steer or not?

Saying there was before the 2.00 update... Only felt on a wheel with none racing tires. When i have more time i will try again with the same car if i have it and see if the 2.00 update did anything make this not happen. If the same thing doesn't repeat i will agree with you that there's (at least not anymore) no torque steer in GT5

 

[thelvynau]

Saying there was before the 2.00 update... Only felt on a wheel with none racing tires. When i have more time i will try again with the same car if i have it and see if the 2.00 update did anything make this not happen. If the same thing doesn't repeat i will agree with you that there's (at least not anymore) no torque steer in GT5

Im pretty sure there never was torque steer.

 

[Scaff]

Saying there was before the 2.00 update... Only felt on a wheel with none racing tires. When i have more time i will try again with the same car if i have it and see if the 2.00 update did anything make this not happen. If the same thing doesn't repeat i will agree with you that there's (at least not anymore) no torque steer in GT5

Pre or post 2.00, GT (the whole series) has never had torque steer from a standing start.

 

[thelvynau]

Pre or post 2.00, GT (the whole series) has never had torque steer from a standing start.

Thanks scaff i couldnt say for sure on release as i didnt have the game back then.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Just found my old camera where i had recorded it... I just never posted it up on YouTube... At azur i will be uploading it in a few


I will upload it and post the link when i wake up. I just finished working on 15 computers from work and i am tired.

 

[Da-Bomber]

One of the many reasons why drag racing feels so dead in gt5.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Hum that actually uploaded quickly. Here's the link. Like i said a long time ago i recorded it before the 2.00 update.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxiqpFbJa8U&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Like i said before i don't know if you're still able to do it.
I am sorry to put it like this but if no one believes it. Well i am sorry i offered you the best proof that i can. If that isn't good enough i am sorry

 

[thelvynau]

Hum that actually uploaded quickly. Here's the link. Like i said a long time ago i recorded it before the 2.00 update.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxiqpFbJa8U&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Like i said before i don't know if you're still able to do it.
I am sorry to put it like this but if no one believes it. Well i am sorry i offered you the best proof that i can. If that isn't good enough i am sorry

It looked like you turned the wheel hard to see

 

[Scaff]

It looked like you turned the wheel hard to see

One of the nice things about GT is that when you turn the wheel the driver looks towards the 'apex', the drivers head can be seen to move in relation to the steering each time in that video.

I video I posted clearly show the steering/brake/throttle indicators to rule out that happening. However it is dead easy to do with a controller (as GT5's FFB can throw a wheel out unrealistically) as you can just leave the steering alone and bury the throttle, step off the brake and away you go.

Do that with FM4 and the car will spin (via rear wheel torque not the steering), do it with GT5 and it will not, and that has nothing at all to do with steering assistance for a controller.

 

[Luminis]

So are you saying there is torque steer or not?

He's saying that there was torque steer which misteriously went away, so we should just believe. Because, unfortunately, there's no way for him to prove it anymore. So he's trying to distract us with the whole "a wheels changes everything" crap.

I was using drifting as a example for what i was saying about the wheel vs. controller because someone said "why does it matter if he or she was one a wheel" that's why i went there. But if you don't think wheels make a difference in a racing game then i don't know what to say.

See what I mean? None of that has any relation to torque steer. It's entirely pointless.

Nobody here will disagree that racing games, especially sims, feel different with a wheel. But that has nothing to do with the debate at hand.

If someone's telling you an obviously red wall is painted red, do you go on and say "yeah, but it's made of bricks so it isn't red"?

Oh, and for the video: You can clearly see the driver's head moving (as it always does when you're turning in GT5) right before the Cobra drifts off. Fake "evidence" is fake. Obviously. Now, if the "GT5 models torque steer" guy has to resort to fake evidecen to support his claim, is that enough to finally end this debate? There is no torque steer in GT5 and there never was, at no point.

 

[thelvynau]

One of the nice things about GT is that when you turn the wheel the driver looks towards the 'apex', the drivers head can be seen to move in relation to the steering each time in that video.

I video I posted clearly show the steering/brake/throttle indicators to rule out that happening. However it is dead easy to do with a controller (as GT5's FFB can throw a wheel out unrealistically) as you can just leave the steering alone and bury the throttle, step off the brake and away you go.

Do that with FM4 and the car will spin (via rear wheel torque not the steering), do it with GT5 and it will not, and that has nothing at all to do with steering assistance for a controller.

I went and looked again im convinced he turned the wheel thanks scaff.

 

[Samus]

Hum that actually uploaded quickly. Here's the link. Like i said a long time ago i recorded it before the 2.00 update.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxiqpFbJa8U&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Like i said before i don't know if you're still able to do it.
I am sorry to put it like this but if no one believes it. Well i am sorry i offered you the best proof that i can. If that isn't good enough i am sorry

The drivers head moved so you must have turned the wheel. The idea is to take your hands off the wheel and go full throttle.

 

[TokoTurismo]

The drivers head moved so you must have turned the wheel. The idea is to take your hands off the wheel and go full throttle.

No he didn't, I saw the driver's hands the steering wheel didn't move period. The driver's always look at certain places on tracks when the cars are parked.

By the way was that online? Cuz your car turned ghost. I also think torgue isn't in GT5.

 

[Tornado]

The driver's always look at certain places on tracks when the cars are parked.

It didn't in Scaff's video with the same car in the same section of track.

 

[TokoTurismo]

It didn't in Scaff's video with the same car in the same section of track.

In Scaff's video he went a little further up and not the other way nor near a wall, thus the driver won't turn his head I think. Sometimes the avatars normally do that in GT5 on certain tracks, don't know why though. :\

And please don't say "Oh well post a video of that." Cuz I'm not getting myself in this. I already know which game has better physics.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

The drivers head moved so you must have turned the wheel. The idea is to take your hands off the wheel and go full throttle.

Which is actually why testing for torque steer is preferable on the controller; there's no room for driver error with the steering. I've covered this a bunch of times now (though without the irrefutable video evidence that Scaff's provided), and yet still, every couple weeks, somebody comes along with delusions of torque steer in GT5. The 2.00 update didn't magically erase it, it's not only available on certain drivetrains, it just flat-out doesn't exist in the GT universe.

No he didn't, I saw the driver's hands the steering wheel didn't move period. The driver's always look at certain places on tracks when the cars are parked.

Like Toronado said, Scaff's driver didn't look around, nervously, like he's trying to hide something...

What we are seeing in Orphan's video is the result of wheelspin and inertia rotating the car once it's trajectory has already been modified, by the driver. Nobody will argue that's possible in GT5, but no car will change its trajectory on it's own in the game. SSRX is the handy tool in proving this, because even a Speed 12 on crap tires will launch arrow-straight, every time.

So, you agree that "torgue" (torque steer?) isn't in GT5, so why are you siding in favour of this video?

 

[TokoTurismo]

like toronado said, scaff's driver didn't look around, nervously, like he's trying to hide something...

The avatars can be random at times wth their heads in gt5, its at certain areas. I know for sure in forza 4 the driver's head turns when steering the wheel.

 

[Samus]

Can't say I've seen that myself, they just lean into corners as you steer.

 

[TokoTurismo]

Can't say I've seen that myself, they just lean into corners as you steer.

Not sure why they were doing that to be honest. lol.

 

[dice1998]

No he didn't, I saw the driver's hands (on?) the steering wheel didn't move period.

That's funny because either my eyes are bad or Bob did turn the steering wheel to the left.

0:15 mark.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Having a friend right now doing it to your guy's satisfaction with a controller. It is still doing it. And what i do know about that 2.00 update and maybe a couple before PD was messing with the physics for the tires. It seems to still do it with a lot of cars on comfort hard tires. Want the video?

 

[1241Penguin]

Yes please, and make sure we can see your controller the whole time.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Yes please, and make sure we can see your controller the whole time.

You didn't listen to what i said above. Just was in the same room with a friend and his car does it. Got a great view of the front wheels the whole time. You can clearly see he didn't turn the wheels at all. I am uploading it right now to YouTube


Here's the new video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HRArmHNUCY&feature=youtube_gdata_player