Kim Jong Il is dead

[prisonermonkeys]

They believe that the "West" is oppressive and "evil" simply because their leader says so (if I have read it correctly).

That's a very simple version of it, but it's essentially correct. To understand why they are taught this, you really have to go back to the reasons for the Korean War, to why the peninsula was split in the first place, and the actions of Kim Il-sung, Kim Jong-il's father. It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg scenario, because Kim's reign was validated by his peoples' total acceptance of him, but at the same time, they would not accept him without him being their ruler in the first place. But the North Koreans are taught from birth that Kim was a near-divine ruler turning the country into paradise on earth; that if they suffered, it was for the benefit of North Korea; and that outside influences who disagreed with the philosophy of juche (a kind of self-reliance established by Kim Il-sung) were corrupting and decadent and evil.

 

[CMvan46]

It's really a fascinating place to look at. A place so oblivious to the rest of the world and essentially brain-washed from birth that North Korea is the best place on earth. Although is that really all that different from how it is here? Besides the fact we have the freedom to leave the country whenever we like. Most of us would still do anything for our countries and that's ingrained in us from birth. I'd love to see into that country and to really know what day to day life is like for those people.

 

[PeterJB]

It's patriotism taken to the extreme really. For all we know it could be a normal society, but if they are forbidden from leaving the country or establishing any kind of contact with the outside world, and of course Kim can afford to amass a giant army but can't afford to feed his own people, then there is clearly something wrong.

 

[Submerged]

Maybe it isn't patriotism taken to the extreme. It could be like what happened toward the end of Nazi Germany, when most sane people realised that the leaders were crazy. They had to go along with the whole show as their lives depended on it and they weren't in a position of power to do anything about it.

 

[Peter.]

Seriously? The man wasn't as terrible as Usama, but I doubt there are any South Koreans who are feeling like you do right now.

Who died and made anyone Judge of who deserves and who does not deserve to be respected upon death? Treat persons as you would want them to treat you. You wouldn't want me to have a party when you die, now would you?

This isn't :censored:ing news. What the 🤬 has this world come to?

No need to curse, but I do agree with you there. It just shows how much the music industry is corrupting and brainwashing society. That though, is a whole different discussion. I've never heard of her before, and don' intend to now.

 

[Peter.]

Doubles, my bad.

 

[theotherspongey]

'‎State television announcer weeps while announcing Kim's death' - What. The. Hell. We're meant to feel sorry for these people who suffered under his rule, and yet one of their number goes and sheds tears for a psychopathic loser. She should be partying (I know I would be if our Federal 'leader' kicked the bucket).

Remember that Communism doesn't really have free speech...she was probably acting.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Remember that Communism doesn't really have free speech

Yes, it does. Communism is the political belief that everything belongs to the people - its name is derived from "community". There is nothing in the communist philosophy that denies free speech. My best friend came from the only country in the world where a communist party was democratically-elected, and she said that it was just fine. The oppression comes from the people running the country, who do not want to hear a dissenting opinion, for whatever reason.

...she was probably acting.

No, she wasn't. She was an announcer on a state-owned news station - with North Korea's reputation for ruthlessly uprooting dissent, such a position would be one where the person holding it would need extraordinary dedication and loyalty.

You seem to be under the impression that the North Koreans are sufferring in silence, tolerating their oppression only for as long as they have to and will break out into Democracy! the minute it presents itself. This is not the case. North Koreans are indoctrinated from birth to believe that their way of life is ideal, and that Kim Jong-il is a benevolent father figure who is in the process of shaping the country into paradise on earth. They genuinely believe that this is the case, because they have no alternative and they have no experience of the outside world. If you lived in a commune where you had been taught from birth that the sky is green, you would believe it, because you would not know otherwise, and you would have no reason to question those teaching you.

 

[Blitz187]

^ Very well said! That is exactly it... Some of the poeple commenting in there should watch some documentaries on North Korea. Things like this are discussed at length in them. The general population simply doesnt know any better.

 

[a6m5]

But saying that the worst of the American evil was "stuff for the history book" isn't quite true.

For the two things I noted, yes, it is very true.

I'm not denying that a country like the U.S. can commit some horrible crimes. Quite the contrary. As I said, I believe many nations do, and will continue to do so, because ultimately, we are all human.

My history book comment was in regards to slavery & treatment of Native Americans, which is huge, and it is in the past. And the point I was making was, what troubles me about North Korea, this crime of epic proportion, it is still ongoing today.

I just don't get the comparison to United States, Russia or Cuba. They are Disneyland heaven utopia compared to North Korea. Tightness of control practiced by North Korea doesn't not begin to compare the freedom enjoyed by the citizens of other (even)communist nations.

 

[slowman]

I just don't get the comparison to United States, Russia or Cuba. They are Disneyland heaven utopia compared to North Korea. Tightness of control practiced by North Korea doesn't not begin to compare the freedom enjoyed by the citizens of other (even)communist nations.

The difference is most governments around the world expend effort to provide the illusion of freedom, some more than others. North Korea makes no effort towards this whatsoever. They're very overt in their position that as a citizen of NK, your person and the products of your labor are owned by the state 100%. If you're not a citizen of North Korea, simply look up your income tax bracket to find out what percentage of a slave you are.

I'm not saying I necessarily believe the above statement, but one could make the argument.

 

[CMvan46]

The difference is most governments around the world expend effort to provide the illusion of freedom, some more than others. North Korea makes no effort towards this whatsoever. They're very overt in their position that as a citizen of NK, your person and the products of your labor are owned by the state 100%. If you're not a citizen of North Korea, simply look up your income tax bracket to find out what percentage of a slave you are.

I'm not saying I necessarily believe the above statement, but one could make the argument.

I'll agree. I think very much of what we perceive as freedom is much an illusion. We are controlled and guided towards certain actions all through life. Our public schools teach us what they want us to know, our government has confidential information, and we have numerous layers of government and law enforcement to keep us on the straight and narrow.


Our governments shape our belief system from the time we enter school and I had a history professor do a pretty cool lesson with us on communism and democracy in a class. He described communism as a place where everybody helps everybody and everything is shared. People work collectively to make sure everybody is fed, has a bed to sleep in, and there is very little class separation because everything is shared. Everyone here is equal (besides leaders).

Democracy has a strong class system because nothing is equal and everything is not shared. In fact very little is shared and other than as a profession that demands it people are not forced to work together and may live without any social interaction all their lives. You must earn your right, by working and earning money, to own a bed and to own a house.


He then asked which one seems better now? This is likely the way it's sold to people living in communist countries as it doesn't seem so bad right now? Obviously there are enormous flaws that arise from everything being shared and there being no real competition. Nobody has an incentive to work very hard because it doesn't mean you'll be any more "rich." There are a ton more reasons that I'm sure I don't have to spell out but it is more complicated than it looks

 

[McLaren]

Who died and made anyone Judge of who deserves and who does not deserve to be respected upon death? Treat persons as you would want them to treat you. You wouldn't want me to have a party when you die, now would you?

And, how exactly again did Kim Jong-Il treat his own people again? Oh, that's right, like a tyrant who put strict laws into place & kept his people in poverty through brainwashing, & killing/imprisoning those who dared to speak out or praised western civilization

Since you believe that you should treat people as you would like to be treated, I'm treating him the exact same way he would treat my death as a believer in the western civilization; joyous. You going to tell me next that we should respect Usama's death as well?

 

[terminator363]

LOL & how exactly again did Kim Jong-Il treat his own people again? Oh, that's right, like a tyrant who put strict laws into place & kept his people in poverty, killing/imprisoning those who dared to speak out or praised western civilization.

Since you believe that you should treat people as you would like to be treated, I'm treating him the exact same way he would treat my death as a believer in the western civilization; joyous.

👍 Nice comeback.

 

[theotherspongey]

Yes, it does. Communism is the political belief that everything belongs to the people - its name is derived from "community". There is nothing in the communist philosophy that denies free speech. My best friend came from the only country in the world where a communist party was democratically-elected, and she said that it was just fine. The oppression comes from the people running the country, who do not want to hear a dissenting opinion, for whatever reason.

No, she wasn't. She was an announcer on a state-owned news station - with North Korea's reputation for ruthlessly uprooting dissent, such a position would be one where the person holding it would need extraordinary dedication and loyalty.

You seem to be under the impression that the North Koreans are sufferring in silence, tolerating their oppression only for as long as they have to and will break out into Democracy! the minute it presents itself. This is not the case. North Koreans are indoctrinated from birth to believe that their way of life is ideal, and that Kim Jong-il is a benevolent father figure who is in the process of shaping the country into paradise on earth. They genuinely believe that this is the case, because they have no alternative and they have no experience of the outside world. If you lived in a commune where you had been taught from birth that the sky is green, you would believe it, because you would not know otherwise, and you would have no reason to question those teaching you.

How on Earth can you assume that from a few words? That's not even close to what I think.

 

[a6m5]

The difference is most governments around the world expend effort to provide the illusion of freedom, some more than others. North Korea makes no effort towards this whatsoever. They're very overt in their position that as a citizen of NK, your person and the products of your labor are owned by the state 100%. If you're not a citizen of North Korea, simply look up your income tax bracket to find out what percentage of a slave you are.

I'm not saying I necessarily believe the above statement, but one could make the argument.

I'll agree. I think very much of what we perceive as freedom is much an illusion. We are controlled and guided towards certain actions all through life. Our public schools teach us what they want us to know, our government has confidential information, and we have numerous layers of government and law enforcement to keep us on the straight and narrow.


Our governments shape our belief system from the time we enter school and I had a history professor do a pretty cool lesson with us on communism and democracy in a class. He described communism as a place where everybody helps everybody and everything is shared. People work collectively to make sure everybody is fed, has a bed to sleep in, and there is very little class separation because everything is shared. Everyone here is equal (besides leaders).

Democracy has a strong class system because nothing is equal and everything is not shared. In fact very little is shared and other than as a profession that demands it people are not forced to work together and may live without any social interaction all their lives. You must earn your right, by working and earning money, to own a bed and to own a house.


He then asked which one seems better now? This is likely the way it's sold to people living in communist countries as it doesn't seem so bad right now? Obviously there are enormous flaws that arise from everything being shared and there being no real competition. Nobody has an incentive to work very hard because it doesn't mean you'll be any more "rich." There are a ton more reasons that I'm sure I don't have to spell out but it is more complicated than it looks

There is control, there are rules & guidelines. This can be considered an illusion, or some sort of smokescreen only if one doesn't care to pay attention. Seems like you two are aware of it, and so am I. If they are paying some C.I.A. Scientist to brainwash us, I guess they are not being very pushy about it. I think some care to know, they do see the world for what it is. Majority are happy to live life within the said rules. The powerful stretching control over the population, according to the history books I've read, it's pretty much an absolutely certain pattern.

What I don't get is, how does this compare to North Korea capturing anybody who doesn't worship Kim Family? I mean, we can debate all day long about how United States control the mass with their currency, regulations, media, etc., etc. But are they mass murdering anyone who makes Obama jokes?

None of us live in perfect freedom. Agreed. Horrible things take place in North Korea, and that's the only point I'm making.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

How on Earth can you assume that from a few words?

Because I pay attention. Because I read a lot. Because North Korea's systematic indoctrination of its people to believe Kim was a God among men is well-documented. Now, if this outpouring of grief were limited to the news anchor and the new anchor alone, then perhaps I can stomach the idea that she was acting for the cameras. But watch this:



Do you mean to tell me that you think an entire nation is simply play-acting?

That's not even close to what I think.

And you are basing this belief on ... what? You think the news anchor is acting for the cameras because you cannot picture yourself reacting that way to news of Kim's death, knowing what you know about life in North Korea? Reality check: North Korea doesn't view itself the way you do. Its people are taught from birth that North Korea is a paradise on earth, shaped by the hands of Kim Jong-il himself to be the nation that all others aspire to be. And even though we can see the horrendous treatment of political prisoners, the widespread famine with occasional reports of cannibalism, the nuclear weapons programs, and Kim's lavish lifestyle while his people starve, the people do not see it. They believe that if they are suffering, it is for the good of the nation. I can almost hear you asking "How can they possibly believe that? It makes no sense to me." Well, the reason why they can believe that is the same reason why twenty-four men can believe that flying jet aeroplanes into buildings is God's will: they have faith, and faith is perhaps the most terrifying and dangerous force known to man. It cannot be quantified. It defies scientific explanation. It is completely ephemeral. The very same force that can lead people like Nelson Mandela to free a nation from tyranny and oppression can be harnessed by men like Kim Jong-il to impose their will onto an entire nation. You claim that life in North Korea cannot exist as shown because you cannot believe it. The inconsolable truth is that life in North Korea exists despite your inability to believe it.

Before you post in this thread again, I suggest you go and read up on North Korea. Don't just limit yourself to Wikipedia. Go out and find some actual content on the subject. Otherwise, you're just going to embarrass yourself by denying everything simply because you do not know anything outside your way of life. Ironically, this is exactly what is happening to the people of North Korea: they deny that there is anything wrong with their way of life because they know nothing of the outside world (other than what they are taught, and they are taught that it is corrupt and decadent and evil).

 

[CMvan46]

There is control, there are rules & guidelines. This can be considered an illusion, or some sort of smokescreen only if one doesn't care to pay attention. Seems like you two are aware of it, and so am I. If they are paying some C.I.A. Scientist to brainwash us, I guess they are not being very pushy about it. I think some care to know, they do see the world for what it is. Majority are happy to live life within the said rules. The powerful stretching control over the population, according to the history books I've read, it's pretty much an absolutely certain pattern.

What I don't get is, how does this compare to North Korea capturing anybody who doesn't worship Kim Family? I mean, we can debate all day long about how United States control the mass with their currency, regulations, media, etc., etc. But are they mass murdering anyone who makes Obama jokes?

None of us live in perfect freedom. Agreed. Horrible things take place in North Korea, and that's the only point I'm making.

Oh god I absolutely agree. Never would I ever wish anybody to have to live in a place like that. I'm just trying to make others aware that although the tactics are drastically different many of the results are similar. I still rather have secret agencies secretly spying on populations and guiding us towards what they would like us to act like through our public schools, tv, and media over a dictator no allowing me to have TV or Internet.

 

[Cano]

And you are basing this belief on ... what? You think the news anchor is acting for the cameras because you cannot picture yourself reacting that way to news of Kim's death, knowing what you know about life in North Korea? Reality check: North Korea doesn't view itself the way you do. Its people are taught from birth that North Korea is a paradise on earth, shaped by the hands of Kim Jong-il himself to be the nation that all others aspire to be. And even though we can see the horrendous treatment of political prisoners, the widespread famine with occasional reports of cannibalism, the nuclear weapons programs, and Kim's lavish lifestyle while his people starve, the people do not see it. They believe that if they are suffering, it is for the good of the nation. I can almost hear you asking "How can they possibly believe that? It makes no sense to me." Well, the reason why they can believe that is the same reason why twenty-four men can believe that flying jet aeroplanes into buildings is God's will: they have faith, and faith is perhaps the most terrifying and dangerous force known to man. It cannot be quantified. It defies scientific explanation. It is completely ephemeral. The very same force that can lead people like Nelson Mandela to free a nation from tyranny and oppression can be harnessed by men like Kim Jong-il to impose their will onto an entire nation. You claim that life in North Korea cannot exist as shown because you cannot believe it. The inconsolable truth is that life in North Korea exists despite your inability to believe it.

Before you post in this thread again, I suggest you go and read up on North Korea. Don't just limit yourself to Wikipedia. Go out and find some actual content on the subject. Otherwise, you're just going to embarrass yourself by denying everything simply because you do not know anything outside your way of life. Ironically, this is exactly what is happening to the people of North Korea: they deny that there is anything wrong with their way of life because they know nothing of the outside world (other than what they are taught, and they are taught that it is corrupt and decadent and evil).

Post of the year right there. In a good way.

also:

 

[a6m5]

I don't think any of us here know to what degree North Korean people might be brainwashed.

Sure, they are exposed to their propaganda from birth....... but there were plenty of Pre-Korean War generation during Kim Il Sung & Kim Jong Il-era. Also, number can't be great, but there were Koreans who bought into communist ideal, and joined North Korea Post-Korean War.

Another fact is North Koreans bail out of their country all the time, through the Chinese border, of course. Many succeed, many more fail.

Way I see it, when you are used to people disappearing around you, secret police and their associates are keeping eyes on your moves, you will live under fear. Out of fear, you would submit, or at least act submissive.

Again, I don't think anybody on gtplanet would know for sure.

 

[nk4e]

A6, have you watched the documentary already?

 

[a6m5]

Probably not.

 

[nk4e]

There is a documentary in the first couple of pages, it is split into 5 parts about NK.

 

[RTSolvalou]

Korea has some kind of Animal Farm situation, with a splash of that old-ish television program 2030CE, and on top, everything's in monochrome.


(close enough)

 

[a6m5]

There is a documentary in the first couple of pages, it is split into 5 parts about NK.

Right off the bat: "The unimaginable horrors the people risk their lives to escape...."

It's late now, but I'll be sure to watch them later this week. 👍

Edit: Ended up watching a lot of it now. It confirmed a lot of things I believed about North Korea, except it might be even worse than I originally believed.

 

[theotherspongey]

Because I pay attention. Because I read a lot. Because North Korea's systematic indoctrination of its people to believe Kim was a God among men is well-documented. Now, if this outpouring of grief were limited to the news anchor and the new anchor alone, then perhaps I can stomach the idea that she was acting for the cameras. But watch this:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSWN6Qj98Iw">YouTube Link</a>

Do you mean to tell me that you think an entire nation is simply play-acting?

And you are basing this belief on ... what? You think the news anchor is acting for the cameras because you cannot picture yourself reacting that way to news of Kim's death, knowing what you know about life in North Korea? Reality check: North Korea doesn't view itself the way you do. Its people are taught from birth that North Korea is a paradise on earth, shaped by the hands of Kim Jong-il himself to be the nation that all others aspire to be. And even though we can see the horrendous treatment of political prisoners, the widespread famine with occasional reports of cannibalism, the nuclear weapons programs, and Kim's lavish lifestyle while his people starve, the people do not see it. They believe that if they are suffering, it is for the good of the nation. I can almost hear you asking "How can they possibly believe that? It makes no sense to me." Well, the reason why they can believe that is the same reason why twenty-four men can believe that flying jet aeroplanes into buildings is God's will: they have faith, and faith is perhaps the most terrifying and dangerous force known to man. It cannot be quantified. It defies scientific explanation. It is completely ephemeral. The very same force that can lead people like Nelson Mandela to free a nation from tyranny and oppression can be harnessed by men like Kim Jong-il to impose their will onto an entire nation. You claim that life in North Korea cannot exist as shown because you cannot believe it. The inconsolable truth is that life in North Korea exists despite your inability to believe it.

Before you post in this thread again, I suggest you go and read up on North Korea. Don't just limit yourself to Wikipedia. Go out and find some actual content on the subject. Otherwise, you're just going to embarrass yourself by denying everything simply because you do not know anything outside your way of life. Ironically, this is exactly what is happening to the people of North Korea: they deny that there is anything wrong with their way of life because they know nothing of the outside world (other than what they are taught, and they are taught that it is corrupt and decadent and evil).

Still; not even close to what I think.
Stop putting words in my mouth.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Then what do you think? You haven't actually said anything beyond "I think she is acting", which she clearly isn't.

 

[Pupik]

Then what do you think? You haven't actually said anything beyond "I think she is acting", which she clearly isn't.

I can't tell anyone how to grieve, but it has the appearance of artifice; yet these are people who venerated their Leader with the same reverence as some would apply to their mother and father, or even Jesus Christ. Most people do not grieve well in public either, because these are people who also do many things collectively, rather than independently. This explains a lot of the awkwardness, in my opinion.

Their world is likely shattered, to some extent, because they know of little else. North Koreans mostly have no idea of any other nation, ideology, religion, history, or culture other than their own, due to government restraints on...well, everything.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

There appears to be a power stuggle in Pyongyang, with three rival factiions vying for control under Kim Jong-un.

 

[PeterJB]

They all worked for Jong-Il. No rush for a revolution then.