FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[MHPALA]

Lumis is right GT and FM are labeled as semi-sims or simcade games where they are in the grey area. Not really a sim, but more advance than an arcade racer. You want a true ring then get a PC rig, get you some iRacing or rFactor or wait for rFactor2 to come out and then you can't complain ever again. Simple as that and the sooner people realize there is a world outside their little feeble game console the faster these lame debates can end.

(sorry off topic)
But i'm confused. PD and T10 have more resources than the companies that create the pc sims. Even look at at the sever cluster used for simulation at PD. What makes a pc sim better? Is it a stereo-type people use because of the name "PC". They all provide the same physical entities. Is it the accessory customization like button boxes etc? I know that the console sim's physics engine can include a tire slip angle, longitudinal and lateral forces and the effects in wet and dry conditions(durr), transitional change in camber from lateral forcer, and all the other tire model goodies. I know that in my mind pc and console sims are on par unless someone gives me a quantitive difference how their tire models differ.

* arcade sim racer? Look up the definition of a arcade game. Now think, I have 2 clusters of nvidia tesla cpgpu servers. I shall use that power to simulate a car and how it reacts in its normal native environment. So with my 2 server clusters computing a real simulation. What is the pc sim labled as ? A arcade racer?

 

[JDMKING13]

(sorry off topic)
But i'm confused. PD and T10 have more resources than the companies that create the pc sims. Even look at at the sever cluster used for simulation at PD. What makes a pc sim better? Is it a stereo-type people use because of the name "PC". They all provide the same physical entities. Is it the accessory customization like button boxes etc? I know that the console sim's physics engine can include a tire slip angle, longitudinal and lateral forces and the effects in wet and dry conditions(durr), transitional change in camber from lateral forcer, and all the other tire model goodies. I know that in my mind pc and console sims are on par unless someone gives me a quantitive difference how their tire models differ.

PC sims are the way to go, however it's to crazy what you have to spend and do to get the experience I will stick to my GT5 and FM4 👍

 

[Daverytimes]

(sorry off topic)
But i'm confused. PD and T10 have more resources than the companies that create the pc sims. Even look at at the sever cluster used for simulation at PD. What makes a pc sim better? Is it a stereo-type people use because of the name "PC". They all provide the same physical entities. Is it the accessory customization like button boxes etc? I know that the console sim's physics engine can include a tire slip angle, longitudinal and lateral forces and the effects in wet and dry conditions(durr), transitional change in camber from lateral forcer, and all the other tire model goodies. I know that in my mind pc and console sims are on par unless someone gives me a quantitive difference how their tire models differ.

* arcade sim racer? Look up the definition of a arcade game. Now think, I have a 2 clusters of nvidia tesla cpgpu servers. I shall use that power to simulate a car and how it reacts in its normal native environment. So with my 2 server clusters computing a real simulation. What is the pc sim labled as ? A arcade racer?

PC sim's are a step above anything on consoles, that is already established. We only look forward to the day someone has the balls to bring PC racing sim experience to console peasants.

 

[MHPALA]

PC sims are the way to go, however it's to crazy what you have to spend and do to get the experience I will stick to my GT5 and FM4 👍

True, people shouldnt underestimate console sims. Like with GT5, why have a cluster of servers to simulate cars and tires? I actually have more respect to PD for finding all the answers on their own (long wait). If you can dumb down a complex algorithm to be computed on a low power console, then you my friend are breaking barriers in technology. I am a HUGE microsoft tool, but give gt5 time, it shall pwn.

 

[Daverytimes]

True, people shouldnt underestimate console sims. Like with GT5, why have a cluster of servers to simulate cars and tires? I actually have more respect to PD for finding all the answers on their own (long wait). If you can dumb down a complex algorithm to be computed on a low power console, then you my friend are breaking barriers in technology.

True that, it's amazing how much both developers can do with such little power.

 

[timeatkuu]

Instead of opinions, lets lay down FACTS about each game as to why one is "better" than the other from a semi-unbiased point of view (I own both - as many users do). This is very fair to do so seeing that GT5 Spec 2.0 clearly was released to compete with the launch of FM4.

Things GT5 does better:

• track accuracy (judging from more accurate lap times + this could be an indication of better physics(?)) & attention to detail
• time & weather change (for certain tracks only)
• variety of racing (dirt, snow, and tarmac + karts, NASCAR, etc.)
• sound physics (Doppler effect, echoing, etc.. Although I mention this, I haven't really noticed these effects in my FM4 play-through thus far. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong)
• creation of custom tracks
• photo-mode has more features
• ONLY with regards to PREMIUM, graphics are much better
• this last point is sort of game related, but GT5 has proven its ability in "training" ( / assisting )(semi-) pro race car drivers

Things FM4 does better:

• cleaner, more focused car roster
• offers cosmetic tuning/customization on almost all vehicles (both games have in-depth mechanical tuning w/ a slight edge to FM series)
• car sounds are more raw and submerge the player more
• has additional online features such as leader boards, rivals mode, auction house, and clubs
• all cars (except for the "beloved" unicorns) are readily available to purchase
• more freedom in career mode
• prize system is more personalized
• Autovista (although its only for about 25 vehicles, it is much more innovative than that thing called "Museum" in GT5)
• cosmetic damage (since both have great mechanical damage)
• detailed interior view for all vehicles

Both games offer 16 player online, lobby systems, car classes, physics that many may call "Sim-arcade", and their own approach to mini-games; be it License Testing and Special Events in GT5, and Bowling and Tag in FM4.

As for the A.I. - I don't really even want to go there. If you want to RACE - go play multiplayer (in either game). I am yet to experience an M. Rossi moment like that of FM3, and in GT5 I do find the A.I. intelligent enough to know I'm ton the track (as many would like to argue otherwise). The A.I. is enough in both games to play against (using Arcade mode in GT5 for comparison since A-Spec hasn't seen an improvement).

In conclusion, I find that FM4 better appeals to a car enthusiasts needs/wants as I find it captures the current car culture much better (especially with a more in-depth inclusion of Top Gear a la Jeremy Clarkson). GT5 on the other hand appeals to those who are more into the history of vehicles (inclusion of variations of the same cars that have received minor mechanical changes which allows players to experience the differences), or just want a great drive/race (well at least it fills my desires for driving/racing much better).

And yes. Although I had wanted to stay away from opinions, the last two paragraphs are littered with them. Enjoy

P.S. As for wheel support, MS doesn't seem to give/get any love. A proper "entry level" wheel costs an arm and a leg.

P.P.S. One more opinion, I absolutely hate the different surfaces in FM4. They act extremely unrealistic, slowing cars from +200km/h to 0km/h almost instantaneously. However, this is a good balancing mechanism to eliminate shortcuts. Take some to gain some?

P.P.P.S. One more thing, there is an in-game steering aid that cannot be turned off in FM4 for some reason :S Please fix this :S

 

[JDMKING13]

Instead of opinions, lets lay down FACTS about each game as to why one is "better" than the other from a semi-unbiased point of view (I own both - as many users do). This is very fair to do so seeing that GT5 Spec 2.0 clearly was released to compete with the launch of FM4.

Things GT5 does better:

• track accuracy (judging from more accurate lap times) & attention to detail
• time & weather change (for certain tracks only)
• variety of racing (dirt, snow, and tarmac + karts, NASCAR, etc.)
• sound physics (Doppler effect, echoing, etc.. Although I mention this, I haven't really noticed these effects in my FM4 play-through thus far. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong)
• creation of custom tracks
• photo-mode has more features
• ONLY with regards to PREMIUM, graphics are much better
• this last point is sort of game related, but GT5 has proven its ability in "training" ( / assisting )(semi-) pro race car drivers

Things FM4 does better:

• cleaner, more focused car roster
• offers cosmetic tuning on almost all vehicles (both games have in-depth mechanical tuning w/ a slight edge to FM series)
• car sounds are more raw and submerge the player more
• has additional online features such as leader boards, rivals mode, auction house, and clubs
• all cars (except for the "beloved" unicorns) are available to purchase
• more freedom in career mode
• prize system is more personalized
• Autovista (although its only for about 25 vehicles, it is much more innovative than that thing called "Museum" in GT5)
• cosmetic damage (since both have great mechanical damage)

Both games offer 16 player online, lobby systems, physics that many may call "Sim-arcade", and their own approach to mini-games; be it License Testing and Special Events in GT5, and Bowling and Tag in FM4.

As for the A.I. - I don't really even want to go there. If you want to RACE - go play multiplayer (in either game). I am yet to experience an M. Rossi moment like that of FM3, and in GT5 I do find the A.I. intelligent enough to know I'm ton the track (as many would like to argue otherwise). The A.I. is enough in both games to play against (using Arcade mode in GT5 for comparison since A-Spec hasn't seen an improvement).

In conclusion, I find that FM4 better appeals to a car enthusiasts needs/wants as I find it captures the current car culture much better (especially with a more in-depth inclusion of Top Gear a la Jeremy Clarkson). GT5 on the other hand appeals to those who are more into the history of vehicles (inclusion of variations of the same cars that have received minor mechanical changes which allows players to experience the differences), or just want a great drive/race (well at least it fills my desires for driving/racing much better).

And yes. Although I had wanted to stay away from opinions, the last two paragraphs are littered with them. Enjoy

P.S. As for wheel support, MS doesn't seem to give/get any love. A proper "entry level" wheel costs an arm and a leg.

P.P.S. One more opinion, I absolutely hate the different surfaces in FM4. They act extremely unrealistic, slowing cars from +200km/h to 0km/h almost instantaneously. However, this is a good balancing mechanism to eliminate shortcuts. Take some to gain some?

P.P.P.S. One more thing, there is an in-game steering aid that cannot be turned off in FM4 for some reason :S Please fix this :S

A man great post even though I don't agree with all you points you are fair. 👍

 

[phillgt2002]

Taken by me. Forza 4 is officially on the same level of detail as GT5

 

[sugarload]

I dont get people who keep saying stuff about PC's being the ultimate for sims whereas consoles are not? Last I looked, consoles are really computers as well. They have a CPU and are dedicated to the task given.

Here is what I say...

If you want a "REAL DRIVING SIM"

the do this...

http://www.virtualgt.com/

That will be better than all the sims that we are all arguing about.


As Far as my own experience, GT5 does very well for what it is, and the behaviour of certain vehicles especially the Nissans seem very accurate to real life.


Edit: maybe some mean to say the 'software' --like iRacing--on computers are better.

I personally see no reason why a console in our day and age, can't handle or be up to the task.

 

[HAL20XX]

@ Hal Don't bother man They are not red anymore like you said it's not a bigie but I just don't understand why they did this.

So apparently they're red during normal play, but they turn gray in photo mode. Looks like it's just an oversight on T10's side.

 

[JDMKING13]

So apparently they're red during normal play, but they turn gray in photo mode. Looks like it's just an oversight on T10's side.

OK awesome they can easily fix that, can you try the ek9?

 

[Mac K]

Anyone seen autoblogs contest? They're giving away their reviewed copy of FM4 and a press kit, the article explaining it seems way to biased though, I'd link it but i'm on my IPod.

 

[desperado]

Things GT5 does better:

• track accuracy (judging from more accurate lap times + this could be an indication of better physics(?)) & attention to detail

• 
  
  Not offering an opinion here (I have driven none of the tracks in real life so have no reference!) but lap times could be more accurate if you had inaccurate circuits and physics, just be a case of tweaking things to 'trick' it. Really the only judge of how accurate a track is is comparing it to real reference GPS data, something none of us can do.
  
  Saying that though, at least from a visual perception level the GT5 ring is much nicer!

 

[timeatkuu]

Not offering an opinion here (I have driven none of the tracks in real life so have no reference!) but lap times could be more accurate if you had inaccurate circuits and physics, just be a case of tweaking things to 'trick' it. Really the only judge of how accurate a track is is comparing it to real reference GPS data, something none of us can do.

Saying that though, at least from a visual perception level the GT5 ring is much nicer!

I've definitely thought the same thing. PD could have perhaps skewed their game to give a more "accurate" output to make us believe its more realistic than its competition (kind of like the shady business of pharmaceuticals).

On a side note, I've never driven on any of these track either

 

[TiZzla]

You guys crack me up. I only came into these forums to see what Forza 4 would be like after I saw some Autovista shots and thought the game was actually that good.

Have fun with your arcade racer 👍

 

[HAL20XX]

You guys crack me up. I only came into these forums to see what Forza 4 would be like after I saw some Autovista shots and thought the game was actually that good.

Have fun with your arcade racer 👍

Enjoy being smug 👍

 

[FyreandIce]

You guys crack me up. I only came into these forums to see what Forza 4 would be like after I saw some Autovista shots and thought the game was actually that good.

Have fun with your arcade racer 👍

You have fun with yours too

 

[Frozzy]

As good as the physics and graphics are in GT5. I can't help but be jealous of what FM4 offers when it comes to content.

 

[Vaxxtx]

You guys crack me up. I only came into these forums to see what Forza 4 would be like after I saw some Autovista shots and thought the game was actually that good.

Have fun with your arcade racer 👍

Let me fix that for you.

I have not played FM4, but I have seen how good it is, and it bothers me, because I only GT5. So I just came in here to make myself feel better by bashing a game I never played.

Have fun playing your awesome game, I am taking my toys and going home...I didnt want to play with you anyway. 👍

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

(sorry off topic)
But i'm confused. PD and T10 have more resources than the companies that create the pc sims. Even look at at the sever cluster used for simulation at PD. What makes a pc sim better? Is it a stereo-type people use because of the name "PC". They all provide the same physical entities. Is it the accessory customization like button boxes etc? I know that the console sim's physics engine can include a tire slip angle, longitudinal and lateral forces and the effects in wet and dry conditions(durr), transitional change in camber from lateral forcer, and all the other tire model goodies. I know that in my mind pc and console sims are on par unless someone gives me a quantitive difference how their tire models differ.

* arcade sim racer? Look up the definition of a arcade game. Now think, I have 2 clusters of nvidia tesla cpgpu servers. I shall use that power to simulate a car and how it reacts in its normal native environment. So with my 2 server clusters computing a real simulation. What is the pc sim labled as ? A arcade racer?

No the physics behind PC sim is not like that of a console first off, it is better it's not a bias for PC sims by any mean, just the factual figures that should be shown for any "real racing sim" argument. Obviously PC hardware is going to be more significant than that of a Console and what you buy with a PS3 or 360 is what your stuck with, unlike that of computers that are always being updated thus your gaming experience evolves. I guess Moore's Law shows a great effect on console you could say.

If you want exactly how tire models differ I'd go ask the more hardcore rFactor and iRacing fans, cause I've just started to dip my feet in the PC sim racing world. PC games can be played at full HD (1920×1080) and beyond, with adjustable anti-aliasing and graphics controls, and usually at higher framerates. Also real timed events are what some look for, in a real car turning the wheel doesn't give you delayed feedback, but a console game seems to have that more so than PC sims. Like others have said until someone can make some quantum leap like jump in the realm of console, unless you have the money then just put up with it, but it is nice to let people know the truth. Consoles by the time you get them have already started to become inferior to PC, but then again that seems to be why it is so easy to multiples titles out on a console for one. Thus why we have the video game market.

A sim racer whould be rFactor 1 or 2, or iRacing...GT5 or FM4 are what you'd call a semi-sim or simcade. Like Lumis already said, they aren't full sims cause of how they function, but they also don't function fake or overdramatic like as you'd see with an Arcade. So they work somewhere in the middle and which works best is what seems to truely be the argument...not who is the best sim cause neither of them are the best. However, one is better than the othe (GT5 vs FM4 that is) but in different areas obviously.

PC sims are the way to go, however it's to crazy what you have to spend and do to get the experience I will stick to my GT5 and FM4 👍

I can understand the PC part but beyond that there are communities of good size for multiple cheap download great sim racers like GT legend, Grand Prix Legends, rFactor, Live for Speed, ect. I'd say iRacing is the real pricey one out of the bunch but probably the best close to real experience you can get.

 

[SaMbO_OCAU]

Taken by me. Forza 4 is officially on the same level of detail as GT5

is there a 'Hella' on the inside of the glass like in GT5?

 

[sugarload]

LMSCorvetteGT2

Obviously PC hardware is going to be more significant than that of a Console

Depends on the timing. As hardware increases no doubt. If you look at the ps3 for example, it has been used in clusters...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(microprocessor)

The United State's Air Force Research Labs will be deploying a cluster of 1760 PlayStation 3's nicknamed the "Condor Cluster." It will be used to analyze large high resolution satellite imagery. According to Air Force claims, the Condor Cluster is the 33rd largest supercomputer in the world in terms of capacity.

The ps3 came out with an incredibly powerful cell processor, that took years for regular cpu manufactures to catch up to.

Also, computers are processing things that consoles(consoles being dedicated) are not. They have the overhead of tasks that are going on and take up the system resources. High end gamers usually try and shut off as much as possible to get higher performance.



Not to say that I don't personally enjoy doing things on my PC, rather, that the day and age of consoles being 'not up to it' are surely far gone. I can only imagine the future generations of playstations and x-box's.

If anything, fans of both Forza and GT5 can look forward to some incredible simulations in the future as the consoles coming with be absolutely incredibly powerful.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

LMSCorvetteGT2


Depends on the timing. As hardware increases no doubt. If you look at the ps3 for example, it has been used in clusters...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(microprocessor)


The ps3 came out with an incredibly powerful cell processor, that took years for regular cpu manufactures to catch up to.

Also, computers are processing things that consoles(consoles being dedicated) are not. They have the overhead of tasks that are going on and take up the system resources. High end gamers usually try and shut off as much as possible to get higher performance.



Not to say that I don't personally enjoy doing things on my PC, rather, that the day and age of consoles being 'not up to it' are surely far gone. I can only imagine the future generations of playstations and x-box's.

If anything, fans of both Forza and GT5 can look forward to some incredible simulations in the future as the consoles coming with be absolutely incredibly powerful.

The AirForce obviously did such to save money, I can't say I disagree with you I too think Console can catch up, but once again they are not updated like a PC. Moore's law shows quite so and if we dwell into more technical field we will see that the PC even will have to up itself to something new just to keep up. I don't doubt that my PS3 has a powerful system under it, yet looking out how things are and with the new racers that have come out...seem to be going...I think for now it is safe to say that even the next Gen will be beat by PC gaming. The problem is that you can't just build a system that isn't updated against one that is and expect the same results.

Sim wise PC is much better, gaming wise console is more diverse and open.

 

[another_jakhole]

FM4 to me suits the real gear-heads, real men who know how a car feels and reacts. I think the majority of GT fanboys are just that...BOYS who've never stepped behind the wheel of any high-hp car or a car period.

IMO FM4 gives a raw(analog) visceral feel to each car. And I'm getting this feeling playing with the controller, can't imagine how much more I'll be immersed into the game once I invest in a wheel.

Honestly man thats cool you feel that way I respect your opinion, but you play with a controller I can't really take your argument serious. Second have you ever heard about GT Academy they will disagree with you 100%

There's, actually, a 19 year old that has BARELY (only hours) any experience driving a car. He was in the top 3 when they check lap times on more than one occasion.

I would have never believed it if I didn't see, so if you don't believe me, tooo bad.


The photomode in FM4 is definitely better than GT5's for the most part. Good job, Hollywood. It's funny that's who we have to thank.

 

[azrael1965]

After testing Forza 4 a few hours i can't make a fair comparison. GT5 + T500RS just feels so much better at driving than Forza 4 + MS wireless X-Box Wheel and i know it's because of the wheel.
To have a fair comparison i would need to have a CSR with club Sport pedals at least.
But the improvements to Forza 3 are significant and instantly noticeable.

 

[FyreandIce]

Ditch the T500 and get the CSR. Compatible across all platforms and is an extremely good wheel.

 

[azrael1965]

Ditch the T500 and get the CSR. Compatible across all platforms and is an extremely good wheel.

I won't do that because i am really happy with the T500 RS. It is so much better then my Logitech wheel but i might get a CSR or CSR Elite later. My wife would kill me if i do this now. Furniture for the new home has to come first. Do you guys think the CSR Elite would still work with the next X-Box? It would be handy to know, cause the set will likely cost more then the console. If i really ditch the T500RS it would have to be for the Elite, a CSR would be kind of a step back. But i haven't seen any reviews of elite yet.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I dont get people who keep saying stuff about PC's being the ultimate for sims whereas consoles are not? Last I looked, consoles are really computers as well. They have a CPU and are dedicated to the task given.

Here is what I say...

If you want a "REAL DRIVING SIM"

the do this...

http://www.virtualgt.com/

That will be better than all the sims that we are all arguing about.


As Far as my own experience, GT5 does very well for what it is, and the behaviour of certain vehicles especially the Nissans seem very accurate to real life.


Edit: maybe some mean to say the 'software' --like iRacing--on computers are better.

I personally see no reason why a console in our day and age, can't handle or be up to the task.

This made me laugh (The part I bolded). You do realise VirtualGT is just a place where you have a rig with a G25 setup and bunch of PC sim titles, well going by the video it is. They have upgraded the hardware going by the website images though. I think mainly top F1 teams have their own specialized simulator. Red Bull do use rFactor Pro so that would similar to the rFactor PC sim. Ferrari used NetKar Pro for Ferrari Virtual Academy.

 

[phillgt2002]

,

 

[Astro_BS-AS]

Not offering an opinion here (I have driven none of the tracks in real life so have no reference!) but lap times could be more accurate if you had inaccurate circuits and physics, just be a case of tweaking things to 'trick' it. Really the only judge of how accurate a track is is comparing it to real reference GPS data, something none of us can do.

Saying that though, at least from a visual perception level the GT5 ring is much nicer!

It has already been done. Toyota has videos of that, replicating laps in GT5 with GPS taken data.

FM4 is a great game. No doubt about it

But to say "GT5 lap times are almost identical to Real Life lap times because PD cheated" is being far far away from reality.